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2017 Las Vegas Strip shooting: 59 dead, 527 injured

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Original post by QE2
And heroin can be used as an effective pain killer.
The "guns for protection" argument has been thoroughly debunked. A US study showed that you are 4 times as likely to be shot if you keep a gun in the house than if you don't. Keeping guns actually puta your family at more risk!

So it is only reasonable to make sure that all these "sick people" (remember that there about 30,000 gun deaths in the US each year) don't have easy access to specially designed killing machines. Also worth bearing in mind that it is often difficult to predict or detect mental health issues before they impact on people's lives - especially as many of the most at-risk population may soon have no health cover!

I understand fairly well having spent most of my gap year there.

The thing that many people seem to misunderstand when they say that the constitution in immutable is that it isn't. And do you know how we know that it can be amended?
Yes, you've got it...the amendments!
There is absolutely no reason whay the 2nd Amendment can't be removed or itself amended.

Only so some people.
To others they represent what they hate most about their country. I know because they've told me!

It is only the gun lobby that is preventing change. Many people and politicians would gladly strengthen controls today.

I don't see what's wrong with that. It is the situation in most developed countries and they all have lower rates of homicide by firearm than the US does now, despite the millions of armed civilians preventing the criminals from committing any crime!

Where do you think criminals get most of their guns from?
Yes, they buy them legally, they buy them from someone else who obtained them legall, or they steal them from someone who has bought them legally. Criminals don't manufacture guns. They all originate from a legal source!
Taking guns out of circulation and restricting access to them makes it harder for criminals to get them. It really is that simple.

I've said this before. Talking to pro-gun supporters is like talking to religionists. There is no reason or logic behing their arguments, just assertion and belief.


Surely you jest. In your scenario, ALL the guns obtained by criminals were obtained legally one step back. Let me extend a bit of education: Nearly all criminals are convicted felons. That is usually the definition of "criminal". As such, they are PROHIBITED FROM TOUCHING FIREARMS!! That is the current law. That means they cannot BUY them! They get their weapons the same way they get their illegal drugs - they buy them down in an alley - often from their drug dealer. Many weapons in the US are smuggled in, just like they are in the Uk. Others are stolen [you DID get that one right]. Some are stolen from the military. In order to eliminate these weapons, you must disarm the military. Perhaps they can throw flowers at ISIS next time they are attacked. That might work. According to Fed statistics, gun owners use their weapons to prevent crime about 2.5 million times per year. Most of these occasions result in no shots fired.

In the Uk, 59% of burglaries are "hot" burglaries [committed when the residence is occupied]. In the US, only 13% are hot burglaries. Of individuals shot during the commission of a crime: 71% had prior arrest records, 64% had been convicted of a crime. Each had an average of 11 prior arrests. 63% of crime victims had a crime history, 73% knew their assailants. In D.C. [which essentially prohibits private ownership of guns], the murder rate is 56.9 per 100,000. Just across the Potomac river, in Arlington, Virginia, where handgun ownership IS permitted, the murder rate is 1.6 per 100,000.
Reply 281
Original post by Underscore__
I’m not disputing any evidence. I’m saying you haven’t provided any evidence that shows a causal link between gun ownership and likelihood of being a homicide victim, by gun, in your home. Have you forgotten the ‘correlation does not imply causation’ phrase?
Is there anything other than a gun that can cause a shooting fatality?

Every homicide by firearm has been directly caused by a gun. To claim that there is no connection between firearms deaths and firearms is one of the most extreme cases of denying reality that I have come across!

Likewise, insisting that reducing the availability of guns will not reduce the number of firearms deaths is simply denying the evidence of every case where gun controls have been introduced.

I suppose that you would claim that owning a car is not a contributary factor in the likelihood of dying in a car crash, and the fact that people who never travel in cars are unlikely in a car crash is pure coincidence.

If you can show a case where increased gun control has led to an increase in gun deaths in the general public, I will be very surprised.
Reply 282
Original post by Rabbit2
Surely you jest. In your scenario, ALL the guns obtained by criminals were obtained legally one step back. Let me extend a bit of education: Nearly all criminals are convicted felons. That is usually the definition of "criminal". As such, they are PROHIBITED FROM TOUCHING FIREARMS!! That is the current law. That means they cannot BUY them! They get their weapons the same way they get their illegal drugs - they buy them down in an alley - often from their drug dealer. Many weapons in the US are smuggled in, just like they are in the Uk. Others are stolen [you DID get that one right]. Some are stolen from the military. In order to eliminate these weapons, you must disarm the military. Perhaps they can throw flowers at ISIS next time they are attacked. That might work. According to Fed statistics, gun owners use their weapons to prevent crime about 2.5 million times per year. Most of these occasions result in no shots fired.
As I said, practically every illegally held gun started life as a legal one.
Reduce the availability of legal guns and you reduce the availability of illegal ones. It really isn't rocket science.

In the Uk, 59% of burglaries are "hot" burglaries [committed when the residence is occupied]. In the US, only 13% are hot burglaries. Of individuals shot during the commission of a crime: 71% had prior arrest records, 64% had been convicted of a crime. Each had an average of 11 prior arrests. 63% of crime victims had a crime history, 73% knew their assailants.
And if guns were as readily available in the UK as they are in the US, do you think that these crimes would result in more or fewer shootings?

In D.C. [which essentially prohibits private ownership of guns], the murder rate is 56.9 per 100,000. Just across the Potomac river, in Arlington, Virginia, where handgun ownership IS permitted, the murder rate is 1.6 per 100,000.
Ownership of handguns is not prohibited in DC. Almost every control brought in over the last few decades has been declared unconstitutional on appeal. The only thing that is prohibited in DC is "open carry" and "concealed carry" within 1000 feet of a school, college, playground or community centre.

Also, the murder rate per 100,000 is 24.2 in DC and 4.6 in Virginia (DoJ/FBI)

And remember, the gun lobby's argument against gun control isn't that it won't reduce gun deaths. It is, as Jim Jeffries so eloquently put it "I ****ing like guns! Don't take my guns!"
Original post by QE2
Is there anything other than a gun that can cause a shooting fatality?


Is there anything other than the gun in your house that can cause a shooting fatality in your house? Yes, maybe one of the over 180,000 armed robberies that happened last year, not to mention any other incidents of someone with a gun entering your home.

Original post by QE2
Every homicide by firearm has been directly caused by a gun. To claim that there is no connection between firearms deaths and firearms is one of the most extreme cases of denying reality that I have come across!


This is the straw man you’ve continually pushed, at this point it’s clear you either really struggle with reading or, more likely, you’re being wilfully ignorant. I haven’t claimed that guns aren’t connected to firearm deaths. I’m asking for evidence that shows there’s a causal link between having a gun in your house and being more likely to be a homicide victim, by gun, in your house. The article you posted listed several other possible causes, for example, those who live in high crime areas are more likely to own a gun to protect themselves but because of the area they live in they are more likely to be shot. In that instance it’s not the presence of a gun in their home causing the increased risk.

Original post by QE2
Likewise, insisting that reducing the availability of guns will not reduce the number of firearms deaths is simply denying the evidence of every case where gun controls have been introduced.


I haven’t ‘insisted’ that to be true. I simply pointed out how many illegal guns there are in the US and then also gave you statistics on how criminals source their guns. The vast majority of people who use firearms in a crime didn’t obtain it legally so banning guns isn’t necessarily going to fix the issue. I also pointed out that drugs are illegal yet tonnes are still imported, it’s perfectly feasible to think the same could well happen with guns. I haven’t said that banning guns wouldn’t help, I’m showing you why it’s wrong to assume that would be the case.

Original post by QE2
I suppose that you would claim that owning a car is not a contributary factor in the likelihood of dying in a car crash, and the fact that people who never travel in cars are unlikely in a car crash is pure coincidence.


As I’ve said above, an article you posted listed several other potential factors that could explain the link between gun ownership and homicide by gun in the home.

Original post by QE2
If you can show a case where increased gun control has led to an increase in gun deaths in the general public, I will be very surprised.


Where have I said that banning guns will lead to an increase in gun deaths? As I’ve said there is no other country like the US when it comes to guns. Australia destroyed about 2% of all of the legal guns that exist in the US, the ban in the UK took away less than 0.7% of the number of guns in the US. They are one of the only countries in the world that classifies gun ownership as a human right. Their culture on guns is not comparable to any country who has banned guns. If you tried to ban all guns you’d probably start a civil war

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