Thoughts on Medical Degree Apprenticeship

What do you guys think of the medicine apprenticeship that is being made ? Personally I think it’s **** and unfair for people in medical school as they are racking up £45,000+ of debt to get a high value of knowledge while someone who is doing an apprenticeship is just gonna walk around a hospital watching without any knowledge on what’s going on and why

What do you guys think of the medicine apprenticeship that is being made ? Personally I think it’s **** and unfair for people in medical school as they are racking up £45,000+ of debt to get a high value of knowledge while someone who is doing an apprenticeship is just gonna walk around a hospital watching without any knowledge on what’s going on and why

What do you guys think of the medicine apprenticeship that is being made ? Personally I think it’s **** and unfair for people in medical school as they are racking up £45,000+ of debt to get a high value of knowledge while someone who is doing an apprenticeship is just gonna walk around a hospital watching without any knowledge on what’s going on and why

this is a very privileged mindset. a lot of people drop out of med school because it is too expensive and pushes them out, apprenticeships are made so people can earn on the job and since medicine is so practical what better way to learn than to witness first hand (alongside classroom learning of course). i think it's a great idea, don't go to med school if you dont want to but dont s**t on the value of apprenticeships because u think you're superior

https://www.hee.nhs.uk/news-blogs-events/news/new-medical-doctor-degree-apprenticeship-launched-delivering-more-representative-workforce-local?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=Orlo



This should be interesting to see what will happen. I know that pre-pandemic, there was discussions of a conversion course for pharmacists, physios and some nurses (essentially condensed MBBS over 3 years minus some aspects covered in prior degrees) which was due to launch between 2022 and 2024,HOWEVER, that appears to have gone under the radar / gmc and gphc seem to be non-responsive to it.

In the past, pre-war era, a lot of degrees were degree apprenticeships / med schools were literally hospitals. In a way, it is kinda going back to its routes but more inclusive. On the otherhand, it can create issues.

In anycase, shpuld be curious to see people's views on it

Isn't this just a massive slap in the face to those students from widening participation backgrounds who've gone through the medical degree route and come out the other end with tens of thousands of pounds of debt?

Medical degree costing you > £9000 a year vs. medical degree that pays you £27,000 a year.

As a mature student from a widening participation background due to start GEM in September, this is just incredibly depressing to read honestly. I'm all for closing the gap and allowing everyone the opportunity to study medicine but this isn't the way in my opinion. It just devalues a UK medical degree.

It'll be interesting to see how this pans out. Will those apprentices be guaranteed an FY job at the trust they did their apprenticeship? Will they find it harder to find an FY job? Only time will tell I guess.

Also, is there a caveat that you have to be from a widening participation background in order to apply? Otherwise, what's stopping rich kids from applying hiking up the entrance requirements, and making it exactly the same as applying for a regular medical degree?

More likely it will increase pay up to £27k over the course of the apprenticeship, while paying the minimum apprenticeship wage at the start (which is very low, something like £12k a year). Also bear in mind student finance "debt" is amortized across your career and so the only point at which you are "paying" for it is when you're earning enough that it doesn't matter. It's really just a purely abstract objection as a result.

Practically the benefit of this I could see would be for would-be GEM applicants who can't afford the second degree with minimal/no funding, or for those already working in the NHS who don't want to have a big career gap where they have to go and be a student again without working and earning (which may overlap with the first group as well). For school leavers it doesn't seem to be as beneficial.

Since the point of it seems to be that they earn a medical degree through a participating medical school, foundation allocation would presumably be no different to what it is now (or planned to be, rather, with the introduction of the UKMLA)? I guess it is probably more service provision oriented - might just end up being 5 years of foundation work minus prescribing or something? I think someone pointed out it's more likely to "lock" the ex-apprentices into the NHS as it may not be recognised overseas which again, benefits service provision by creating basically false retention.

But what exactly is the point? Why not just fund medical school places properly? Increase GEM places, increase bursaries. Don't create further divides in a profession that's already faltering.

It's also disadvantaging those students who's only option will be the apprenticeship. They'll be stuck in the UK, because I doubt the degree will be recognised internationally. That's not widening participation, that's trapping people into a system that's slowly dying.

And IMO, it doesn't matter if student debt isn't a traditional 'debt', it's extra money going out of your paycheque that won't be going out of the apprentices cheques.

Isn't this just a massive slap in the face to those students from widening participation backgrounds who've gone through the medical degree route and come out the other end with tens of thousands of pounds of debt?

Medical degree costing you > £9000 a year vs. medical degree that pays you £27,000 a year.

As a mature student from a widening participation background due to start GEM in September, this is just incredibly depressing to read honestly. I'm all for closing the gap and allowing everyone the opportunity to study medicine but this isn't the way in my opinion. It just devalues a UK medical degree.

It'll be interesting to see how this pans out. Will those apprentices be guaranteed an FY job at the trust they did their apprenticeship? Will they find it harder to find an FY job? Only time will tell I guess.

Also, is there a caveat that you have to be from a widening participation background in order to apply? Otherwise, what's stopping rich kids from applying hiking up the entrance requirements, and making it exactly the same as applying for a regular medical degree?

I'm guessing the rationale is something along the lines of, medicine as a degree is already incredibly competitive with more people applying than places. They can expand places to a point but medical schools still need to have capacity to take on those extra places, and hospitals etc need capacity to take on the students on placement who aren't providing service provision. So increasing places is probably a lot more complicated and possible not feasible (financially or practically), and adding extra bursaries for medics (similar to AHPs currently have) will just attract even MORE people to apply making it even more competitive (and quite possibly, harder to differentiate between applicants effectively).

By creating this as a "new route" they avoid "clogging the pipeline" of traditional medicine applications. Additionally by having them be apprentices who are actually working and providing service provision, I'm guessing the rationale is that the cost of the clinical placements is balanced by the value of the service provision by the apprentices (which will probably be worth more than they get paid!).

As for disadvantaging them, probably a matter of perspective/opinion. Some might be perfectly happy to remain in the NHS - especially for example mature students with families etc, who are less able/likely to make large moves abroad to work somewhere else internationally. The state of the NHS is really a separate issue which needs to be addressed but whether they do or don't introduce this doesn't change that (it might not even be the same leadership teams making decisions for each matter).

And it does matter that it isn't "real" debt. Paying a couple hundred a month to SFE when you're earning a couple thousand a month, but only paying a tenner or nothing if you're just scraping by is very different to having to pay a couple hundred a month regardless of what your income is. You cannot ignore context like that. And the apprentices have other disadvantages potentially you already mentioned...so it's a moot point and just complaining "well I had to do this so nobody gets a better deal than me!" which is unhelpful to everyone. It's the same situation in the US where they refuse to do any student debt forgiveness (despite the fact there repayments AREN'T based on your income and debt levels are typically higher, and they can and will sell your student debt to a debt management company) because "well I paid off my debts from when I went to uni in the 50s so why should todays kids get it paid off?" despite it crippling the US economy.

In any case I'm certainly not saying it's the best thing since sliced bread but I do think at least some of the criticisms of it raised so far are not bona fide.

I get the service provision thing, but doesn't that show that the quality of the medics coming out will be worse? How can you possibly provide service provision alongside a regular medical degree in the same amount of time? Working, revising, attending lectures/prossection/dissection/placements in 5 years just doesn't sound feasible unless they're going to lower the level of education they provide on the apprenticeship.

That also raises the point of, who exactly is going to be teaching these people? Med students/junior docs find it hard on placements now, but add in another group of people who need to be taught by seniors and that just worsens the problem.

I don't mean to ignore the context of student finance, of course it being based on income is a caveat. But that doesn't change the fact that people from widening participation backgrounds will likely still be applying to traditional medicine (there don't seem to be many apprentice places). So then you've got people from similar backgrounds with very different incomes.

For the student finance thing though the point is they don't repay it until after they are earning. So they will be making those repayments after they have in theory reached a level of income parity with others through becoming a doctor. The major barrier is then not the actual cost but the perceived cost which does put a lot of applicants from lower income backgrounds off applying to uni in the first place, especially first generation to uni applicants, because they don't have the knowledge that essentially, the debt isn't real and never will affect much of anything in their life.

Given that the debt doesn't actually make a material different in a graduate's life then, having the apprenticeship route does at least serve a purpose in providing a route for those who perceive it to be an issue for one they perceive to not have that issue. Of course, improved awareness of how student finance works would achieve that much better but such things fall onto other people's shoulders in the government so naturally don't get considered in this context I guess (although SFE have recently released some comms clarifying how student loans work much better to help allay these concerns).

Fair enough, I see your point about student finance debt. I do think it's still very unfair in terms of funding whilst doing the degree though. Essentially splitting up widening participation students up into 2 groups - ones who are lucky enough to get the apprenticeship and those who have had to apply for traditional medicine because there are so few apprenticeship places. The money you're given whilst doing the degree just isn't enough to survive on, so the vast majority of WP students (doing the traditional medicine route) with no family help will still be disadvantaged. It'll be interesting as well to see where these apprenticeships are, because then geography and your ability to move will also factor into whether or not you can do the apprenticeship. And the demographic they're trying to cater to is likely to be less able to move easily.

Yeah, I do agree that the geographical factor may be an issue, and that in general the student finance model is pretty dire for everyone at the moment. Although with the funding thing, I'd note apprentices at the start of their apprenticeships also tend to get paid very little (they're legally allowed to be paid less than minimum wage) so for those from low income backgrounds they still end up with very little to go on (if they were eligible for the max maintenance loan it'd only be about 50% more over the course of a year if they are being paid the minimum apprentice wage, and they don't get the potential ability to work part-time in term or do casual full time work out of term!).

So it still does pose an economic challenge for them, however it does frontload this to the beginning of the apprenticeship, as usually apprentice wages increase each year, whereas I think medical degrees it ends up in reverse (as in clinical years I gather it's a lot harder to maintain part-time work in term time, and the NHS bursary replacing SFE funding for those years seems pretty crap unless I've misunderstood how it works!). So I guess there might be a light at the end of the tunnel sooner rather than later for those on the apprenticeship - but I still think they'd have to go through the tunnel!

That's true, I hadn't thought about that. So then how are WP students with no family help supposed to do everything that comes with the apprenticeship and work part-time!? Not enough money at the beginning of the apprenticeship to actually live off, and not enough time to work part-time...

That's true, I hadn't thought about that. So then how are WP students with no family help supposed to do everything that comes with the apprenticeship and work part-time!? Not enough money at the beginning of the apprenticeship to actually live off, and not enough time to work part-time...