Thoughts on Medical Degree Apprenticeship
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Original post by be11atrix
From experience (and looking at current schemes) most degree apprenticeships start around £18K which is national living wage, nowhere near the minimum Level 2 or 3 apprentices might see. It doesn't have to stay the same throughout the apprenticeship and often increases a fair bit annually depending on your performance review.
Don't get me wrong I'm not defending £18K as a liveable salary for an 18-year-old needing to move out on their own, but I feel like there's often a misconception that all apprentices start on £4 an hour...
Don't get me wrong I'm not defending £18K as a liveable salary for an 18-year-old needing to move out on their own, but I feel like there's often a misconception that all apprentices start on £4 an hour...
£18K certainly beats the average of £11-12K per year that I've lived on for the past 5 or 6 years, and that's including a lot of bursaries and extra funding. £18K is more than liveable for a student.
Good evening everyone.
have you heard about the doc apprentice thing?
have you heard about the doc apprentice thing?
Original post by mahmoud123
Good evening everyone.
@ecolier have you heard about the doc apprentice thing?
@ecolier have you heard about the doc apprentice thing?
Is this what you are talking about?
https://www.hee.nhs.uk/news-blogs-events/news/new-medical-doctor-degree-apprenticeship-launched-delivering-more-representative-workforce-local
Original post by Why_am_i_here
Is this what you are talking about?
https://www.hee.nhs.uk/news-blogs-events/news/new-medical-doctor-degree-apprenticeship-launched-delivering-more-representative-workforce-local
https://www.hee.nhs.uk/news-blogs-events/news/new-medical-doctor-degree-apprenticeship-launched-delivering-more-representative-workforce-local
Yh
(edited 1 year ago)
Original post by mahmoud123
Yh
Have only recently heard of this, still trying to understand more about it.......before i make any judgements. It would be interesting to hear from others who have a more informed opinion.
Curious to see what your guys opinion is of the Medicine apprenticeship that's been announced for September 2023. Would you say this is a positive thing?
Original post by Breadlover
Curious to see what your guys opinion is of the Medicine apprenticeship that's been announced for September 2023. Would you say this is a positive thing?
Service users potentially yes. Reality however is that there will be teething issues with any new programme tbh. Personally I'd geofence it so that only individuals in a certain area can go to certain med schools / restrict access to foreign students as it is meant to be for disadvantaged individuals in the uk or for existing clinicians in the uk. Conversely, I could actually see it making the conventional medicine degree pathway less competitive as more people are applying for the apprenticeship. Conversely however, there is a risk that medicine could end up like pharmacy in the sense that supply >>>demand
In anycase, im keeping an eye on it
Original post by quasa
Service users potentially yes. Reality however is that there will be teething issues with any new programme tbh. Personally I'd geofence it so that only individuals in a certain area can go to certain med schools / restrict access to foreign students as it is meant to be for disadvantaged individuals in the uk or for existing clinicians in the uk. Conversely, I could actually see it making the conventional medicine degree pathway less competitive as more people are applying for the apprenticeship. Conversely however, there is a risk that medicine could end up like pharmacy in the sense that supply >>>demand
In anycase, im keeping an eye on it
In anycase, im keeping an eye on it
I think it's extremely unlikely that the supply of doctors will exceed demand. The UK is crying out for more doctors.
Original post by Jpw1097
I think it's extremely unlikely that the supply of doctors will exceed demand. The UK is crying out for more doctors.
That's true, but they still aren't creating more posts. Unless the NHS actually creates more FY, more ST and more consultant posts there'll be an influx of qualified people with no posts going around.
Original post by medicphd
That's true, but they still aren't creating more posts. Unless the NHS actually creates more FY, more ST and more consultant posts there'll be an influx of qualified people with no posts going around.
That is the problem. I'm not sure why they have increased med school numbers if they are not increasing FY/ST/consultant posts. However, I can't see the apprenticeship making it much worse.
(edited 1 year ago)
I would be sceptical as to the NHS’s capacity to actually deliver this. One hospital would have to dedicate huge resources into supporting a single apprentice doctor. My own profession will be commencing its first apprenticeships in September 2023 (having spent a lot more time developing their apprenticeship I might add!) and this feels doable because there’s an actual equivalent role for them to get started in right away i.e. a therapy assistant. That therapy assistant can start delivering therapy right away and the clinical supervision model of apprenticeships would work quite well in terms of gradually increasing their responsibility in line with the standard student model that most therapy departments can accommodate. Therapy assistants have some autonomy in any event, but it’s hard to really imagine an apprentice doctor gaining the equivalent level of autonomy because the stakes are so high. They’d effectively have to be a glorified phlebotomist or HCA rather than an actual apprentice doctor and most departments can only really accommodate medical students on a temporary basis anyway. Do you just spend more time on placement and less time learning? When you rotate between departments, your usefulness to the trust is going to decline anyway in that event so I don’t really get it.
I think in principle there is something here but I can only really see it working for experienced clinical staff rather than green school leavers. The entry requirements seem to be rather hopelessly vague as well.
I think in principle there is something here but I can only really see it working for experienced clinical staff rather than green school leavers. The entry requirements seem to be rather hopelessly vague as well.
tbh….
The funding for it seems abysmal. It defo isn’t £27k a year as that’s like not very different from a fully graduated F1 doc. If it’s £27k over several years then the whole point of it being for “widening participation” is just performative as you still need to be a rich kid or have family / partner support to be able for afford to EAT or pay rent / council tax etc which is a bit crap tbh.
I have no problem with medicine being available as an apprentice degree if they’re still passing all the competencies of traditional med courses which it seems to as they have strict rules for GMC registration.
But it seems a bit performative tbh and is only gonna help a minority of already privileged people and isn’t actually going to “diversify the workforce” as is the selling point.
P.S what OP said about “conversion course” for existing HCPs, they already exist… at least one does in Scotland. Google HCP-Med with edi uni. But you have to have worked in Scotland for 3 yrs to be eligible as is usually the case in Scotland.
P.P.S pls stop with the talk of “it takes the **** out of people who have got so much debt from studying med” cos that sounds VERY like “because I have had to suffer you must too” or “pulling the ladder up behind you” - not a good look man.
The funding for it seems abysmal. It defo isn’t £27k a year as that’s like not very different from a fully graduated F1 doc. If it’s £27k over several years then the whole point of it being for “widening participation” is just performative as you still need to be a rich kid or have family / partner support to be able for afford to EAT or pay rent / council tax etc which is a bit crap tbh.
I have no problem with medicine being available as an apprentice degree if they’re still passing all the competencies of traditional med courses which it seems to as they have strict rules for GMC registration.
But it seems a bit performative tbh and is only gonna help a minority of already privileged people and isn’t actually going to “diversify the workforce” as is the selling point.
P.S what OP said about “conversion course” for existing HCPs, they already exist… at least one does in Scotland. Google HCP-Med with edi uni. But you have to have worked in Scotland for 3 yrs to be eligible as is usually the case in Scotland.
P.P.S pls stop with the talk of “it takes the **** out of people who have got so much debt from studying med” cos that sounds VERY like “because I have had to suffer you must too” or “pulling the ladder up behind you” - not a good look man.
(edited 1 year ago)
Original post by HTSAPD
tbh….
The funding for it seems abysmal. It defo isn’t £27k a year as that’s like not very different from a fully graduated F1 doc. If it’s £27k over several years then the whole point of it being for “widening participation” is just performative as you still need to be a rich kid or have family / partner support to be able for afford to EAT or pay rent / council tax etc which is a bit crap tbh.
I have no problem with medicine being available as an apprentice degree if they’re still passing all the competencies of traditional med courses which it seems to as they have strict rules for GMC registration.
But it seems a bit performative tbh and is only gonna help a minority of already privileged people and isn’t actually going to “diversify the workforce” as is the selling point.
P.S what OP said about “conversion course” for existing HCPs, they already exist… at least one does in Scotland. Google HCP-Med with edi uni. But you have to have worked in Scotland for 3 yrs to be eligible as is usually the case in Scotland.
P.P.S pls stop with the talk of “it takes the **** out of people who have got so much debt from studying med” cos that sounds VERY like “because I have had to suffer you must too” or “pulling the ladder up behind you” - not a good look man.
The funding for it seems abysmal. It defo isn’t £27k a year as that’s like not very different from a fully graduated F1 doc. If it’s £27k over several years then the whole point of it being for “widening participation” is just performative as you still need to be a rich kid or have family / partner support to be able for afford to EAT or pay rent / council tax etc which is a bit crap tbh.
I have no problem with medicine being available as an apprentice degree if they’re still passing all the competencies of traditional med courses which it seems to as they have strict rules for GMC registration.
But it seems a bit performative tbh and is only gonna help a minority of already privileged people and isn’t actually going to “diversify the workforce” as is the selling point.
P.S what OP said about “conversion course” for existing HCPs, they already exist… at least one does in Scotland. Google HCP-Med with edi uni. But you have to have worked in Scotland for 3 yrs to be eligible as is usually the case in Scotland.
P.P.S pls stop with the talk of “it takes the **** out of people who have got so much debt from studying med” cos that sounds VERY like “because I have had to suffer you must too” or “pulling the ladder up behind you” - not a good look man.
I agree, there’s so much anger about this that feels reactionary and snobbish rather than objective. I think some people practising medicine also really do have no idea how difficult it is for people in certain circumstances to actually study medicine. There are very few routes in for people from certain backgrounds and I’m all for opening up alternative routes. But I think this has been rushed and I just don’t think it’s practicable.
Original post by HTSAPD
P.P.S pls stop with the talk of “it takes the **** out of people who have got so much debt from studying med” cos that sounds VERY like “because I have had to suffer you must too” or “pulling the ladder up behind you” - not a good look man.
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I still think it's a valid point. The reality of the apprenticeship is that it really doesn't seem to be very well thought out and I can imagine that they haven't taken into consideration things like:
- The workload vs the pay ie. it's unlikely you'll be able to live off the apprenticeship wage but you'll definitely not have the time for a part-time job.
- Geography. Those that they are trying to cater to may be less likely to be able to move, so are these apprenticeships abundant in all areas of the UK?
- International recognition. It's unfair to trap WP students in the NHS if the output isn't as internationally recognised as a standard med degree.
Leaving what will likely be 2 groups of widening participation students. Those who have been able to get an apprenticeship post so won't come out with debt but will have to figure out how to live off an apprenticeship wage and do a med degree and an apprenticeship in 5 years. And another group who will still struggle for money and have to work part-time and will still come out with a load of debt - but maybe have a better standard of education and (very little) time to work part-time. That's not helpful to WP students, and still saddles the most underpriviledged group with a lot of debt if they don't nab one of the apprenticeship posts (which there don't seem to be many of). I know this debt issue isn't specific to medicine or the apprenticeship, but a much wider issue. However I still think it comes into play here because the aim of the course is to seemingly help those from a lower socioeconomic background, and so financial help and debt is one of, if not the most, important things to take into consideration.
Why waste time and money creating an apprenticeship that hasn't been thought out, hasn't had input from the GMC and doesn't seem to have the backing of anyone in clinical medicine. Actually solve the problem by creating a liveable bursary and more financial help for those who need it. This is just patching up a leaking pipe - no forthought for the long-term impact.
Do you think the apprenticeship will be available for life science graduates? I graduated in 2016 and regret not applying for medicine as my first degree every day. I just don't have the funds to do GEM. From personal experience, an opportunity like this would be perfect for those who have graduated and have always wished they did medicine instead of building up a huge debt doing a degree they half wished they hadn't. Who actually knows what they want to study at 18 eh!
Original post by adamsfamily
Do you think the apprenticeship will be available for life science graduates? I graduated in 2016 and regret not applying for medicine as my first degree every day. I just don't have the funds to do GEM. From personal experience, an opportunity like this would be perfect for those who have graduated and have always wished they did medicine instead of building up a huge debt doing a degree they half wished they hadn't. Who actually knows what they want to study at 18 eh!
The details seem a bit murky at the moment. You can look here: https://www.instituteforapprenticeships.org/apprenticeship-standards/doctor-degree-v1-0. "This apprenticeship has been approved, but we do not anticipate any starts until at least September 2023, as it will take providers at least a year to prepare for delivery. Those who wish to apply should check NHS Jobs as well as individual employers’ job notification boards for any apprenticeship vacancies from Autumn 2023 at the earliest."
It just says: "Entry requirements for the Doctor Degree apprenticeship will be agreed between the employer and the Medical School." It seems like each post is going to be advertised by the deanery or the university. I'm not sure if they'll be any limits for those who already have studied a degree.
(edited 1 year ago)
Ok
Personally I would like any physician treating me to be academically strong which makes it more likely that their clinical acumen will be as well.
Even the best clinicians will make errors in their career. Decreasing the academic requirements will almost certainly increase this.
I really couldn’t care less what my treating physicians background, gender, race or religion is.
Bedside manner / empathy are also optional.
I care about one thing.
Their clinical ability
I believe most patients would echo this.
How have we got to a stage where it is thought the most important thing is to be treated by someone from the same background as you and not the best physician that could be trained. (Rhetorical question)
The vast majority of patients do not select their physician / surgeon based on their backgrounds being similar.
Personally I would like any physician treating me to be academically strong which makes it more likely that their clinical acumen will be as well.
Even the best clinicians will make errors in their career. Decreasing the academic requirements will almost certainly increase this.
I really couldn’t care less what my treating physicians background, gender, race or religion is.
Bedside manner / empathy are also optional.
I care about one thing.
Their clinical ability
I believe most patients would echo this.
How have we got to a stage where it is thought the most important thing is to be treated by someone from the same background as you and not the best physician that could be trained. (Rhetorical question)
The vast majority of patients do not select their physician / surgeon based on their backgrounds being similar.
(edited 1 year ago)
Original post by Medpapa
Ok
Personally I would like any physician treating me to be academically strong which makes it more likely that their clinical acumen will be as well.
Even the best clinicians will make errors in their career. Decreasing the academic requirements will almost certainly increase this.
I really couldn’t care less what my treating physicians background, gender, race or religion is.
Bedside manner / empathy are also optional.
I care about one thing.
Their clinical ability
I believe most patients would echo this.
How have we got to a stage where it is thought the most important thing is to be treated by someone from the same background as you and not the best physician that could be trained. (Rhetorical question)
The vast majority of patients do not select their physician / surgeon based on their backgrounds being similar.
Personally I would like any physician treating me to be academically strong which makes it more likely that their clinical acumen will be as well.
Even the best clinicians will make errors in their career. Decreasing the academic requirements will almost certainly increase this.
I really couldn’t care less what my treating physicians background, gender, race or religion is.
Bedside manner / empathy are also optional.
I care about one thing.
Their clinical ability
I believe most patients would echo this.
How have we got to a stage where it is thought the most important thing is to be treated by someone from the same background as you and not the best physician that could be trained. (Rhetorical question)
The vast majority of patients do not select their physician / surgeon based on their backgrounds being similar.
You might not. Others do. And also I think people really do underestimate the benefits of being able to relate to your patients on a personal level. Lives experience can really determine a clinician’s ability to relate to a patient, how they frame advice, what problems they anticipate and how they account for these in their management plans. I think it’s often framed in terms of the benefits to patient choice but it’s not really about that. It’s about the workforce being alert and sensitive to the needs of the population they serve based on lived experience, not just their academic or clinical knowledge. And yes, this can be gained in all kinds of ways and I don’t feel it’s necessary for every doctor to be a rags to riches success story in order to have an effective medical workforce. But diversity is still important and you need to be ever diversifying your workforce and to find ways of enabling that diversification. Whether an apprenticeship is the right route, who’s to say at this stage? Lowering the entry threshold to medicine has its problems and I think the entry requirements for this route appear to be hopelessly vague. If you are going to lower the entry requirements for an apprenticeship you’re actually likely to disadvantage the very people you’re trying to attract because those people often need a large package of additional support that only a university environment can really provide.
I have a feeling that the apprenticeship route is likely to evolve into a conversion route for nurses and AHPs as these are the only people with an appropriate baseline of clinical skills and knowledge to be able to take advantage of this sort of opportunity. This is a route that’s badly needed.
I am trying to wean myself off social media
Specifically I am trying to avoid myself getting involved in debates with others who clearly will not change their opinions.
It is clear we will not agree so divergent are our views.
I support equality of opportunity strongly such that we (the U.K. government) train the best quality doctors from the best quality applicants regardless of what background or other characteristics they have.
I do not support equality of outcome where clearly worse candidates are being selected to tick various diversity boxes. In healthcare this is will almost certainly lead to some worse outcomes for some patients.
There are now many studies showing that med students with worse academics on entry to med school on average do worse through out medical school. Selecting more med students with worse academics but the right diversity characteristics has clear implications for patient safety.
You may be comfortable with that.
I am not.
However I’m not going to get into a protracted debate on this for the reasons already stated
Specifically I am trying to avoid myself getting involved in debates with others who clearly will not change their opinions.
It is clear we will not agree so divergent are our views.
I support equality of opportunity strongly such that we (the U.K. government) train the best quality doctors from the best quality applicants regardless of what background or other characteristics they have.
I do not support equality of outcome where clearly worse candidates are being selected to tick various diversity boxes. In healthcare this is will almost certainly lead to some worse outcomes for some patients.
There are now many studies showing that med students with worse academics on entry to med school on average do worse through out medical school. Selecting more med students with worse academics but the right diversity characteristics has clear implications for patient safety.
You may be comfortable with that.
I am not.
However I’m not going to get into a protracted debate on this for the reasons already stated
(edited 1 year ago)
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