Thoughts on Medical Degree Apprenticeship

I am trying to wean myself off social media

Specifically I am trying to avoid myself getting involved in debates with others who clearly will not change their opinions.

It is clear we will not agree so divergent are our views.

I support equality of opportunity strongly such that the we (the U.K. government) train the best quality doctors from the best quality applicants regardless of what background or other characteristics they have.

I do not support equality of outcome where clearly worse candidates are being selected to tick various diversity boxes. In healthcare this is will almost certainly lead to some worse outcomes for some patients.

There are now many studies showing that med students with worse academics on entry to med school on average do worse through out medical school. Selecting more med students with worse academics but the right diversity characteristics has clear implications for patient safety.


You may be comfortable with that.

I am not.

However I’m not going to get into a protracted debate on this for the reasons already stated

I agree and I’ve seen the same studies you have. This is why I actually disagree with the principle of lowering entrance requirements and support the principle of foundation years to improve academics.

However, I would support the principle that when you have to choose between two equally qualified people in terms of academics, you pick the one who adds diversity because the evidence shows that diversity in healthcare improves patient safety. Academic performance alone is not an objective measure or predictor of patient safety.

You see this is what I’m trying to stop myself doing…….. debating online!!!

I find myself agreeing with your first 2 paragraphs.
Foundation years for those from disadvantaged backgrounds pre med school. That sounds perfect for equality of opportunity while maintaining entry standards.

Academics are however an objective measure that’s the point of exams

And academic performance is also a predictor of clinical acumen which is a predictor for patient safety.
However it is not the sole predictor and the correlation is not 100%.

Anyway I really can’t lose another weekend debating on TSR. I need to stop myself getting drawn into these sort of debates.

So regardless of what you or anyone else write below I must refrain from debating further and go back to offering advice only!!!

I’m sure @ecolier will be relieved!

minimum degree in a relevant professional qualification for graduate entry
GSCE requirements (English and Maths 4/C or equivalent)- actual requirements most likely higher

What is considered a relevant professional qualification? I was intending of applying for a random science related masters (I have a 2:2 BSc, graduated 2012) to compensate for my 2:2 before applying for Nottinghams GEM but the cost has ultimately thrown me off as I support myself and my family. I have worked as a healthcare assistant for the last 10 years.

However, if there is a professional qualification I can study for between now and the first intake of students for this apprenticeship - I would be willing to make the sacrifice as the job security is far greater than the role I currently hold (where I have been stationary and on almost the same salary for 10 years with minimum job satisfaction and losing all my skills, I once held).

Ok

Personally I would like any physician treating me to be academically strong which makes it more likely that their clinical acumen will be as well.
Even the best clinicians will make errors in their career. Decreasing the academic requirements will almost certainly increase this.

I really couldn’t care less what my treating physicians background, gender, race or religion is.
Bedside manner / empathy are also optional.
I care about one thing.

Their clinical ability

I believe most patients would echo this.

How have we got to a stage where it is thought the most important thing is to be treated by someone from the same background as you and not the best physician that could be trained. (Rhetorical question)

The vast majority of patients do not select their physician / surgeon based on their backgrounds being similar.

Have you been a patient?? I am a patient with a chronic illness and I can tell you that bedside manner / empathy are very much linked with clinical ability. Doctors who cannot communicate effectively with their patients and in return get their patients to communicate can do great harm. And as a patient who talks to other patients, I can tell you patients prefer the doctors that treat them as humans not tasks, with compassion, kindness and empathy AND are clinically competent. It is not people skills or clinical skills, it is both.

If you go on support forums for diseases you will see many other patients who have experienced situations where doctors wouldn't listen, wouldn't support them, and closed the communication so the patients don't go back. If patients don't feel comfortable to go back, it can be detrimental to their health and lead to poorer outcomes.

And recently I had an anaesthetist who made me think I was going to die during my surgery because when I asked if I was going to be given my IV steroids he told me NO, and glared at me, because he couldn't be bothered to use the words to say he was using a different steroid that would do the same job... I clearly didn't die, he did his clinical role just fine but I had a very unnecessarily stressful experience. People skills matter.


I didn't go back far enough to see why you have said that we are getting to the point of the most important thing is doctors being from the same background as the patients, because that is not what is happening with this apprenticeship. This apprenticeship will still have very specific academic requirements, in-line with medical schools. And graduates should still have met the competencies like those graduating medical schools.

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Have you actually been a patient?? I am a patient with a chronic illness and I can tell you that bedside manner / empathy are very much linked with clinical ability. Doctors who cannot communicate effectively with their patients and in return get their patients to communicate can do great harm. I had a life threatening misdiagnosis due to a doctor just dismissing my concerns and making me feel shut out of the NHS. And as a patient who talks to other patients while we wait, I can tell you many patients prefer the doctors that treat them as humans not tasks, with compassion, kindness, empathy AND are clinically competent. It is not people skills or clinical skills, it is both.

If you go on support forums for diseases you will see many other patients who have experienced situations where doctors wouldn't listen, wouldn't support them, and closed the communication so the patients don't go back. If patients don't feel comfortable to go back, it can be detrimental to their health and lead to poorer outcomes.

And recently I had an anaesthetist who made me think I was going to die during my surgery because when I asked if I was going to be given my IV steroids he told me NO, and glared at me, because he couldn't be bothered to use the words to say he was using a different steroid that would do the same job... I clearly didn't die, he did his clinical role just fine but I had a very unnecessarily stressful experience. People skills matter.


I didn't go back far enough to see why you have said that we are getting to the point of the most important thing is doctors being from the same background as the patients, because that is not what is happening with this apprenticeship. I am presuming this apprenticeship will still have very specific academic requirements, in-line with medical schools as it has stated. And graduates should still have met the competencies like those graduating medical schools.