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Should we learn to speak Esperanto?

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Nah just make English the universal language. It’s already the most spoken language at 1.4 billion people when taking into account L2, its nicely spread-out across the planet in both L1 and L2 levels and the pervasiveness of American entertainment helps makes it easy to pick up.
Original post by artful_lounger
I assume they mean colonialist implications behind the spread of the language and adoption of it as a widespread language. However this is true of basically any widespread world language - Spanish, Portuguese, English, Arabic, even historically Latin, Sanskrit etc all were a result of that.

OP has sort of missed that almost necessarily imposing any language upon other groups itself does have colonialist implications - invariably it benefits one group to have everyone speaking the same language more than another (also in this case, Esperanto being almost purely constructed on the basis of European language forms, very much just continues that programme).

The only way to avoid that would be to encourage purely native/indigenous languages/dialects, but that then runs contrary to the aim of trying to create any kind of universal language, and even having mutually intelligible indigenous languages/dialects in a region isn't always likely!

I wasn’t hoping to impose, more debate whether or not it should be a universal language. Forcing a language onto others unnecessarily erases these people’s national identity and is therefore immoral. This is why I hoped as a second language native/indigenous people would learn their own languages first and then Esperanto second should they choose to.
Original post by artful_lounger
The thing is, not all other scripts are alphabets - Sanskrit for example has a syllabary - and also not all languages feature or distinguish between all phonetic values (which is why you have e.g. [L] and [R] being confused by many Japanese native speakers when learning English, because the two sounds are not well distinguished in Japanese). Also in the case of Japanese and Chinese (maybe also Korean) logographic scripts where a single character can be a syllable (as with Sanskrit) or even multiple syllables in some cases. Also fundamentally script =/= language. Sanskrit is written typically (historically) in Devanagari script, but that script can also be used to write e.g. Pali or Hindi, and Sanskrit can also be (and was) written in other scripts (particularly in South East Asia, and possibly Central Asia).

Of course one can, in theory, write any language in any given script provided you have a suitable transliteration system set up - you can write Sanskrit in Roman script (i.e. "English" script) using one of several different transliteration formats. However not all scripts will "natively" have ways to represent all phonetic values in a given language - Roman script can compensate for this in some respects with diacritics that aren't normally used in many/any of the languages that normally use that script, other scripts may or may not be able to do that.

So it's important to understand the difference between language and writing, and that written language and spoken language are different in some respects (usually linguists consider spoken language to have primacy over written language, although I think some historical linguists have argued against that as a purely descriptivist approach to spoken language may not always capture certain features of the language which are still considered important in written form?).

Also even that aside, it's not just about the phonetic inventory of Esperanto vs other languages - the fundamental grammar of the languages may be very different and one or the other may have grammatical features not present in others. Esperanto is I gather mildly inflected - some languages are heavily inflected while others are purely synthetic. While in the European language regime the more synthetic languages like English and French may be able to "compensate" by having shared vocabulary and other grammatical features, other world languages don't have that luxury necessarily!

Would I be right in assuming you’d prefer sanskrit become a universal language, if so why?

Also could for languages where a phonetic translation isn’t possible, could they learn how to speak Esperanto but not write by for example hearing “door” in their language sounds like this, “door” in Esperanto sounds like this. Then memorising that?

In a way Esperanto does have a history and it’s own culture because it’s Lexicon is borrowed from multiple different languages with their own histories and cultures.
(edited 1 year ago)
A language has to be constantly spoken to be maintained. Given there are no significant groups of Esperanto speakers, you’d learn it and then just forget it if you weren’t practising it all the time. And unlike existing languages which people may learn because they love the history and culture of where it’s come from/spoken, Esperanto has no country of origin and no real culture of any kind surrounding it, which makes many people view it as “dead” and artificial.
Original post by Stressed_0ut
I wasn’t hoping to impose, more debate whether or not it should be a universal language. Forcing a language onto others unnecessarily erases these people’s national identity and is therefore immoral. This is why I hoped as a second language native/indigenous people would learn their own languages first and then Esperanto second should they choose to.

I realise that, I'm just pointing out the very concept of your aim itself is sort of hard to extract from colonialist issues :wink:
Original post by Stressed_0ut
Would I be right in assuming you’d prefer sanskrit become a universal language, if so why?

Also could for languages where a phonetic translation isn’t possible, could they learn how to speak Esperanto but not write by for example hearing “door” in their language sounds like this, “door” in Esperanto sounds like this. Then memorising that?

In a way Esperanto does have a history and it’s own culture because it’s Lexicon is borrowed from multiple different languages with their own histories and cultures.


I mean for Sanskrit it's just because it's what I'm familiar with after studying it with a while :smile: It is a pretty great language though, even aside from the interesting cultural aspects the fundamental grammar and how that was codified and passed down is very interesting and it's really like...if you were designing a language you would probably want to do it the same way Sanskrit is. So why not just use Sanskrit? :biggrin:

With your second point I would contend then you're creating a two sided system where some are more privileged in being able to "easily" learn Esperanto, and others aren't. Which begs the question, why not use a con lang based on e.g. Sinitic languages and scripts, rather than European ones? This also then relates to my point about colonialism - at some point you start baking in aspects of one cultural group no matter what!

Also the thing is having words based on other languages does not itself give that language a culture - it has a limited range of texts of its own is my point. You could just as well then e.g. focus on Spanish or French or German rather than Esperanto, get the language AND get a much longer history of textual and oral cultural material.

Note I've really no horse in this race - I just think it's an interesting thing to think about :wink: I'm not saying Esperanto should or shouldn't be learnt, just pointing out potential caveats, alternatives etc :smile:
Original post by Son of the Sea
A language has to be constantly spoken to be maintained. Given there are no significant groups of Esperanto speakers, you’d learn it and then just forget it if you weren’t practising it all the time. And unlike existing languages which people may learn because they love the history and culture of where it’s come from/spoken, Esperanto has no country of origin and no real culture of any kind surrounding it, which makes many people view it as “dead” and artificial.

Poland is Esperanto’s country of origin because it was invented there. Also Esperanto comes from multiple different languages because it’s lexicon is made up of many languages with their own history and culture. If it were to become a universal language then quite a lot of the world would speak it making it hard to forget.
I see. So you want to get everyone to learn another language that is derived mainly from Latin and Germanic languages, and is spoken almost exclusively by white Europeans, because you think that English has colonial baggage?

This truly must be the EU-Globalists wet dream.

Makes sense. If you want to learn Esperanto, no one is stopping you.
(edited 1 year ago)
Original post by Stressed_0ut
Poland is Esperanto’s country of origin because it was invented there. Also Esperanto comes from multiple different languages because it’s lexicon is made up of many languages with their own history and culture. If it were to become a universal language then quite a lot of the world would speak it making it hard to forget.

That’s not really a country of origin in the way it’s meant with natural languages. It isn’t a Polish language with a genuine geographic location. It’s all very well saying that we’d all understand it if it were a universal language but you’re ignoring the mechanism of how it would become one in the first place precisely because it doesn’t really come from anywhere and there is no pressing motivation or urgency to learn it. Whether you like it or not, mighty world languages always arise because of empires and/or the economic power and wealth of a country or group of countries that speak it. Given the age of empires is over I can see no real way in somehow imposing Esperanto globally.
Original post by artful_lounger
I mean for Sanskrit it's just because it's what I'm familiar with after studying it with a while :smile: It is a pretty great language though, even aside from the interesting cultural aspects the fundamental grammar and how that was codified and passed down is very interesting and it's really like...if you were designing a language you would probably want to do it the same way Sanskrit is. So why not just use Sanskrit? :biggrin:

With your second point I would contend then you're creating a two sided system where some are more privileged in being able to "easily" learn Esperanto, and others aren't. Which begs the question, why not use a con lang based on e.g. Sinitic languages and scripts, rather than European ones? This also then relates to my point about colonialism - at some point you start baking in aspects of one cultural group no matter what!

Also the thing is having words based on other languages does not itself give that language a culture - it has a limited range of texts of its own is my point. You could just as well then e.g. focus on Spanish or French or German rather than Esperanto, get the language AND get a much longer history of textual and oral cultural material.

Note I've really no horse in this race - I just think it's an interesting thing to think about :wink: I'm not saying Esperanto should or shouldn't be learnt, just pointing out potential caveats, alternatives etc :smile:


That’s fair enough, I’m also very interested in debating this. I’m having a little difficulty understanding how imposing Esperanto would have colonising aspects but imposing Sanskrit won’t, would you mind explaining this to me?
Original post by Stressed_0ut
That’s fair enough, I’m also very interested in debating this. I’m having a little difficulty understanding how imposing Esperanto would have colonising aspects but imposing Sanskrit won’t, would you mind explaining this to me?


Oh, Sanskrit absolutely would, and did - it was quite widespread as a prestige language in the "Sanskrit cosmopolis" in historical South/South East Asia. However this was absolutely due to imperialistic and colonialist expansions of various kingships, and often Sanskrit was used as a conveyor of religious beliefs and ideologies that may not have been present before - sometimes with violence!

But if we accept that trying to create any kind of universal language necessarily implies some kind of colonialist mindset, then if we can accept that (I'm not saying that we can either!) then it comes down to which language, and there's lots of options to consider there. And while I've suggested Sanskrit that is still an Indo-European language. There may well be justification for using a Sinitic or Semitic language for example, or any of the wide range of Austronesian languages.
Original post by Trinculo
I see. So you want to get everyone to learn another language that is derived mainly from Latin and Germanic languages, and is spoken almost exclusively by white Europeans, because you think that English has colonial baggage?

This truly must be the EU-Globalists wet dream.

Makes sense. If you want to learn Esperanto, no one is stopping you.


It’s not spoken only by white Europeans, Esperanto is popular in Brazil. would it be colonising if people keep their native languages and learn them first then learn Esperanto second if they want to communicate with others who speak it as the hypothetical universal language?
Original post by Son of the Sea
That’s not really a country of origin in the way it’s meant with natural languages. It isn’t a Polish language with a genuine geographic location. It’s all very well saying that we’d all understand it if it were a universal language but you’re ignoring the mechanism of how it would become one in the first place precisely because it doesn’t really come from anywhere and there is no pressing motivation or urgency to learn it. Whether you like it or not, mighty world languages always arise because of empires and/or the economic power and wealth of a country or group of countries that speak it. Given the age of empires is over I can see no real way in somehow imposing Esperanto globally.

Perhaps instead of imposing it using empires could Esperanto become a language option for students around the world to choose to learn it popularising it in that way?
Original post by artful_lounger
Oh, Sanskrit absolutely would, and did - it was quite widespread as a prestige language in the "Sanskrit cosmopolis" in historical South/South East Asia. However this was absolutely due to imperialistic and colonialist expansions of various kingships, and often Sanskrit was used as a conveyor of religious beliefs and ideologies that may not have been present before - sometimes with violence!

But if we accept that trying to create any kind of universal language necessarily implies some kind of colonialist mindset, then if we can accept that (I'm not saying that we can either!) then it comes down to which language, and there's lots of options to consider there. And while I've suggested Sanskrit that is still an Indo-European language. There may well be justification for using a Sinitic or Semitic language for example, or any of the wide range of Austronesian languages.

Would it be less colonising if we make up a language completely, with no historical or cultural roots? Then spread it by letting students across the world choose to learn it as a MFL (modern foreign language instead of using empires?
Original post by Stressed_0ut
Would it be less colonising if we make up a language completely, with no historical or cultural roots? Then spread it by letting students across the world choose to learn it as a MFL (modern foreign language instead of using empires?


I think the issue with that is, even with Esperanto there is pretty limited uptake! I think it is just hard to get people to pick up a new language in general, much less if there is little "behind" the language to encourage people to learn it.

It's probably hard to "design" a language which has no "historical or cultural roots" because invariably those planning the language will be influenced (even unconsciously) by their own languages and hence cultures.

It's a neat idea though :smile: perhaps the closest to that would be, not a language so much as a metalanguage, of the minimalist programme in linguistics. Since it focuses on abstract formulations of language based on descriptive data, it's relatively "objective" and less culture influenced (although Chomsky was apparently influenced to begin his research by how the ancient Sanskrit grammarians, particularly Panini, approached Sanskrit). That said I think the MP is generally definitely seen strongly as "Western" linguistics (since it was borne out of MIT in the West) and so I think even that can't escape it :tongue:
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