The Student Room Group

Which race was Queen Cleopatra?

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Original post by Joe90joe90
The person on the far right of this image is one self-portrayal of the ancient Egyptians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_race_controversy#/media/File:colone:gyptian_races.jpg

The more obviously black person is a Nubian. That is not to say there weren't Egyptians who weren't darker (or paler) than portrayed here.

The skin pigmentation of all black people are not the same and occur on a spectrum due to climate, vegetation and proximity to the equator.

A reasonable argument to the racial heterogeneity that occurred years later could come from the impact of the Egyptian empire where peoples would have migrated to and from Egypt where there would have been racial mixing between the Ancient black peoples and peoples from elsewhere. This occurrence can also be seen in other major empires including Roman, British etc.
She was ethnically Greek and Egyptian, fact. She was certainly not black like the Netflix show is getting heat for. The only black rulers of Egypt were the Kushites of the Nubian Dynasty.
Original post by Wired_1800
The skin pigmentation of all black people are not the same and occur on a spectrum due to climate, vegetation and proximity to the equator.

A reasonable argument to the racial heterogeneity that occurred years later could come from the impact of the Egyptian empire where peoples would have migrated to and from Egypt where there would have been racial mixing between the Ancient black peoples and peoples from elsewhere. This occurrence can also be seen in other major empires including Roman, British etc.


What convinces you that ancient egyptians were black? Their immediate neighbours to the south certainly were, but their immediate neighbours to the west are shown as pale. When they portrayed themselves, they usually seem like people in Egypt and the middle east today.
Original post by Joe90joe90
What convinces you that ancient egyptians were black? Their immediate neighbours to the south certainly were, but their immediate neighbours to the west are shown as pale. When they portrayed themselves, they usually seem like people in Egypt and the middle east today.


The immediate neighbours to the West (Libya) were not non-black. Ancient Libyans were darker-skinned. Even when you see the region such as Jordan, Sudan, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Judea (Israel), Yemeni etc. you will see ancient portrayals to be darker skinned.

Due to the discussion on this thread, I went to the British museum in London. When you go to the regions surrounding and including ancient Egypt, you will see clear signs of negroid features and skin tone among the portrayals.

Empires mix and expand when the rise and fall. It is possible that some of the ancient (negroid) Egyptians inter-married with caucasoid peoples and evolved their features.
Original post by gnomeHunter
No it wasn't during Cleopatra's period macedonia the greek state was already subdued by Rome and Before her lifetime Macedonia yes was it's own kingdom but so was all of greece there were thracians as well but they're still referred to as ancient Greeks, because they literally referred to themselves as such "hellenes" was what ancient macedonians call themselves the only reason we refer to them as macedons is to differentiate them from other hellenic kingdoms.

Also before you reply again Hellas is what modern day greeks call greece and its what also ancient greeks called.

So no there is no difference.


You have your point, I give you that. However...

@londonmyst

@Mesopotamian…


What do you think, guys? is the Macedonian blood line an own race or not?
(edited 1 year ago)
Original post by gnomeHunter
Italians still have ancient italic blood in them lol even the southern italians can trace some of their lineage to Greeks who only occupied the region during 8th century BC and once again during Byzantines period. Even the Greeks themselves who were occupied by a middle eastern empire still have majority Greek ancestry even those turks who think they're from central asia have a significant amount of greek blood.

There are those celt origin who still exist on the british isles too.
There were no ethnically black egyptian. Ancient egypt developed from the north of the nile which is closer to israel than it is to Sudan the first settlers at the nile would of most likely been very ancient middle easterners. Haplogroup data and and ancient language very much states this.

Ye black people come in all shades hence why when were talking about facts we dont use a made up social concept like race being based off your skin colour instead we use only and science. And the only sub-Saharan africans in ancient egypt were Nilotes from Sudan

The big problem with these sorts of discussions/debates is that the framing is underpinned by a social construct of race, which is way more recent than ancient demographies.

Sub-Saharan African was a recent divisive construct that tried to make north Africans to be more aligned with middle easterners. In ancient times, most places where settlements based on common beliefs, religions or values. History is full of migration and inter-breeding and it is entirely reasonable that the nomadic of some groups could have settled in areas close to or inside Egypt that inter-bred with the negroid folk that lived there.

It is correct that there were no “black” egyptians in the terms used in modern language as there were no “white” egyptians. What they had were communities that had shades from negroid to caucasoid and most people were just different shades of brown.

Here is a claimed map showing the settlement within the Vandal Kingdom from 435 to 534 AD
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:NE_500ad.jpg#mw-jump-to-license

In the above, one would be able to see large swathes of North African land labelled nomadic tribes that would have encouraged genetic mixing. I don't think Nilotes were the only people, you also had the Cushites.

With the declining birth rates in Europe and Britain as well as the great migration, years to come, people could possibly argue that Britain was the demography that it was in the past.
Original post by gnomeHunter
Bro said evolved :eek:

Scientifically
Original post by Kallisto
What do you think, guys? is the Macedonian blood line an own race or not?

Not a race.
More of an ethnicity based upon extensive very close blood relative endogamous practices for centuries and some ancient geographical lines.
Like the ancient Dacians, Illyrians, Philistines, Phoenicians and Thracians were.
Original post by Sorcerer of Old
She was ethnically Greek and Egyptian, fact. She was certainly not black like the Netflix show is getting heat for. The only black rulers of Egypt were the Kushites of the Nubian Dynasty.

Much of ancient Nubia came under ancient Egyptian rule during the New Kingdom era.
The royal families of both kingdoms often shared an intense devotion to the Amun-Ra cults, with quite a few marriages undertaken over the centuries between members of the two aristocracies and Amun-Ra priesthoods.

There is also a chance that some of the ancient egyptian 'shadow rulers' were overseas raised female spouses, brought to ancient Egypt having been demanded as human tribute from conquered territories now contained with the West & North African regions by the most territorial expansion obsessed of pharoahs.
Or the ambitious young male in-laws of an infirm pharoah, whose families accepted polygamy but did not view consanguineous marriages as acceptable and had a tradition of arranging non-endogamous marriages in exchange for access to significant financial benefit or fearsome military alliances against mutual ancient enemies.
Original post by londonmyst
Not a race.
More of an ethnicity based upon extensive very close blood relative endogamous practices for centuries and some ancient geographical lines.
Like the ancient Dacians, Illyrians, Philistines, Phoenicians and Thracians were.


So it has to be asked about ethnicity and not the race, like the thread did.

And if we point to her ethnicity, is it wrong to say that she was a Greek, just because her Macedonian descent was part of Hellenism? In short: was she a Macedonian or Greek from the point of ethnicity?
Original post by didntuno
Cleopatra lived about 1300 years after King Tut
She was not a native Egyptian anymore than that SNP leader is a native Scot.

Then after the Greeks, the Arabs took over.. today Egypt is extremely Arab

The timeline for Ancient Egypt allegedly lasted for 3,000 years. Crazy that people debate the ethnic make up of ancient Egyptians.
Original post by Wired_1800
The immediate neighbours to the West (Libya) were not non-black. Ancient Libyans were darker-skinned.




Did you click on the link I posted? The Ancient Egyptians depict them as much paler than themselves in that work.
Original post by Joe90joe90
Did you click on the link I posted? The Ancient Egyptians depict them as much paler than themselves in that work.


I did not. See my posts above.
Original post by Kallisto
And if we point to her ethnicity, is it wrong to say that she was a Greek, just because her Macedonian descent was part of Hellenism? In short: was she a Macedonian or Greek from the point of ethnicity?

Queen Cleopatra's ethnicity probably included them both.
Ancient Greek, Ancient Macedonian and probably a few aristocratic or royal ancestors of other ancient civilisations too.

In the same way that my friend Friedrich's 103 year old Bavarian born grandmother has an ethnicity that includes Baltic Prussians, Frankish, Kursenieki, Norse Viking and Pennsylvania Dutch.
Original post by Wired_1800
I did not. See my posts above.


It shows an Ancient Egyptian depiction of a Libyan as pale-skinned, much paler than an Egyptian, who in turn is paler than a Nubian.

Where did you get the idea that ancient Libyans were black?
Original post by Joe90joe90
It shows an Ancient Egyptian depiction of a Libyan as pale-skinned, much paler than an Egyptian, who in turn is paler than a Nubian.

Where did you get the idea that ancient Libyans were black?


I provided the response above.
I see what you said here:

"The immediate neighbours to the West (Libya) were not non-black. Ancient Libyans were darker-skinned. Even when you see the region such as Jordan, Sudan, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Judea (Israel), Yemeni etc. you will see ancient portrayals to be darker skinned."

But I don't see what evidence you're citing?
Original post by Joe90joe90
I see what you said here:

"The immediate neighbours to the West (Libya) were not non-black. Ancient Libyans were darker-skinned. Even when you see the region such as Jordan, Sudan, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Judea (Israel), Yemeni etc. you will see ancient portrayals to be darker skinned."

But I don't see what evidence you're citing?


Post #26
I'm with you; "It is correct that there were no “black” egyptians in the terms used in modern language as there were no “white” egyptians. What they had were communities that had shades from negroid to caucasoid and most people were just different shades of brown." - this makes perfect sense.
Reply 39
The 2.30 at Cheltenham.

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