Britain should not have declared war on Germany, 1939

Thomassss

the US did not fight the Native Americans, it took over their land kicked them out and replaced the people with Americans. Manifest destiny ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_Wars

These wars didn't exist then?

And Hitler exterminating the jews ? that is disputed, and it was the Jews who declared war on Hitler Government First

What a preposterous thing to say, don't be such an idiot.

The native americans did not want more land, they wanted to stay in their land

What a silly thing to say, every Indian tribe tried to expand their territory just as the US did.

America annexed large parts of the world from Hawaii to Texas, which makes Germany's demand to get back the polish corridor acceptable

What about the 3,000,000 Jewish Poles they killed while occupying Poland?

Have you already forgotten about that?

all Hitler wanted was to unite all German Speaking people under one flag..

Poles speak their own language, it's called Polish and Bismarck united the German speaking people, not Hitler.

i did not say the Allies shouldve sided with Hitler, I dont care what the Allies did or did not do, Britain shouldve stayed Neural.

And you think for a second that Hitler wouldn't have eventually invaded Britain?

Don't be so foolish.

If protecting Human life is so important , why not invade the Soviet Union ? where million of people including Jews were killed

Millions of people were killed, yes, in order to industrialise the Soviet Union, had people not payed the ultimate sacrifice many, many, many more would've perished under the Nazi jackboot.

What did WW2 achieve ? freedom for eastern europeans ??? NO

Last time I checked, there were still Jews living in Eastern Europe, this wouldn't have been possible under Hitler's empire.

If I see Kids two people fighting each other,I intervene, but when two Grown Men fight because one of them slept with anothers wife I dont do anything Because I am not the Police, likewise Britian is not the World Police :yes:

Two grown men weren't fighting when the Nazis invaded Poland, it was more like a grown man vs a child. Moreover, I haven't claimed that Britain was or should be the world police, but when 6 million+ Jews and 20 million Soviet civilians were killed in World War 2, intervening wasn't an option, it was a requirement.

Reply 82

Thomassss

Actually Britain, France,the Ottoman Empire & America would be perfectly happy with Communist Russia going down the Drain, allowing Britain to expand its influence in Afghanistan and Southern Europe

And the others would be glad to see the back of a communist country

This has to be the dumbest thing you've said so far, Britain and France would not have been happy had the Nazis defeated the Soviet Union, because the Nazi Germany would've become a hegemon and would've certainly guzzled up Western Europe after it had finished with the Soviet Union.

There would've been no British Empire, because Britain would've fallen to the Nazis.

British influence in southern Europe, what influence did Britain ever have in southern Europe? The Nazis controlled southern Europe and practically ran Spain because Franco's civil war was backed by Hitler and Mussolini.

The Ottoman Empire collapsed in 1923, well done.

I find it rather ironic that being a socialist you lambast the Soviet Union, which was, after all, socialist, not communist.

Reply 83

Mr_K_Dilkington

Stalin

Millions of people were killed, yes, in order to industrialise the Soviet Union, had people not payed the ultimate sacrifice many, many, many more would've perished under the Nazi jackboot.

This goes no way towards justifying the crimes of the USSR in this period...

The industrialization of Russia subsequently being used to defeat the Nazis has almost no moral bearing on the decisions made to industrialize in the late 20s/early 30s. It's almost completely irrelevant to the issue of morality.

Reply 84

Folderol

2

Thomassss

And Hitler exterminating the jews ? that is disputed,

:rofl:

and it was the Jews who declared war on Hitler Government First

The Jews declared an economic boycott in response to the antsemitism that Hitler supported and manifested. Look at the Daily Express article, which you use as a source, you'll find the following: Fourteen million Jews dispersed throughout the world have banded together as one man to declare war on the German persecutors of their co-religionists. Sectional differences and antagonisms have been submerged in one common aim - to stand by the 600,000 Jews of Germany who are terrorised by Hitlerist anti-Semitism, and to compel Fascist Germany to end its campaign of violence and suppression directed against its Jewish minority

http://images.indymedia.org/imc/ontario/judea_declares_war_on_germany.jpg

So Hitler beats up Jews, suppresses them, bases his platform on antisemitism and in response, the Jewry declares an economic boycott. And you think that justifies or adds any context to what his regime ended up doing in the Holocaust.

Reply 85

Mr_K_Dilkington

This goes no way towards justifying the crimes of the USSR in this period...

The industrialization of Russia subsequently being used to defeat the Nazis has almost no moral bearing on the decisions made to industrialize in the late 20s/early 30s. It's almost completely irrelevant to the issue of morality.

Without the industrialisation the Soviet Union couldn't have defeated the Nazis, it was done in order to maximise the country's chances of survival. Industrialise or be killed, which would you have chosen?

Reply 86

Stalin

This has to be the dumbest thing you've said so far, Britain and France would not have been happy had the Nazis defeated the Soviet Union, because the Nazi Germany would've become a hegemon and would've certainly guzzled up Western Europe after it had finished with the Soviet Union.

There would've been no British Empire, because Britain would've fallen to the Nazis.

British influence in southern Europe, what influence did Britain ever have in southern Europe? The Nazis controlled southern Europe and practically ran Spain because Franco's civil war was backed by Hitler and Mussolini.

The Ottoman Empire collapsed in 1923, well done.

I find it rather ironic that being a socialist you lambast the Soviet Union, which was, after all, socialist, not communist.

1) If Britian stayed Neutral Nazi Germany would not have attacked it
2) Nazi Hegemony over Soviet Union would only be a problem in the long term and something which could be solved with out war, Anglo Saxon countries would Prefer World Domination by Germany than Slavs, and Soviet Union trying to spread Communism to the world, idiot, do you think Hitler was going to spread Nazism to South Korea,Afganistan and Vietnam ???!!!! ??!!!
3) Britain had to protect its access to Suez Canal, and stop the Russian expanding into greece around that area
4) Mussolini- so what you suggest Britain just give up ?! idiot you tackle problems one by one

As for your counter argument to my other post, all your points are fabricated/irrelevant and they all still stand

a bunch of Jews stay alive in eastern europe ?! whilst the entire country lives under Soviet Occupation and thousands of people killed by Secret Police ?

you call that a success ?, Saving the lives of Jews was not the role of British Empire

Hitler had every right to avenge the Treaty of Versailles ,as for the killing of all those poles that is no different to any other invasion of a county, and you post about Native Americans expanding is just stupid, People left europe to kick Native American out of their homes.... not the other way round'Cesarani states that "in terms of the sheer numbers killed, the Native American Genocide exceeds that of the Holocaust".[24]'. Stalin killed more Russians than Hitler, Hitler would have done Russians a Favour if he invaded them, the truth is Hitler would have treated Russian better than Stalin

6 million ? disputed
20 million ? how many did stalin kill ?
0 million ? number of British people killed by Hitler, so why should Britain have a 'requirement'

Reply 87

Thomassss

1) If Britian stayed Neutral Nazi Germany would not have attacked it

Of course he would have attacked Britain, his goal was to dominate all of Europe.

2) Nazi Hegemony over Soviet Union would only be a problem in the long term and something which could be solved with out war, Anglo Saxon countries would Prefer World Domination by Germany than Slavs, and Soviet Union trying to spread Communism to the world, idiot, do you think Hitler was going to spread Nazism to South Korea,Afganistan and Vietnam ???!!!! ??!!!

Hegemony is a problem, regardless of the ideology.

Hitler would've eventually started expanding into Asia, either that or Japan would've as they already had a foothold in China. Fascism would've eventually reached Vietnam and Afghanistan - it already reached Korea.

To think that Hitler would've stopped at Europe is idiotic, did the British stop after they took North America? Did the French stop after they took North Africa? The list goes on.

Empires want to expand, in order to become the world's only hegemon.

3) Britain had to protect its access to Suez Canal, and stop the Russian expanding into greece around that area

You were claiming that the British had influence in Southern Europe during WW2, which is preposterous, because Nazi Germany and Italy controlled the Med(this is assuming that Britain hadn't declared war on Germany).

4) Mussolini- so what you suggest Britain just give up ?! idiot you tackle problems one by one

What on earth are you talking about?

Mussolini was Hitler's ally, declare war on Italy and you would've declared war on Hitler, don't be such an imbecile.

a bunch of Jews stay alive in eastern europe ?! whilst the entire country lives under Soviet Occupation and thousands of people killed by Secret Police ?

There are 225,000 Jews in Russia, 77,000 in Ukraine, 49,000 in Hungary, 18,000 in Belarus and 10,000 in Romania.

Had Eastern Europe been run by Hitler, these 400,000 odd people wouldn't be alive today, and I've only named 5 countries, I'm sure there are quite a few in Poland, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Slovakia etc.

Hitler had every right to avenge the Treaty of Versailles ,as for the killing of all those poles that is no different to any other invasion of a county, and you post about Native Americans expanding is just stupid, People left europe to kick Native American out of their homes.... not the other way round'Cesarani states that "in terms of the sheer numbers killed, the Native American Genocide exceeds that of the Holocaust".[24]'. Stalin killed more Russians than Hitler, Hitler would have done Russians a Favour if he invaded them, the truth is Hitler would have treated Russian better than Stalin

Why did Hitler have every right to avenge the Treaty of Versailles - it was put in place in order to prevent Germany from ever becoming a threat to Europe.

3,000,000 Polish Jews died, the number of Poles remains unknown, but rest assured quite a few more died. And how is the killing of the Jews no different to any other invasion - that has to be your biggest blunder yet.

People didn't leave Europe to attack the Native Americans, they left Europe in order to flee from religious persecution or war.

Hitler would've exterminated upwards of 90% of the Soviet population, in order to control such a large group of people, imprisoning the last 10% and sending them to oil fields. Don't dare say he would've done them a favour, he was a fascist who sent communists to camps.

6 million ? disputed
20 million ? how many did stalin kill ?
0 million ? number of British people killed by Hitler, so why should Britain have a 'requirement'

6 million Jews died
20 million Soviet civilians died
Are you forgetting the bombings of London, Coventry etc? Are you expecting us to believe that no British civilians died - yet another one of your blunders.

Why should Britain have declared war on Hitler? If you can't answer this question yourself, I don't think I should even continue debating this with you, I'm simply wasting my time.

Reply 88

Everything you say is based on asumptions, what I say is based on facts

your wasting me time , so cba replying

Ive disproved everything youve said from Native Americans to British interest Southern Europe

your entire argument rests on Hitler was lunatic who wanted to invade Britian and Vietnam the world etc

Fascist countries are less of a threat than communism to countries like Britain and America, Communism spread like wild fire, Fascism does not. Communist countries work together for world revolution, Fascist country do not if you do not know such a simply point, you should reconsider your degree choice

Jews dying or Boers dying its all the same

good bye

Reply 89

Thomassss

Everything you say is based on asumptions, what I say is based on facts

Counter my argument then.

Ive disproved everything youve said from Native Americans to British interest Southern Europe

Britain never had influence in Southern Europe during WW2 until it invaded Italy.

Native Americans were expanding just as the US was.

Where have you disproven me?

your entire argument rests on Hitler was lunatic who wanted to invade Britian and Vietnam the world etc

The fact that you're unable to comprehend that Hitler would've eventually expanded just like the British, French, Spanish and Portuguese did is beyond me, and simply sums your arguments up, idiotic.

Fascist countries are less of a threat than communism to countries like Britain and America, if you do not know such a simply point, you should reconsider your degree choice

What on earth are you talking about now - the Soviet Union could've easily taken over Western Europe once the war had ended, did he - no he didn't. Is this yet another pathetic rant of yours?

Reply 90

NDGAARONDI

16

So where were you when Yugoslavia was falling apart then? I'm sure the Croats and Bosnians could have done with some support from Israel for weapons, you know, one good turn deserves another, but nope.

(edited 3 years ago)

Reply 91

Rhadamanthus

17

NDGAARONDI

So where were you when Yugoslavia was falling apart then? I'm sure the Croats and Bosnians could have done with some support from Israel for weapons, you know, one good turn deserves another, but nope.

We were fighting a war against every country that borders us. :wink:

Reply 92

Mr_K_Dilkington

Stalin

Without the industrialisation the Soviet Union couldn't have defeated the Nazis, it was done in order to maximise the country's chances of survival. Industrialise or be killed, which would you have chosen?

The industrialization had started and the worst of the famines caused by industrialization happened before Hitler had even come to power, so you can't use that as an excuse for the savagery which the industrialization and collectivization techniques employed...

Are you going to try and defend the purges as "necessary" next?

Reply 93

NDGAARONDI

So where were you when Yugoslavia was falling apart then? I'm sure the Croats and Bosnians could have done with some support from Israel for weapons, you know, one good turn deserves another, but nope.

Israel was busy annexing lands, and committing genocide

Reply 94

NDGAARONDI

16

Yeah but I didn't see many Jews living abroad advocate invading Yugoslavia because of the genocide there. Israel would have had enough weapons to give some to Croatia I reckon. Not sure Bosnia having a fair few Muslims would have affected the likelihood of this.

(edited 3 years ago)

Reply 95

Mr_K_Dilkington

The industrialization had started and the worst of the famines caused by industrialization happened before Hitler had even come to power, so you can't use that as an excuse for the savagery which the industrialization and collectivization techniques employed...

Are you going to try and defend the purges as "necessary" next?

Both Lenin and Stalin knew that the Soviet Union was 50 years, if not 100 years behind countries like Germany, France and the UK in terms of economic might. They knew perfectly well that there would eventually be another war involving great powers and in order to protect themselves, the country had to be industrialised, it's not up for negotiation.

As for the purges, I have never and will never deny that Stalin made some catastrophical decisions, but why are you focusing on the errors Stalin made instead of the great things he achieved, his 5 year plans, arguably, won the war. Regardless of how many people gave their lives for the Soviet Union, had they not, they would've eventually died because the Nazis would've decimated the country in a matter of months.

Criticise Stalin if you wish I agree with you a lot of things could've been done differently, but at the end of the day his positives far outweight his negatives.

Reply 96

Poland is a Sovereign country , its not dependent on the Crown for Protection

Soviet Union did try its best to Spread Communism .... so your wrong yet again

to spread Fascism you need to invade a country to spread communism you just need a well funded party machine

Reply 97

Mr_K_Dilkington

Stalin

Both Lenin and Stalin knew that the Soviet Union was 50 years, if not 100 years behind countries like Germany, France and the UK in terms of economic might. They knew perfectly well that there would eventually be another war involving great powers and in order to protect themselves, the country had to be industrialised, it's not up for negotiation.

As for the purges, I have never and will never deny that Stalin made some catastrophical decisions, but why are you focusing on the errors Stalin made instead of the great things he achieved, his 5 year plans, arguably, won the war. Regardless of how many people gave their lives for the Soviet Union, had they not, they would've eventually died because the Nazis would've decimated the country in a matter of months.

Criticise Stalin if you wish I agree with you a lot of things could've been done differently, but at the end of the day his positives far outweight his negatives.

Most historians will tell you that Nazism came to be such a strong force partly, as a reaction to and fear of Bolshevism in the East. Stalin played a massive role in bringing the Nazis to power. The Nazis preyed on peoples' fear of Bolshevism and the horrors of Stalinism. If it hadn't been for the remarkable brutality of the Stalinist system, the purging, the terror, the famines, the collectivization, the rapid, brutal industrialization, then it's quite possible that Nazism would never have obtained power in Germany.

Reply 98

Don_Scott