devolution

OP

technik

the UK has the 4th highest GDP in the world right now...

So?

as someone else said...if it aint broke...

and anyway if the union broke up the 3 of the 4 nations suddenly become unimportant european minnows tucked up in the ocean out of the way and england becomes instantly less important and influencial than...the dreaded french. wonder how The Sun and most common folk would like that... :biggrin:

So the existence of the UK simply builds the ego of its citizens? Does Luxembourg care if it's "influential" or wealthy?

Reply 43

Lord Waddell

JonathanH

Exactly, in the last election, England was actually won (in vote terms) by the Conservatives. Thus, it's possible that in the future, if we stopped Scottish, Welsh MPs etc. voting on English issues, we'd have a minority government (in terms of England) trying to pass legislation, which would just be a mess. The electoral system of this country is actually geared to a significant degree towards preventing coalitions and minority governments.

However, even if only English MPs were allowed to vote on English issues, you would still have a Labour majority, despite them getting less votes than the Tories. What is needed is a comphrehensive boundary review, something that should have been done and the recommendations in place for the last elections. We are fighting elections on constituencies based on the 1991 census data for goodnesss sake!
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zooropa

So the existence of the UK simply builds the ego of its citizens? Does Luxembourg care if it's "influential" or wealthy?

Luxembourg may not, but Luxembourg is an entirely different country to Britain. It has never been powerful or hugely wealthy, whereas Britain has and is. In any case, there is no majority demand for the breakup of the United Kingdom.

Reply 44

OP

Spain was historically powerful. So was Portugal and France. Do they lament their eras of power?

What is the worth of power? I only want my country to be free and prosperous.

hugely wealthy

Excuse me?! Luxembourg has the highest GDP per capita in the world. GDP in itself is not generally used to denote "wealth". China has a large GDP, but poor GDP per capita.

In any case, there is no majority demand for the breakup of the United Kingdom

Perhaps not. Nonetheless, that doesn't mean the UK is worth saving.

Reply 45

Tonight Matthew

2

Chrism

That'd be Labour's problem, not ours.

I'm not so sure the two can be quite so neatly distinguished.

Reply 46

zooropa

So?

So the existence of the UK simply builds the ego of its citizens? Does Luxembourg care if it's "influential" or wealthy?

the UKs history and culture is very much linked in with being a world power. you cant change it.
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zooropa

Perhaps not. Nonetheless, that doesn't mean the UK is worth saving.

but it means it is worth saving a lot more than breaking it up. hence why the majority still support the union and why the majority of people vote for labour and the conservatives who are unionist parties (the conservatives more so however)

Reply 47

OP

So? As I stated Spain and France were once world powers, they aren't today. Ultimately, the only people who care about "Empire" are middle aged pricks who sit around whining about the rise of political correctness.

Nations rise and fall. The USA is today's superpower, but it won't be forever. China wasn't relatively powerful a century ago, yet is a potential superpower.

I don't see why this is a reason why the UK should be intact.

Reply 48

L i b

19

How about economies of scale - for the same amount of money per capita, the UK could provide a more effective defence force than the sum of its parts. That's one of the best abstract justifications for union I have.

Reply 49

Longshoredrift80

10

Maybe it's just down to the fact that it's a union at the moment, it's working pretty well and the vast majority don't want to change it... So why should we screw around with it when we aren't sure what the consequences would be?

Reply 50

Chrism

Tonight Matthew

I'm not so sure the two can be quite so neatly distinguished.

We're never going to win a majority in the country without winning a majority in England. Labour conceivably could, in which case, they'd just have to accept our legislation.

Reply 51

Lord Waddell

zooropa

Spain was historically powerful. So was Portugal and France. Do they lament their eras of power?

What is the worth of power? I only want my country to be free and prosperous.

But Britain has always been based around power. That is the whole point. For the forseeable future, Britain will remain a power in the world. And France is still an important power. And yes they do lament their Empires and eras of power.

Excuse me?! Luxembourg has the highest GDP per capita in the world. GDP in itself is not generally used to denote "wealth". China has a large GDP, but poor GDP per capita.

Perhaps not. Nonetheless, that doesn't mean the UK is worth saving.

Britain has a greater total GDP than Luxembourg. And the UK should only be broken up if its people wish for it. Why destroy something if there is no demand for its destruction?

Reply 52

cant really see the point either...

much is still run from westminister and the constituent nations are so alike and interlinked there's not much point.

Reply 53

OP

Lord Waddell

But Britain has always been based around power. That is the whole point. For the forseeable future, Britain will remain a power in the world. And France is still an important power. And yes they do lament their Empires and eras of power.

Power isn't really relevant. Power doesn't affect how cohesive or prosperous your country is.

Britain has a greater total GDP than Luxembourg.

So what? Economists don't use GDP to denote a country's standard of living.

And the UK should only be broken up if its people wish for it. Why destroy something if there is no demand for its destruction?

Well why should the UK be intact?

Reply 54

zooropa

Well why should the UK be intact?

its the status quo and generally popular.

and as you dont seem to be in favour of it it's up to you to provide reasons and persuade people why it shouldnt be in existence. not up to any of us to defend it continually when you've already been given several reasons and completely ignored them.

Reply 55

Lord Waddell

zooropa

Well why should the UK be intact?

Its up to you to provide arguments for its breakup. The only one that you seem to give is that tradition is wrong and that we should ignore the past.

Reply 56

OP

technik

its the status quo and generally popular.

Status quo? Even if a status quo isn't in the general interest, that means it must remain?

and as you dont seem to be in favour of it it's up to you to provide reasons and persuade people why it shouldnt be in existence. not up to any of us to defend it continually when you've already been given several reasons and completely ignored them.

There are too many economic disparities in the UK. Wales and Scotland are poorer than England. It's not fair that Scotland and Wales' economic development is hampered in this fashion.

The 1707 and 1801 Acts of Union were based on coercion and force. The then Scottish Parliament didn't freely consent to union with England. In 1801, Irish MP's were flagrantly bribed into accepting union with Great Britain.

Reply 57

wales and scotland would still be poorer than england regardless...

Reply 58