Discrimination against English A level students 2023
OFQUAL is guilty of race discrimination under the 2010 Equality Act by allowing Wales and Northern Ireland to have lower grade boundaries than England. It makes a mockery of the exam system, when English students achieving the same exam mark as a Welsh student were awarded up to 2 grades less in their A level assigned grade. It is pure discrimination based on nationality, which is illegal. I would urge everyone to contact OFQUAL and lodge a direct complaint, and also to lodge a complaint with EHRC (the Equality and Human Rights Commission). Both forms are available online and are quick and easy to fill out. The EHRC stepped in and made OFQUAL change all the grades retrospectively in 2020 for a similar reason and the same should happen again this year. It makes a total mockery of the exam system - Welsh, NI and English students all compete for the same university places and the same jobs. This discrimination will materially impact English students for the rest of their lives on many levels including financially and mentally. It is illegal, and for a good reason. Imagine if grades were awarded based on colour, or gender? No one would stand for it. Awarding grades based on nationality is no different.
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Well, it is not illegal for Ofqual to determine different standards to regulators elsewhere in the Union, and it's incredibly unlikely to ever be viewed as a breach of the Equality Act (and even if it were, any perceived breach could be justified by regulators, which provides exemption form the Act)
Is it unfair? yes
Is it illegal? Almost certainly not
Is it unfair? yes
Is it illegal? Almost certainly not
Original post by gjd800
Well, it is not illegal for Ofqual to determine different standards to regulators elsewhere in the Union, and it's incredibly unlikely to ever be viewed as a breach of the Equality Act (and even if it were, any perceived breach could be justified by regulators, which provides exemption form the Act)
Is it unfair? yes
Is it illegal? Almost certainly not
Is it unfair? yes
Is it illegal? Almost certainly not
On what grounds can they justify this discrimination? The Equality Act specifically mentions nationality under race discrimination. Why would EHRC intervene in 2020, and not now in 2023?
Original post by cuddly kittens
On what grounds can they justify this discrimination? The Equality Act specifically mentions nationality under race discrimination. Why would EHRC intervene in 2020, and not now in 2023?
Well, Ofqual have justified it, and at great length. You can read this stuff for yourself and then it will be clear why an exemption to the Equality Act can be argued
Devolution, my droog.
Original post by cuddly kittens
On what grounds can they justify this discrimination? The Equality Act specifically mentions nationality under race discrimination. Why would EHRC intervene in 2020, and not now in 2023?
The variable isn't nationality of somebody from England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, France, Guatamala, Somalia, etc. when that person takes an exam in one area vs. another. The variable is then where they took the exam.
My most heartfelt advice to you is... grow the **** up.
Original post by gjd800
Fewer than 5% of students cross a border to go to University. In practical terms it's a total non-issue.
Where did you get that figure from? You are saying that 95% of Welsh students go to university in Wales, and 95% of Northern Irish students go to university in Northern Ireland. I doubt that is correct.
Original post by cuddly kittens
Where did you get that figure from? You are saying that 95% of Welsh students go to university in Wales, and 95% of Northern Irish students go to university in Northern Ireland. I doubt that is correct.
Actually, that's not what I'm saying, because that's not how statistics work. Fewer than 5% of the total students in the UK, so there are to be expected marginal national differences given that the vast majority of the student body is made up of English students.
You can go look it all up on the literature provided by Ofqual. It is plentiful, and good practice for the research you will need to do at university.
Original post by gjd800
Actually, that's not what I'm saying, because that's not how statistics work. Fewer than 5% of the total students in the UK, so there are to be expected marginal national differences given that the vast majority of the student body is made up of English students.
You can go look it all up on the literature provided by Ofqual. It is plentiful, and good practice for the research you will need to do at university.
You can go look it all up on the literature provided by Ofqual. It is plentiful, and good practice for the research you will need to do at university.
I have done my research. Follow this link. https://www.theguardian.com/education/live/2023/aug/17/a-level-results-2023-england-wales-northern-ireland-latest-news-updates?page=with:block-64ddedf78f08715659d3dc92
In 2023 : 26% of English students received A grades, 37% of NI students received A grades, 33% of Welsh students received A grades. There is open discrimination against English students, which is openly admitted by each of those 3 countries, on the basis that the exam boards are devolved and can do whatever they like. NI and W had more lenient grade boundaries. The students apply for the same university places, and many of students have applied for the same apprentice schemes and the same jobs straight out of university. The universities and the employers think and A means an A, few realise that a Welsh and NI A* is equivalent to an English B. There is no consistency between the grades between three three countries, but there should be!!. We all supposedly live in the United Kingdom, yet Welsh and NI students are given an easier ride to the higher grades. It is discrimination. You can sugar coat and disguise it, but it is discrimination.
Original post by cuddly kittens
I have done my research. Follow this link. https://www.theguardian.com/education/live/2023/aug/17/a-level-results-2023-england-wales-northern-ireland-latest-news-updates?page=with:block-64ddedf78f08715659d3dc92
In 2023 : 26% of English students received A grades, 37% of NI students received A grades, 33% of Welsh students received A grades. There is open discrimination against English students, which is openly admitted by each of those 3 countries, on the basis that the exam boards are devolved and can do whatever they like. NI and W had more lenient grade boundaries. The students apply for the same university places, and many of students have applied for the same apprentice schemes and the same jobs straight out of university. The universities and the employers think and A means an A, few realise that a Welsh and NI A* is equivalent to an English B. There is no consistency between the grades between three three countries, but there should be!!. We all supposedly live in the United Kingdom, yet Welsh and NI students are given an easier ride to the higher grades. It is discrimination. You can sugar coat and disguise it, but it is discrimination.
In 2023 : 26% of English students received A grades, 37% of NI students received A grades, 33% of Welsh students received A grades. There is open discrimination against English students, which is openly admitted by each of those 3 countries, on the basis that the exam boards are devolved and can do whatever they like. NI and W had more lenient grade boundaries. The students apply for the same university places, and many of students have applied for the same apprentice schemes and the same jobs straight out of university. The universities and the employers think and A means an A, few realise that a Welsh and NI A* is equivalent to an English B. There is no consistency between the grades between three three countries, but there should be!!. We all supposedly live in the United Kingdom, yet Welsh and NI students are given an easier ride to the higher grades. It is discrimination. You can sugar coat and disguise it, but it is discrimination.
Education is devolved so they can do what they like as long as it is fair, which this is. They announced well in advance that they would be more/less lenient so universities would know this before giving offers.
I would say most English students have an advantage as they apply with predicted grades (which are often better than what people actually achieve), whilst in Scotland, they tend to apply with Higher grades already known, which is what most unis care about. Is that discrimination, or just differences in education systems?
Would you say France having different systems to students in England is discrimination?
(edited 6 months ago)
Original post by Uni_student3132
Education is devolved so they can do what they like as long as it is fair, which this is. They announced well in advance that they would be more/less lenient so universities would know this before giving offers.
I would say most English students have an advantage as they apply with predicted grades (which are often better than what people actually achieve), whilst in Scotland, they tend to apply with Higher grades already known, which is what most unis care about. Is that discrimination, or just differences in education systems?
Would you say France having different systems to students in England is discrimination?
I would say most English students have an advantage as they apply with predicted grades (which are often better than what people actually achieve), whilst in Scotland, they tend to apply with Higher grades already known, which is what most unis care about. Is that discrimination, or just differences in education systems?
Would you say France having different systems to students in England is discrimination?
In France everyone is judged by the same system. People in the South of France do not get given higher grades automatically by virtue of their location, compared to people in the north of France. It is a fair system, where everyone is judged by the same standards. No one is given a free ride. We are supposed to be the UNITED Kingdom, I do not see why France is being brought into the discussion. You can try and sweep this under the carpet all you like, and divert attention by making stupid arguments. English students were treated unfairly in the last round of exams. And predicted grades are given based on whatever students achieve in their L6 summer exams, they are not pulled out from thin air. In the past they were based on AS grades which were compulsory, and many schools still offer AS to their students as an option and extra incentive.
(edited 6 months ago)
Original post by cuddly kittens
In France everyone is judged by the same system. People in the South of France do not get given higher grades automatically by virtue of their location, compared to people in the north of France. It is a fair system, where everyone is judged by the same standards. No one is given a free ride. We are supposed to be the UNITED Kingdom, I do not see why France is being brought into the discussion. You can try and sweep this under the carpet all you like, and divert attention by making stupid arguments. English students were treated unfairly in the last round of exams. And predicted grades are given based on whatever students achieve in their L6 summer exams, they are not pulled out from thin air. In the past they were based on AS grades which were compulsory, and many schools still offer AS to their students as an option and extra incentive.
We are the UK, but education is devolved, so think of the different education systems how you see France's. We have the English, Scottish, Welsh, NI, French, Germany etc, systems. Then for universities, they judge people from these areas based on what their system is with different standards for each area. Universities know the systems are different and are able to take that into account when giving offers.
Just accept that this isn't discrimination and that sometimes, you can't get everything you want in life.
Also, it is a fact that predicted grades are often higher than what people actually get.
Original post by Uni_student3132
We are the UK, but education is devolved, so think of the different education systems how you see France's. We have the English, Scottish, Welsh, NI, French, Germany etc, systems. Then for universities, they judge people from these areas based on what their system is with different standards for each area. Universities know the systems are different and are able to take that into account when giving offers.
Just accept that this isn't discrimination and that sometimes, you can't get everything you want in life.
Also, it is a fact that predicted grades are often higher than what people actually get.
Just accept that this isn't discrimination and that sometimes, you can't get everything you want in life.
Also, it is a fact that predicted grades are often higher than what people actually get.
My experience is very different from yours. Predicted grades are often lower than what is actually achieved. Out of 2 A level students in our household with exams in 2019 and 2023, both exceeded their predicted grade in one subject because in both cases they were predicted exactly what they achieved in their L6 exams. There was no grade inflation. That is the general practise in our area, which makes sure the students work hard in L6.
We are one country - United Kingdom. An A should be the same whether you are from Wales, Northern Ireland or England. A Welsh A* should not be equivalent to an English B. You cannot compare it to France or Germany, because those are distinct countries. When you fill out a foreign visa form you don't state Wales, you stated United Kingdom. There needs to be consistency within countries - people do not just go to UK universities, they still go abroad to foreign universities, who have no concept that NI and Wales are given fake high grades. And though UK universities may understand the difference, some people will apply for jobs straight from A level, and those companies will not have any idea that a grades are different between different parts of the UK.
For a country to be UNITED, everyone needs to have the same rules and regulations. The same yard stick. The different grades makes a total mockery of exams in the UK. If they are to be judged differently, they needs different names. Scotland has a different name, and therefore everyone knows they are not the same. Northern Ireland and Wales should not call their exams A levels, they should be called something different like NI Uppers, and Welsh Finals, so that their A levels cannot be confused with English A levels.
Original post by cuddly kittens
My experience is very different from yours. Predicted grades are often lower than what is actually achieved.
Very few grades are underpredicted. If they are incorrect, then most will be overpredicted. That is a fact, not experience.
The UK is one country, but education is devolved so we have 4 different education systems. That is also a fact, whether you want to accept it or not.
You are now having a rant about devolution because people dared to point out how wrong you are. (And not just devolution, Scotland had its own education system long before the Scottish parliament existed).
(edited 6 months ago)
Original post by cuddly kittens
I have done my research. Follow this link. https://www.theguardian.com/education/live/2023/aug/17/a-level-results-2023-england-wales-northern-ireland-latest-news-updates?page=with:block-64ddedf78f08715659d3dc92
In 2023 : 26% of English students received A grades, 37% of NI students received A grades, 33% of Welsh students received A grades. There is open discrimination against English students, which is openly admitted by each of those 3 countries, on the basis that the exam boards are devolved and can do whatever they like. NI and W had more lenient grade boundaries. The students apply for the same university places, and many of students have applied for the same apprentice schemes and the same jobs straight out of university. The universities and the employers think and A means an A, few realise that a Welsh and NI A* is equivalent to an English B. There is no consistency between the grades between three three countries, but there should be!!. We all supposedly live in the United Kingdom, yet Welsh and NI students are given an easier ride to the higher grades. It is discrimination. You can sugar coat and disguise it, but it is discrimination.
In 2023 : 26% of English students received A grades, 37% of NI students received A grades, 33% of Welsh students received A grades. There is open discrimination against English students, which is openly admitted by each of those 3 countries, on the basis that the exam boards are devolved and can do whatever they like. NI and W had more lenient grade boundaries. The students apply for the same university places, and many of students have applied for the same apprentice schemes and the same jobs straight out of university. The universities and the employers think and A means an A, few realise that a Welsh and NI A* is equivalent to an English B. There is no consistency between the grades between three three countries, but there should be!!. We all supposedly live in the United Kingdom, yet Welsh and NI students are given an easier ride to the higher grades. It is discrimination. You can sugar coat and disguise it, but it is discrimination.
No, if you had read more than a couple of newspaper articles you'd simply be better informed of the practicalities and the legalities of all this, not to mention the justifications offered by Ofquql, which might be unfair, but are certainly - clearly and obviously - not illegal.
It's OK, I thought I knew everything when I was 18 too.
Original post by cuddly kittens
My experience is very different from yours. Predicted grades are often lower than what is actually achieved. Out of 2 A level students in our household with exams in 2019 and 2023, both exceeded their predicted grade in one subject because in both cases they were predicted exactly what they achieved in their L6 exams. There was no grade inflation. That is the general practise in our area, which makes sure the students work hard in L6.
We are one country - United Kingdom. An A should be the same whether you are from Wales, Northern Ireland or England. A Welsh A* should not be equivalent to an English B. You cannot compare it to France or Germany, because those are distinct countries. When you fill out a foreign visa form you don't state Wales, you stated United Kingdom. There needs to be consistency within countries - people do not just go to UK universities, they still go abroad to foreign universities, who have no concept that NI and Wales are given fake high grades. And though UK universities may understand the difference, some people will apply for jobs straight from A level, and those companies will not have any idea that a grades are different between different parts of the UK.
For a country to be UNITED, everyone needs to have the same rules and regulations. The same yard stick. The different grades makes a total mockery of exams in the UK. If they are to be judged differently, they needs different names. Scotland has a different name, and therefore everyone knows they are not the same. Northern Ireland and Wales should not call their exams A levels, they should be called something different like NI Uppers, and Welsh Finals, so that their A levels cannot be confused with English A levels.
We are one country - United Kingdom. An A should be the same whether you are from Wales, Northern Ireland or England. A Welsh A* should not be equivalent to an English B. You cannot compare it to France or Germany, because those are distinct countries. When you fill out a foreign visa form you don't state Wales, you stated United Kingdom. There needs to be consistency within countries - people do not just go to UK universities, they still go abroad to foreign universities, who have no concept that NI and Wales are given fake high grades. And though UK universities may understand the difference, some people will apply for jobs straight from A level, and those companies will not have any idea that a grades are different between different parts of the UK.
For a country to be UNITED, everyone needs to have the same rules and regulations. The same yard stick. The different grades makes a total mockery of exams in the UK. If they are to be judged differently, they needs different names. Scotland has a different name, and therefore everyone knows they are not the same. Northern Ireland and Wales should not call their exams A levels, they should be called something different like NI Uppers, and Welsh Finals, so that their A levels cannot be confused with English A levels.
https://www.ucas.com/file/292726/download?token=wswAnzge
Overpredicting is a thing, it’s one of the biggest flaws in this country (having predicted grades under a linear exams system, so no standardised AS exam data to rely on like you can in Wales and NI and some teachers in some cases literally pulling predicted grades out of thin air or giving students a certain predicted grade simply because the student asks for it or to make the school look good). Someone with better knowledge of UCAS will know more though.
I think we might be the only country (UK especially England at it again for being unnecessarily unique), that uses a predicted grades system to apply to university but I could be ignorant on this point. Time for England to stop letting students apply with predicted grades under a linear exams system, have students apply with achieved A-level grades or make AS exams mandatory again even if they don’t count towards A2 grade, add the A* grade and have AS exam results=UCAS grades.
Original post by Talkative Toad
I think we might be the only country (UK especially England at it again for being unnecessarily unique), that uses a predicted grades system to apply to university but I could be ignorant on this point. Time for England to stop letting students apply with predicted grades under a linear exams system, have students apply with achieved A-level grades or make AS exams mandatory again even if they don’t count towards A2 grade, add the A* grade and have AS exam results=UCAS grades.
It's not even the predicted grades. Which exam board you do makes a difference. We are currently debating the merits of exam boards and which is deemed to be the "easiest". But as a student it is a complete con because doing the "easiest" exam board means you are not learning the subject in the same way and chances are you are missing bits out or cutting corners. And the most notorious exam board for easy exams is the Welsh board. If you are doing WJEC you are being robbed of a decent education.
Original post by hotpud
It's not even the predicted grades. Which exam board you do makes a difference. We are currently debating the merits of exam boards and which is deemed to be the "easiest". But as a student it is a complete con because doing the "easiest" exam board means you are not learning the subject in the same way and chances are you are missing bits out or cutting corners. And the most notorious exam board for easy exams is the Welsh board. If you are doing WJEC you are being robbed of a decent education.
Yeah, I mean I don't view an A* A-level grade earned in Wales or NI to be worth the same as A* A-level grade earned in England let's put it that way despite me having no expertise in education. This is because I believe linear exams (being assessed on several modules/units in 1 exam at the end of the 2-year course) are clearly harder and more rigorous than modular exams (being assessed on one module/unit at a time in each exam over a spread out timeframe similar to how exams are done at the vast majority of universities). I've seen a WJEC English Language paper and I think I can see the different in standard
Exam Toad had to sit (most popular exam board for GCSE English Language as well):
https://filestore.aqa.org.uk/sample-papers-and-mark-schemes/2019/june/AQA-87001-QP-JUN19-CR.PDF
https://filestore.aqa.org.uk/sample-papers-and-mark-schemes/2019/june/AQA-87001-INS-CR-JUN19.PDF
Exam WJEC pupils had to sit:
https://pastpapers.download.wjec.co.uk/Z22/z22-3700u20-1a.pdf
IGCSE edexcel English language A paper:
https://qualifications.pearson.com/content/dam/pdf/International%20GCSE/English%20Language%20A/2016/exam-materials/4EA1_01_que_20190605.pdf
Not sure about CCEA but I think you may have a point, there seems to be a difference in standard
I don't know how easy Welsh WJEC exam board is compared to others (I have looked at some GCSE Maths CCEA years ago and thought, dang, these look hard). One thing I do know is that I don't like AQA as they've messed up too many times now and that England has always had it harder it seems.
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