Surviving on a access course.
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Original post by ashtoreth
in my experience this one is about who you get at the jc and how lucky/unlucky you are that day.
this one hit me pretty hard. i can't claim anything and nor can i find a job that's part time to fit my classes.
they asked for a learners agreement (which shows course as FT!) which supercedes any letter the tutor provides. they looked at the website (college) and said course is described as FT therefore it is FT. the end. doesn't matter to them if you are doing one hour a week, if the course is classed as FT. they will treat it as such.
they also disregard the fact that a college categorises a course as FT if over 12hrs and JC's classify FT as over 16 - but to them, FT programme means u will be required to do out of class time study.
frankly it's all nonsense and my particular JC full of jobsworths who only seem interested in keeping claimant figures down! my tutor has urged me to write to the PM (cos she was saying every year they see their best students have to drop out cos of financial issues) and i still plan to, cos it was looking like i wouldn't be able to carry on but, my dad helps me out now n again and i HATE to have to ask him at my age and i am desperately looking for something whilst i study. meantime, i don't even have the money to put onto my printer account.
ironic that there is govt funding to go from JSA onto Access but, no provision for going from Access back onto JSA.
i have never been as poor as i currently am and i'm actually gonna have more income when at uni than i do just now. it sucks!
this one hit me pretty hard. i can't claim anything and nor can i find a job that's part time to fit my classes.
they asked for a learners agreement (which shows course as FT!) which supercedes any letter the tutor provides. they looked at the website (college) and said course is described as FT therefore it is FT. the end. doesn't matter to them if you are doing one hour a week, if the course is classed as FT. they will treat it as such.
they also disregard the fact that a college categorises a course as FT if over 12hrs and JC's classify FT as over 16 - but to them, FT programme means u will be required to do out of class time study.
frankly it's all nonsense and my particular JC full of jobsworths who only seem interested in keeping claimant figures down! my tutor has urged me to write to the PM (cos she was saying every year they see their best students have to drop out cos of financial issues) and i still plan to, cos it was looking like i wouldn't be able to carry on but, my dad helps me out now n again and i HATE to have to ask him at my age and i am desperately looking for something whilst i study. meantime, i don't even have the money to put onto my printer account.
ironic that there is govt funding to go from JSA onto Access but, no provision for going from Access back onto JSA.
i have never been as poor as i currently am and i'm actually gonna have more income when at uni than i do just now. it sucks!
Hey there, your situation is so similar to mine with the exception that I actually managed to claim JSA and have some money to get by, but still struggling really hard to make ends meet. I get help from my parents, otherwise I could not carry on with the Access course.
Chin up, think about uni and life after uni when hopefully you'll have a decent job and a nice salary. That's what I do when I feel low, It really keeps me going and gives me motivation to continue my studies.
I was on JSA but then did an Access course. I provided a letter from my College saying that I was only required to complete 15 hours per week of study. They accepted this and I continued on JSA. I signed on as usual, and was even sent on interviews by the JC.
I would interpret the Jobseeker's Allowance Decision Maker's guide in the following way:
30166: "When deciding whether a course is F/T, all of the studies and activities involved in it should be taken into account. This includes both supervised and unsupervised study and activity, whether done on or off college premises."
At uni, I have 2 hours contact time per module (four modules per year), however I am required to plough my way through an extensive reading list each week. That I would consider as study, as I am expanding and extending my knowledge. On my access course, we went through the course hand-outs in class, and I only needed to use them when writing essays and only to provide quotes. That is not learning anything new, and is not study.
30171: "Educational establishments may still classify courses or may be able to give an opinion on their nature. Accept evidence from the educational establishment as conclusive unless there is strong relevant evidence to the contrary."
Access courses are designed with JSA’s requirements in mind. They are designed to provide only 15 hours of what the colleges and OCN have designated as ‘study’. If the college says it is 15 hours, according to this rule, they should accept it.
30188: "F/T advanced courses may involve only a few such hours. Do not consider that in isolation. Students may also have to put in many hours of private study."
I refer again to university study (level 4), which I assume is what they are talking about (advanced study).
The most important consideration is that you are available for work. Work hours are 9-5 Monday to Friday. The law does not care what you do outside these hours. I told them I did my work evenings and weekends, they accepted this.
I think this is a case of a JC manager deciding to interpret the guidelines in a very narrow and restrictive way, the fact that it is not seen in all JC’s this way means that you might consider challenging it. Nothing concentrates a bureaucrats mind more than a letter from an MP, or an appeal.
I would interpret the Jobseeker's Allowance Decision Maker's guide in the following way:
30166: "When deciding whether a course is F/T, all of the studies and activities involved in it should be taken into account. This includes both supervised and unsupervised study and activity, whether done on or off college premises."
At uni, I have 2 hours contact time per module (four modules per year), however I am required to plough my way through an extensive reading list each week. That I would consider as study, as I am expanding and extending my knowledge. On my access course, we went through the course hand-outs in class, and I only needed to use them when writing essays and only to provide quotes. That is not learning anything new, and is not study.
30171: "Educational establishments may still classify courses or may be able to give an opinion on their nature. Accept evidence from the educational establishment as conclusive unless there is strong relevant evidence to the contrary."
Access courses are designed with JSA’s requirements in mind. They are designed to provide only 15 hours of what the colleges and OCN have designated as ‘study’. If the college says it is 15 hours, according to this rule, they should accept it.
30188: "F/T advanced courses may involve only a few such hours. Do not consider that in isolation. Students may also have to put in many hours of private study."
I refer again to university study (level 4), which I assume is what they are talking about (advanced study).
The most important consideration is that you are available for work. Work hours are 9-5 Monday to Friday. The law does not care what you do outside these hours. I told them I did my work evenings and weekends, they accepted this.
I think this is a case of a JC manager deciding to interpret the guidelines in a very narrow and restrictive way, the fact that it is not seen in all JC’s this way means that you might consider challenging it. Nothing concentrates a bureaucrats mind more than a letter from an MP, or an appeal.
Original post by Wibble99
I was on JSA but then did an Access course. I provided a letter from my College saying that I was only required to complete 15 hours per week of study. They accepted this and I continued on JSA. I signed on as usual, and was even sent on interviews by the JC.
I would interpret the Jobseeker's Allowance Decision Maker's guide in the following way:
30166: "When deciding whether a course is F/T, all of the studies and activities involved in it should be taken into account. This includes both supervised and unsupervised study and activity, whether done on or off college premises."
At uni, I have 2 hours contact time per module (four modules per year), however I am required to plough my way through an extensive reading list each week. That I would consider as study, as I am expanding and extending my knowledge. On my access course, we went through the course hand-outs in class, and I only needed to use them when writing essays and only to provide quotes. That is not learning anything new, and is not study.
30171: "Educational establishments may still classify courses or may be able to give an opinion on their nature. Accept evidence from the educational establishment as conclusive unless there is strong relevant evidence to the contrary."
Access courses are designed with JSA’s requirements in mind. They are designed to provide only 15 hours of what the colleges and OCN have designated as ‘study’. If the college says it is 15 hours, according to this rule, they should accept it.
30188: "F/T advanced courses may involve only a few such hours. Do not consider that in isolation. Students may also have to put in many hours of private study."
I refer again to university study (level 4), which I assume is what they are talking about (advanced study).
The most important consideration is that you are available for work. Work hours are 9-5 Monday to Friday. The law does not care what you do outside these hours. I told them I did my work evenings and weekends, they accepted this.
I think this is a case of a JC manager deciding to interpret the guidelines in a very narrow and restrictive way, the fact that it is not seen in all JC’s this way means that you might consider challenging it. Nothing concentrates a bureaucrats mind more than a letter from an MP, or an appeal.
I would interpret the Jobseeker's Allowance Decision Maker's guide in the following way:
30166: "When deciding whether a course is F/T, all of the studies and activities involved in it should be taken into account. This includes both supervised and unsupervised study and activity, whether done on or off college premises."
At uni, I have 2 hours contact time per module (four modules per year), however I am required to plough my way through an extensive reading list each week. That I would consider as study, as I am expanding and extending my knowledge. On my access course, we went through the course hand-outs in class, and I only needed to use them when writing essays and only to provide quotes. That is not learning anything new, and is not study.
30171: "Educational establishments may still classify courses or may be able to give an opinion on their nature. Accept evidence from the educational establishment as conclusive unless there is strong relevant evidence to the contrary."
Access courses are designed with JSA’s requirements in mind. They are designed to provide only 15 hours of what the colleges and OCN have designated as ‘study’. If the college says it is 15 hours, according to this rule, they should accept it.
30188: "F/T advanced courses may involve only a few such hours. Do not consider that in isolation. Students may also have to put in many hours of private study."
I refer again to university study (level 4), which I assume is what they are talking about (advanced study).
The most important consideration is that you are available for work. Work hours are 9-5 Monday to Friday. The law does not care what you do outside these hours. I told them I did my work evenings and weekends, they accepted this.
I think this is a case of a JC manager deciding to interpret the guidelines in a very narrow and restrictive way, the fact that it is not seen in all JC’s this way means that you might consider challenging it. Nothing concentrates a bureaucrats mind more than a letter from an MP, or an appeal.
The rules are there in black and white but it is up to the individual decision maker (not the claimant) to interpret them. As has been stated many times on this thread, how they are interpreted depends largely on where you live and which DM happens to pick up your case. Some people have managed to claim JSA whilst studying Access, some have not. It doesn't matter how much anecdotal evidence from one case you bring up, these are the facts.
There is very little support for mature students on Access courses. Worryingly, despite the copious guidelines in existence, there is little in the way of consistency in decision making. Furthermore, there appears to be no precedence in these decisions. Most importantly, just because a decision went a particular way for one individual means nothing for someone submitting a new claim.
Access courses are designed to meet OCN's criteria - the regulatory body . I have not seen any evidence that OCN has taken into account the policies of the DWP when devising their course guide. If you have well sourced evidence to the contrary I will most happily review it.
Personally, I'd love to see someone go to an appeal with the "writing an essay isn't study" defence - it would be a great laugh. More power to anyone with the balls to do it.
The decision is not always based on how many hours the college says you study. Instead, if the college classify the course as 'Full Time' then you can be denied JSA - even if your timetabled hours are below the maximum threshold. This because if a college designates a course as full-time they usually expect you to devote most of your time to study. Thus, a 12 hour per week course that is labelled as 'Full Time' by the college can result in your claim being denied.
If a college states that the course is part-time, or makes no classification and states that you are required to study for only 15 per week (including study at home) then your claim will probably go through. Very few colleges will do this however, because it would either be a very easy access course or a downright lie. My course is 14 contact hours with the college recommending 20+ hours in private study per week.
You seem to be implying that there is a difference between advanced study and non-advanced study and that could affect the claim. Whilst there is a difference between levels of study, and the guide does mention this, it doesn't appear to have a direct bearing on the situation. The guide warns the DM to look out for advanced courses with low advertised hours, however the same rules apply across the board. Hours on course = hours in college + hours in private study.
For clarity, I have reproduced the section on number of hours worked:
@maturestudy
I read the full document you have partially quoted, and it says at the beginning it is aimed at full-time students. However it does not differentiate between full and part time study, nor indeed is part-time study mentioned.
I would refer you to
21238 A P/T student is a person
And
21239 If claimants are doing P/T study or training or some test or examination, the DM should establish whether they
Also
21241 Claimants may follow P/T study or training during their pattern of availability. They
Finally
21252 If claimants are undertaking study or training at times that are outside of their pattern of availability no question on availability arises (see DMG 21434)
I go back to what I thought I was saying in my last post. If the college says it is a part-time course, then they should accept that (30171).
I was on a part time course, and I received JSA, that is not anecdotal, I am explaining my experience.
I read the full document you have partially quoted, and it says at the beginning it is aimed at full-time students. However it does not differentiate between full and part time study, nor indeed is part-time study mentioned.
I would refer you to
21238 A P/T student is a person
1.
who is attending or undertaking a course of study and
2.
who is not a F/T student (see DMG Chapter 30)
And
21239 If claimants are doing P/T study or training or some test or examination, the DM should establish whether they
1.
are willing and able to attend an interview or take up at once (but see DMG 21240) any employment that might arise and
2.
can be contacted promptly enough for any notification to reach them in time.
Also
21241 Claimants may follow P/T study or training during their pattern of availability. They
1.
are available if they are willing and able to confine their study or training to times that would fit in with any employment they might obtain or
2.
abandon their study or training at once to take up employment.
Finally
21252 If claimants are undertaking study or training at times that are outside of their pattern of availability no question on availability arises (see DMG 21434)
I go back to what I thought I was saying in my last post. If the college says it is a part-time course, then they should accept that (30171).
I was on a part time course, and I received JSA, that is not anecdotal, I am explaining my experience.
Original post by adrianinho10
Hey there, your situation is so similar to mine with the exception that I actually managed to claim JSA and have some money to get by, but still struggling really hard to make ends meet. I get help from my parents, otherwise I could not carry on with the Access course.
Chin up, think about uni and life after uni when hopefully you'll have a decent job and a nice salary. That's what I do when I feel low, It really keeps me going and gives me motivation to continue my studies.
Chin up, think about uni and life after uni when hopefully you'll have a decent job and a nice salary. That's what I do when I feel low, It really keeps me going and gives me motivation to continue my studies.
helloo fellow sufferer!
thank you for the encouraging words. must admit on better days that's what i try and focus on. the fact that there's a light and career at the end of my present tunnel.
think as well, as mature students, most of us were used to having an income, especially disposable - and i miss that.
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