The Student Room Group

Scroll to see replies

Original post by QuantumSuicide
Sounds long... Nvm, i dont think i broke any rules so i'll ask here again.

Was adam really 90 ft tall? I find this hard to believe since it's biologically impossible for a human to be that tall.

Posted from TSR Mobile


according to islamic tradition, Adam was 60 cubits tall- approx 89 and half feet, was created out of mud and clay form the ground and produced Eve his wife out of his rib. that is essentially what islam teaches, what your opinion of that is up to you
Original post by ash92:)


What contradictions?


Am I right in thinking that an Islamic doctrine is that Muhammed was sinless, and this is supported by various stories related in the tradition?
Original post by ash92:)
Hehe, ok. But it'll have to be very brief:

Logicality need not necessarily be restricted by direct observability. Nor need it be isolated by empirical science. Nor is it a thing to be limited or made exclusive by the mind, the intelligence, the reasoning, the line of thought of one man, or even one group of people. Nor is it a thing of generalisation.

"I'm sorry" - I don't think there's a specific du'a for that (except that maybe one could ask for forgiveness and guidance from Allah). Although, I am open to correction.


Posted from TSR Mobile


Yeah okay :yy:

Oh, you're going that route then. :smile:
But I guess that itself is debatable.

I like how you articulate your posts. Masha Allah :yy:. I wish I could write like that but I guess living in a country where 3 languages are dominantly spoken, its hard to focus and perfect one language.

Anyway, Eid-ul-fitr Mubarak! Happy eating va lillahil hamd!

Posted from TSR Mobile
Can I please remind everyone that this thread is a general Question and Answer only thread. Any further debate should be taken to another thread or PM.
I have cleaned up the thread this time, but in the future this kind of derailing could result in warning cards.

Let's get it back on track! :h:
Why did allah want the angels to prostrate to adam? I thought allah was only worthy of worship..?

Is it because man is allah's greatest creation? How can allah call humans his best creation when we are imperfect and we have vestigial organs?

Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by alwaysalex
Am I right in thinking that an Islamic doctrine is that Muhammed was sinless, and this is supported by various stories related in the tradition?


Can I ask for you to be more clear, please? Could you please, keeping in mind the nature of the thread, put forth your question as a whole, with reasoning, etc,? :h:
Original post by ash92:)
Can I ask for you to be more clear, please? Could you please, keeping in mind the nature of the thread, put forth your question as a whole, with reasoning, etc,? :h:


Sorry, I do realise I haven't been very clear at all! I'm not very familiar at all with Muslim beliefs, which is why I'm posting here of course!
Okay here goes.
I have read about something called the Isma doctrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismah), which I understand to be the Muslim belief that all profits are sinless, or at least excempt from major sins, but that they can still make mistakes and have faults.

However Surah 47:19 says "So know, [O Muhammed], that there is no deity except Allah and ask forgiveness for your sin and for the believing men and believing women. And Allah knows of your movement and your resting place." (Sahih International translation).

The word for sin used here is dhanb, which is also translated to sin when referring to murder (26:14) and adultery (12:29) so these can't have been little faults or mistakes God was telling Muhammed to ask for forgiveness for.

Furthermore in the Hadith he says: "So please forgive the sins which I have done in the past or I will do in the future, and also those (sins) which I did in secret or in public, and that which You know better than I. None has the right to be worshiped but you. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 9, p. 403)."

So how is this doctrine justified?! To me, this all seems like clear evidence from the Quran itself that Muhammed sinned and therefore had to ask God for forgiveness.
Original post by QuantumSuicide
Why did allah want the angels to prostrate to adam? I thought allah was only worthy of worship..?

Is it because man is allah's greatest creation? How can allah call humans his best creation when we are imperfect and we have vestigial organs?

Posted from TSR Mobile


Regarding the prostration, Tafseer explains it sufficiently:

Tafseer Ibn Katheer:

Spoiler



Ma'ariful-Quran:

Spoiler



As for how Allah can call humans His best creation, He created us with the choice to worship Him out of love, obedience and reverence - this, despite having ample opportunity not to do so, despite having the intellect to enable us to understand matters of great complexity and to ponder and reflect over the creation and to postulate theories regarding its nature, etc. etc.
Original post by alwaysalex
Sorry, I do realise I haven't been very clear at all! I'm not very familiar at all with Muslim beliefs, which is why I'm posting here of course!
Okay here goes.
I have read about something called the Isma doctrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismah), which I understand to be the Muslim belief that all profits are sinless, or at least excempt from major sins, but that they can still make mistakes and have faults.

However Surah 47:19 says "So know, [O Muhammed], that there is no deity except Allah and ask forgiveness for your sin and for the believing men and believing women. And Allah knows of your movement and your resting place." (Sahih International translation).

The word for sin used here is dhanb, which is also translated to sin when referring to murder (26:14) and adultery (12:29) so these can't have been little faults or mistakes God was telling Muhammed to ask for forgiveness for.

Furthermore in the Hadith he says: "So please forgive the sins which I have done in the past or I will do in the future, and also those (sins) which I did in secret or in public, and that which You know better than I. None has the right to be worshiped but you. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 9, p. 403)."

So how is this doctrine justified?! To me, this all seems like clear evidence from the Quran itself that Muhammed sinned and therefore had to ask God for forgiveness.


Thanks for clarifying :h:

Here is what Shaykh Faraz Rabbani has to say in explanation:

In the Name of Allah, Most Merciful and Compassionate

May Allah’s peace and blessings be upon His Messenger Muhammad, his folk, companions, and followers.

It is from obligatory Islamic belief that the Prophets were trustworthy and preserved from sin.

The classical definition of amana (trustworthiness), which relates to `isma (being preserved from sin) is:

“Allah Most High preserving the Prophets from falling into that which has been prohibited,” as explained by the commentators of the Jawhara. [Tattan/Kaylani, `Awn al-Murid `ala Jawharat al-Tawhid, 2.727; also: Bajuri, Tuhfat al-Murid]

Another definition of trustworthiness was given by the great 20th Century Hanafi scholar from Hama (Syria), Shaykh Muhammad al-Hamid in his work Rudud `ala Abatil [297, as quoted in the above text],

“It is a trait that Allah creates in His servant through which they are disposed to doing the good and that prevents them from the bad.”

The Proof for the Sinlessness of Prophets

Allah Most High has commanded us in the Qur’an to follow the Prophets in numerous verses that are decisive (qat`i) in their indication–such as, “These are the ones whom Allah has guided, so follow their guidance.” [Qur'an, Surat al-An`am: 90]

And Allah Most High has informed us that He only commands the good, and made it clear that He does not command the wrong or sinful.

Thus, it would be absurd for Allah to command us to unconditionally follow the Prophets and to take them as absolute exemplars if they were given to sin–for this would entail us fulfilling command of Allah through something that entails committing sin.
Qur’anic Correction of Prophets

When Allah corrects the Prophets in the Qur’an, this correcting is because they exercised their judgment, but their judgment–though good, sound, and not an act of ‘disobeying’ the Divine Command–was not ultimately the optimal course of action that Allah wished from them.

Thus, Adam (peace be upon him) ate from the tree not out of ‘disobedience’ of the Divine Command but because either he didn’t think that this fell under the prohibition; or out of unawareness; or because he believed the words of the Devil, for Adam didn’t conceive of anyone in Paradise lying. Allah corrected him immediately; and made him leave Paradise to manifest the honor of moral responsibility that He had in fact created Adam and his offspring for in the first place.

Thus, the ‘descent’ of Adam and Eve (Allah bless them and give them peace) from Paradise was in fact a ‘raising’ in rank and an ultimate honor. They sought Allah’s forgiveness because of their awe of the Divine, and because of the inherent sense of shortcoming and humility that the best of creation have when they consider what is due to Allah Most High–absolutely everything.

Similarly, in every instance in which Allah Most High corrects the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) in the Qur’an, our Beloved Messenger had acted in a sound and noble manner–it is simply a case that Allah Most High wished another yet higher course of action. This manifests Allah’s divine concern (`inaya) for His Beloved (Allah bless him and give him peace), and is a lesson for all humanity to be humble before the Divine.

[See: Bajuri, Tuhfat al-Murid; Tattan/Kaylani, `Awn al-Murid; Qari/Qadi Iyad, Sharh al-Shifa; Kashmiri, Fayd al-Bari `ala Sahih al-Bukhari; Farhari/Taftazani, al-Nibras `ala Sharh al-`Aqa'id al-Nasafiyya]

And Allah alone gives success.
Wassalam,
Faraz Rabbani


Shaykh Faraz Rabbani, Seekersguidance

Ustad Tabraze Azam wrote a brilliant explanation of the matter when he was asked this question too, also in reference of ayah 47:19. Below is his reply:

I pray that you are in the best of health and faith, insha’Allah.

Yes, Ibn Kathir did include these supplications of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace). However, this does not negate his (Allah bless him and give him peace) infallibility or that of the other Messengers (Allah bless them and give them all peace).
The definition of trustworthiness (amana) is: “Allah’s protection of the inward and outward of the Prophets from committing something prohibited, even if only disliked, and even during their childhood. And this is termed `isma (being preserved from sin).” [al-Dardir, Sharh al-Kharida al-Bahiyya]

The belief of Ahl al-Sunna is that the Prophets (Allah bless them and give them all peace) are protected from major and minor sins, before and after prophethood.

The Traditions of the Prophet’s (Allah bless him and give him peace) Asking for Forgiveness

There are many traditions (hadith) which contain supplications of the Holy Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) in which he asks Allah for forgiveness; likewise, we have numerous traditions in which he (Allah bless him and give him peace) tells us of his constant repentance to his Lord.

For example, Abu Huraira related that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, “By Allah, I ask forgiveness of Allah and I turn in repentance to Him more than seventy times a day.” [Bukhari]

Ibn `Allan states, “Herein is a motivation for the community (umma) to repent and seek forgiveness because he (Allah bless him and give him peace), despite being Divinely protected from sin and the best of creation, was repentant and sought forgiveness seventy times daily. And his (Allah bless him and give him peace) seeking forgiveness was not from sin, rather it was from his considering himself (Allah bless him and give him peace) deficient in his slavehood in relation to that which the Divine Presence demanded.” [Ibn `Allan, Dalil al-Falihin] And he (Allah bless him and give him peace) considered a sin anything that could potentially distract him from complete and perfect presence with the Divine.

As for the report mentioned by Ibn Kathir in his Tafsir, it too is found in Bukhari’s Sahih wherein it is related that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) used to say, “O Lord, forgive me my errors and ignorance and my prodigality in my affair and what You know best of me in it. O Allah, forgive me what I do in jest and what I do seriously my errors, and what I do intentionally. All of that is with me.”

Here Imam Munawi, author of the brilliant Fayd al-Qadir Sharh Jami` al-Saghir, comments: “i.e. ‘All of that is possible (i.e. present), so forgive me for it.’ He said this out of humility, or intending it for that which happened forgetfully or unintentionally, or before prophethood, or simply to set a precedent for his community.”

The Verse Commanding to Seek Forgiveness

Allah Most High says, “So [Prophet], bear in mind that there is no god but God, and ask forgiveness for your sins and for the sins of believing men and women. God knows whenever any of you move, and whenever any of you stay still.” [47.19]

Abu al-Su`ud Effendi was one of the Grand Muftis of the Ottoman Empire, and a master exegete of the Qur’an producing one of the finest works in the field, Irshad al-`Aql al-Salim ila Mazaya al-Kitab al-Karim. At the relevant part of the verse above, he comments that this was perhaps from that which was sub-optimal for the Holy Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), and that Allah referred to it as a “sin” in view of his exalted rank. How could it be otherwise when the good deeds of the righteous (abrar) are sins of those brought near (muqarrabin)!

Biqa`i mentioned that because the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) was continually rising in degrees to higher stations, the previous, lower station in relation to the higher station was akin to a sin with respect to him. And others have said that his seeking forgiveness was simply to establish a sunna for his community as he (Allah bless him and give him peace) was free and exalted from sin. [Biqa`i, Nazm al-Durar fi Tanasub al-Ayat wa al-Suwar; al-Suyuti/al-Mahlli, Tafsir al-Jalalayn]

May Allah give us the tawfiq to show due veneration to our Holy Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), and all of the Prophets and Messengers (Allah bless them and give them all peace), and recognize their exalted rank as perfected slaves of Allah.

See also: How do We Understand the Sinlessness of Prophets in Light of Their Reprimand in the Qur’an? and: How Are the Prophets Protected from Error and Sin? and: Are the Prophets Protected from Sin?

And Allah alone gives success.
Wassalam,
Tabraze Azam


Ustad Tabraze Azam, Seekersguidance
Original post by alwaysalex
Am I right in thinking that an Islamic doctrine is that Muhammed was sinless, and this is supported by various stories related in the tradition?




I want to add this to what Ash posted:

The Messenger, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, was not just a mere messenger but also a teacher. He was sinless but that didn't stop him from asking forgiveness. In fact even after Allah revealed the verse that pardons him for any fault of the past and the future (not that he had any, but it prevents his followers to repeat what some Christians thought of David (AS) - believing him to have done grave sins and that he couldn't help himself), he still asked for forgiveness. He had to be a perfect example, teaching us how to ask for forgiveness. :smile:
Original post by RoyalBlue7
I want to add this to what Ash posted:

The Messenger, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, was not just a mere messenger but also a teacher. He was sinless but that didn't stop him from asking forgiveness. In fact even after Allah revealed the verse that pardons him for any fault of the past and the future (not that he had any, but it prevents his followers to repeat what some Christians thought of David (AS) - believing him to have done grave sins and that he couldn't help himself), he still asked for forgiveness. He had to be a perfect example, teaching us how to ask for forgiveness. :smile:


Hi - thanks for this answer. Could you tell which verse it is you're reffering to above?
Original post by ash92:)


...



Thank you!
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by alwaysalex
Hi - thanks for this answer. Could you tell which verse it is you're reffering to above?


48:1-2

Indeed, We have given you, [O Muhammad], a clear conquest

That Allah may forgive for you what preceded of your sin and what will follow and complete His favor upon you and guide you to a straight path

This always reminds me of a beautiful hadith :smile:

The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, would pray until his feet were swollen. It was said, “Why do you do this when Allah has forgiven your past and future sins?” The Prophet said, Shall I not be a grateful servant?
Source: Sahih Muslim 2819
Original post by RoyalBlue7
48:1-2

Indeed, We have given you, [O Muhammad], a clear conquest

That Allah may forgive for you what preceded of your sin and what will follow and complete His favor upon you and guide you to a straight path

This always reminds me of a beautiful hadith :smile:

The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, would pray until his feet were swollen. It was said, “Why do you do this when Allah has forgiven your past and future sins?” The Prophet said, Shall I not be a grateful servant?
Source: Sahih Muslim 2819


But surely forgiving is different from pardoning? And when the verse says "and what will follow (of your sin)" isn't this suggesting that Muhammad would sin in the future?
Original post by alwaysalex
But surely forgiving is different from pardoning? And when the verse says "and what will follow (of your sin)" isn't this suggesting that Muhammad would sin in the future?


Yes, it should be rather to forgive. When God forgives he erases off the sins, and allows the sinner to repent and return to his original standing or even higher.

Well as for that, whether or not the verse implies that the Prophet actually had sins - I'm not sure...:redface:
Original post by RoyalBlue7
Yes, it should be rather to forgive. When God forgives he erases off the sins, and allows the sinner to repent and return to his original standing or even higher.

Well as for that, whether or not the verse implies that the Prophet actually had sins - I'm not sure...:redface:


Thanks :smile:
Please could someone let me know how did Mohammed died. Please could you provide Quran verses explaining why you believe this, much thanks.
Original post by Grace by Yahweh
Please could someone let me know how did Mohammed died.


Muhammad (pbuh) died of fever AFAIK. He was poisoned but that was 3 years before his death.... hope someone else can uncover the whole mystery for you.

Please could you provide Quran verses explaining why you believe this, much thanks.


Erm, how can there be any Quranic verse about his death after Muhammad (pbuh) has died and there was no Messenger (that is, Muhammad (pbuh)) to receive it? :confused:
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Grace by Yahweh
Please could someone let me know how did Mohammed died. Please could you provide Quran verses explaining why you believe this, much thanks.


Not directly by poisoning, if that's what you're wanting to find out :smile:

He passed away due to illness. his illness came on after his assigned tasks were completed, and he knew that his time was near. I wrote a post on some thread a while back when a Christian TSRian suggested that the cause was 'poisoned to death' and that he didn't know. I can't remember if that was you, Grace :smile:
Original post by ash92:)
Not directly by poisoning, if that's what you're wanting to find out :smile:

He passed away due to illness. his illness came on after his assigned tasks were completed, and he knew that his time was near. I wrote a post on some thread a while back when a Christian TSRian suggested that the cause was 'poisoned to death' and that he didn't know. I can't remember if that was you, Grace :smile:


as a follow up question i would ask here given that, islam was not adopted by mankind ( or even the entire region) by the time of mohammeds death at around 59 years old, why wasnt he given 800 odd years of life to spread islam, as other prophets were in islamic tradition

Latest

Trending

Trending