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Original post by barratt15
And for the love of all things holy, Americans DO GET HEALTHCARE! Emergency care is given to all. And 80% of the population is protected by health insurance.


All but 100% with the recent healthcare changes enacted by Obama :smile:
Original post by alex5455
i tend to ignore any post he makes at me, hes like a stuck record


No, its b/c you cannot reply to the posts with any semblance of logic LOL. You mentioned for example that US pre-university education is poor, but when presented with facts which rate the US at 20th (10 places ahead of the UK which ranks 30th), you shut-up and did not provide a retort, b/c you couldn't. Your pathetic :biggrin:
Original post by barratt15

Original post by barratt15
Don't know what you are going on about. We colonised what is now mainland America. Our King ruled their country with an iron fist and AMERICANS paid taxes to a British Parliament they had no say in electing. You ever heard of 'no taxation without representation'? Yet another example of American 'genocide' or something is it?

And for the love of all things holy, Americans DO GET HEALTHCARE! Emergency care is given to all. And 80% of the population is protected by health insurance.


British citizens were sent to colonise america, hence the term colony? ergo they were british up untill the revolution so not americans... and we colonised part of mainland america ... ever heard of the spanish, french and russian territories?
whats taxation got to do with wiping out the indians?


Original post by barratt15
My historical analysis tells me those events happened centuries after the Founders were, you know, Founding and all that.

Columbine, for god's sake! Two crazy teenagers hyped up through playing violent games, and that reflects the morals of Jefferson and the like?!?!

Let's all find individual crimes and say they're caused by the Founding Fathers' concept of America!


why cant you just put your replies into one? it makes me replying a lot easier...
yes the point of them being founding fathers is they leave a founding legacy? but very whitty none the less props.

i mention columbine for the simple fact that the constitution they drew up allows teenage boys to grab any form of weapon they feel the need to and go on a school rampage?
Reply 103
Original post by MirandaPanda
No, its b/c you cannot reply to the posts with any semblance of logic LOL. You mentioned for example that US pre-university education is poor, but when presented with facts which rate the US at 20th (10 places ahead of the UK which ranks 30th), you shut-up and did not provide a retort, b/c you couldn't. Your pathetic :biggrin:


lol, just lol.
Original post by Gales
lol, just lol.


:facepalm:

He's pathetic b/c knowing that his moronic 'logic' has been countered, he/she now cannot fathom to provide any semblance of a retort; sort of like you, as I have yet to hear a retort to my last post and more interesting however, post 85 where jacketpotato pretty much completely owned and shut you up you outright :biggrin:
Reply 106
Original post by MirandaPanda
:facepalm:

He's pathetic b/c knowing that his moronic 'logic' has been countered, he/she now cannot fathom to provide any semblance of a retort; sort of like you, as I have yet to hear a retort to my last post and more interesting however, post 85 where jacketpotato pretty much completely owned and shut you up you outright :biggrin:


Because I had already stated the reason why I used the whole of the USA rather than cherry picked a state. I had enough of repeating myself by then so I left you and DYKIA chat. Anyway, the use of elongated and pretentious vocabulary doesn't making you look any more sophisticated, just so you know.
Original post by Gales
Because I had already stated the reason why I used the whole of the USA rather than cherry picked a state. I had enough of repeating myself by then so I left you and DYKIA chat.


Translation: I could not retort JacketPotatoes post and instead of admitting to my own idiocy, I have decided to give another stupid reason as to why I did not respond. Me and DYKIA have nothing to do with it, as the issue is between you and JP, to which you have piped down after his last post.

JP posted a lengthy and reasoned reply which all but decimated your 'argument' in comparing a country as large as the US to the UK, not to mention that the US is more progressive on such issues than the UK, and you did not answer it b/c you couldn't period. Stop pretending otherwise LOL :facepalm:

Anyway, the use of elongated and pretentious vocabulary doesn't making you look any more sophisticated, just so you know.


"Elongated and pretentious vocabulary"? Such as what LOL? Here I was thinking that I was just replying in a usual manner any educated person would (heck check my post history as you'll find all of my posts are the same), but apologies nonetheless, for not replying in your customary herp-derp-berp US is badzz!!1 fashion that you may be used to.

Got it blud?
Reply 108
Original post by MirandaPanda
x


Err, at the end of the day I said that attitudes and advancements of rights was overall better in the UK, than in the USA. Please explain how that is incorrect. Other than that, I haven't criticised the USA once apart from healthcare. So stop making assumptions, ok, blud? (Vehemently dislike that word, have no idea why you used it to be honest.)
Original post by cl_steele
whilst that is of course true they do get hospital treatment, from what i've been led to believe if you dont have health insurance you go to a substandard hospital for treatment, if your insurance runs out youre out on your ass and your treatment is stopped or youre left with vast debts to manage... i dont understand how the 'richest country in the world' demands its people pay for what is a basic human right but at the same time spends around $700,000,000,000 on defence...


US Hospitals have to offer emergency care without upfront payment, I don't think its true you have to go to a substandard hospital. In any event, even substandard hospitals in the US are better funded than the NHS in the UK, largely because the US spends almost twice as much a % of its GDP on healthcare than we do.

In addition, many low-earners qualify for free healthcare funded by the government (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicaid) in addition to state programmes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_health_care_reform).

In reality, pretty much everyone has access to healthcare in the US. There are serious problems (people who fall through the gaps because they don't qualify for medicaid; out of control costs) but its not as bad as Europeans make out.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Gales
Err, at the end of the day I said that attitudes and advancements of rights was overall better in the UK, than in the USA. Please explain how that is incorrect.


Please see JacketaPotatoes' post below, which acutely sums up the utter idiocy you display in your posts; indeed, I (finally) look forward to your reply on it. Its post 85, so feel free to reply to it directly and not this post itself. From here on in, this is what JP has posted;

Originally Posted by Gales
Nation-wide legalisation in the USA would be a triump for human rights, and it would set an excellent example worldwide.


This sentence is the problem with the basic attitude of many Brits. America is not just one big country, it is a federation of 51 independent states with their own legislature, their own governer, their own social policy, their own economic policy, their own culture and their own laws.

There is nothing inherently "better" about having a distant federal government deciding on laws from Washington D.C. instead of a body elected in that state. ITaking your logic to its natural conclusion, we should hand all law-making powers to the "progressive" EU.

Again, even without gay marriage, gays in the UK have much more rights than those in the USA (not only wg to unions, but also blood donation, adoption etc.). At least one can envisage it happening nation-wide in the UK. The truth is every citizen in the UK has access to a same-sex union (which gives all the same rights as marriage, bar the use of the name 'marriage') whilst around 30 states in the USA have no recognition of same-sex unions, with 18 states having constitutional bans on same-sex unions.


You can dress it up any way you want - the fact is some states have legalised gay marriage; the UK has not and there is no certainty that it will. If we are using gay marriage as the milestone, then Massachussets/Iowa/Washington/others are more progressive than the UK. That is a simple fact and you can't argue your way out of it.

Obviously it is true that some other states are less progressive, but thats what happens in a federal system - some states will be less progressive than others, just how we are less progressive than other European countries in all sorts of areas.

Blood donation is a pretty bad example given that the ban on homosexual men giving blood in the UK was only lifted in October, and the federal FDA is considering doing the same in the US. Even if you agree that gay adoption is part of gay rights (many strongly contest this) its still a weak example, google says only three states restrict lesbian/gay adoptoin.
Reply 111
Original post by cl_steele
British citizens were sent to colonise america, hence the term colony? ergo they were british up untill the revolution so not americans...


They were Americans. We dominated them and attempted to make them British, but they were always Americans. British in name only.

Original post by cl_steele
why cant you just put your replies into one? it makes me replying a lot easier...
yes the point of them being founding fathers is they leave a founding legacy?


Kent State was perpetrated by the National Guard. It was a sad day and a tragedy. But the point of the NG is to protect the states, Ohio in this case, from intrusion from the federal government. They learnt their lesson after they kicked us out and implemented divided government, separation of powers and states' rights. Kent State was caused by trigger-happy guardsmen not the Fathers' decision to create such a militia.

Original post by cl_steele
i mention columbine for the simple fact that the constitution they drew up allows teenage boys to grab any form of weapon they feel the need to and go on a school rampage?


And that's again not what the Second Amendment says. Read it. Also, I think these kids would have found the guns to commit their heinous crime either way. Stop taking isolated incidents and blaming them on 'the system'. Sometimes, unforseen and bad things happen. There is no rhyme nor reason. The American system of government is one of the most effective representative legislatures in the world. And it was borne out of the Founding Fathers with their Declaration of Independence and self-evident truths. The American ideal is not the cause of all problems in American society. People should stop looking for a cause-effect link that doesn't exist.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc applies here more than any other expression.
Original post by jacketpotato

Original post by jacketpotato
This is untrue. Hospitals have to offer emergency care without upfront payment. Even substandard hospitals in the US are better funded than the NHS in the UK, largely because the US spends almost twice as much a % of its GDP on healthcare than we do.

In addition, many low-earners qualify for free healthcare funded by the government (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicaid) in addition to state programmes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_health_care_reform).

In reality, pretty much everyone has access to healthcare in the US. There are serious problems (people who fall through the gaps; out of control costs) but its not as bad as Europeans make out.


that may be true but america has a population nearly 5x the size of the UK so relative shouldnt their healthcare receive more regardless of the fact their economy is worth so much more than any euopean country anyway?

aye, i could very well be wrong so feel free to correct me, but wasnt the budget for medicaid and the program for the elderly slashed in their budget?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/05/earlyshow/health/main5064981.shtml
read that it makes for insightful reading regarding the effects of being uninsured or lacking in sufficient insurance

oh of course i agree its not a completely evil system as generally speaking the healthcare people do receive is excellent however the fact they have to pay for it is what i object to so vehemently as healthcare should be a basic human right and for a country as wealthy as the US is allowing something like this to happen whilst at the same time having a defence budget significantly out stripping many countries GDP
Reply 113
Original post by MirandaPanda
Please see JacketaPotatoes' post below, which acutely sums up the utter idiocy you display in your posts; indeed, I (finally) look forward to your reply on it. Its post 85, so feel free to reply to it directly and not this post itself. From here on in, this is what JP has posted;


Well keep waiting darling because most of that post was irrelevant to everything I said. You brough up same-sex marriage and compared the US and UK situation, I purely gave my reply. Which you can go re-read if you've forgotten already. I do concede that some states are more liberal than areas of the UK, however, the original question referred to the whole of the USA to which I responded, then you went off on a tangent and started referring to specific states when the thread explicitly mentions the US as a whole. I will admit that the blood donation thing was a little dodgy, as it was only recent, but you cannot criticise me on that when you used the NY gay marriage example, which was also very recent. I understand different states have different social and economic customs, but that's also irrelevant to what was originally said.
(edited 12 years ago)
*sigh*

Though I've only skimmed the majority of this thread, I feel a bit disheartened by the whole thing. Since when did it become cool to bash others for their beliefs? I do realize many people have made sensible debate, but some of the posts are just brazen hate-spewing filth.

I am an American. A very proud American. There are many pitfalls to my country, and there are many beautiful things that no other place in the world could offer (Go ahead. Tell me you have something like the Grand Canyon!). My constitution allows me the freedom from any one religion. I have the freedom of speech, which many people do not fully understand the beauty of. I am afforded an incredible judicial system - a system that has been adopted by many other governments around the world.

Same sex marriage may not be legal in all states, but my friends have the freedom to express their love. And should they be attacked by bigoted individuals, my laws PROTECT my friends from harm.

My constitution affords me the right to bear arms! A right I excercise daily by carrying a concealed weapon, which I am permitted to do via law and license.

One point of contention I have with DYKWIA (there are many, but I won't go there) is his assumption that if you don't have some form of health care, that you must be either lazy or irresponsible or without a job. It is unfortunate that this is his perspective, because I am a person caught in the middle. I am quite successful, have a thriving freelance business, yet I do not have health insurance. This is NOT of my choosing, and I do have MANY qualms with the US healthcare system, but it is NOT a bad system. The INSURANCE system is the one that needs an overhaul. I can not get insurance independently because of my extensive health history (I have been blacklisted from every legitimate insurance company). I don't qualify for state OR federal assistance because I make too much money. I DON'T, however, make enough to "put away for a rainy day", because my rainy days include frequent hospital visits for my many ailments. I am one of the hundreds of thousands of people that fall through the cracks in the US healthcare system, and nobody cares about us. We just get lumped in with the "lazy, unemployed" type of people.

Not all Americans are ill-informed, racist, bigoted or brazen. Sure, I carry a gun, but that doesn't make me a gin-swigging, racist redneck with no clue of international culture. I see both sides of the fence, and I appreciate the diversity my country allows. Are there bad people here? Sure. But there are bad people everywhere! We're a collection of 50 independent states (edit: 50 states, and many popular territories), and I guarantee you the people you find here in Florida are ENTIRELY different than the people you find in Alabama, even though we share a border!

America is a great country. The UK is a great union. Every place has its pitfalls, but it feels like to many people are focusing on old stereotypes that simply don't exist here anymore.
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 115
Original post by barratt15
Fat lot of good that's doing us. Check the latest employment figures. NHS doesn't mean fit, healthy, happy workforce. It's also hopelessly inefficient and in need of serious reform.


Unemployment is a different argument, but relative to a workforce that doesn't have access to healthcare, then the nhs does mean a healthier workforce. But I take your point, the nhs's pro's/cons are mute when unemployment is so high
Reply 116
[QUOTE="You;36392010" Just="Just" Like="Like"]*sigh*

Though I've only skimmed the majority of this thread, I feel a bit disheartened by the whole thing. Since when did it become cool to bash others for their beliefs? I do realize many people have made sensible debate, but some of the posts are just brazen hate-spewing filth.

I am an American. A very proud American. There are many pitfalls to my country, and there are many beautiful things that no other place in the world could offer (Go ahead. Tell me you have something like the Grand Canyon!). My constitution allows me the freedom from any one religion. I have the freedom of speech, which many people do not fully understand the beauty of. I am afforded an incredible judicial system - a system that has been adopted by many other governments around the world.

Same sex marriage may not be legal in all states, but my friends have the freedom to express their love. And should they be attacked by bigoted individuals, my laws PROTECT my friends from harm.

My constitution affords me the right to bear arms! A right I excercise daily by carrying a concealed weapon, which I am permitted to do via law and license.

One point of contention I have with DYKWIA (there are many, but I won't go there) is his assumption that if you don't have some form of health care, that you must be either lazy or irresponsible or without a job. It is unfortunate that this is his perspective, because I am a person caught in the middle. I am quite successful, have a thriving freelance business, yet I do not have health insurance. This is NOT of my choosing, and I do have MANY qualms with the US healthcare system, but it is NOT a bad system. The INSURANCE system is the one that needs an overhaul. I can not get insurance independently because of my extensive health history (I have been blacklisted from every legitimate insurance company). I don't qualify for state OR federal assistance because I make too much money. I DON'T, however, make enough to "put away for a rainy day", because my rainy days include frequent hospital visits for my many ailments. I am one of the hundreds of thousands of people that fall through the cracks in the US healthcare system, and nobody cares about us. We just get lumped in with the "lazy, unemployed" type of people.

Not all Americans are ill-informed, racist, bigoted or brazen. Sure, I carry a gun, but that doesn't make me a gin-swigging, racist redneck with no clue of international culture. I see both sides of the fence, and I appreciate the diversity my country allows. Are there bad people here? Sure. But there are bad people everywhere! We're a collection of 52 independent states, and I guarantee you the people you find here in Florida are ENTIRELY different than the people you find in Alabama, even though we share a border!

America is a great country. The UK is a great union. Every place has its pitfalls, but it feels like to many people are focusing on old stereotypes that simply don't exist here anymore.


A very well-balanced and well-put summation of the debate. I hope I've conveyed in my posts some of what you said from the perspective of an outlooker looking in, although not as eloquently as you put it. But I have to ask - 52 states? What 2 am I missing? xD
Reply 117
Original post by KCosmo
Unemployment is a different argument, but relative to a workforce that doesn't have access to healthcare, then the nhs does mean a healthier workforce. But I take your point, the nhs's pro's/cons are mute when unemployment is so high


But, of course, many employers provide private health insurance for their workers anyway - based upon the principle you mentioned. Private care is better than public, so I'm not sure a nationalised system does what it says on the tin with regards to worker health.
Original post by barratt15
A very well-balanced and well-put summation of the debate. I hope I've conveyed in my posts some of what you said from the perspective of an outlooker looking in, although not as eloquently as you put it. But I have to ask - 52 states? What 2 am I missing? xD


d'oh. Well, I say states because I'm used to it, but the more correct term would be territories. There are 50 states and many owned territories, but Puerto Rico, US Virgin Islands and Guam are the most popular territories. You can travel to them freely as a US citizen (not 100% on all the territories, though). I know I shouldn't, but I sort of refer to Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands as 51 and 52 (mostly because they're so close and within easy travel distance!)

But officially, there's only 50 states :smile: Now I've gone back and edited my original post so I don't look like an idiot, LOL.
(edited 12 years ago)
Im not being funny, but its a contradiction within itself-America the land of the free, its quite the opposite, the land has been savagley taken from the true people of America, the Native American Indians, and they still to this day are denied the rights that the so called"american citizens" have.

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