Queen Meets Ex- IRA Commander
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Original post by flugelr
Actually, I'd suggest that there is a huge difference between premeditated murder and "heat-of-the-moment" murder.
Well maybe you would like to describe the "heat-of-the-moment" that the British Army got into during a peaceful civil rights march which resulted in the death of 14 people?
Original post by flugelr
Pull the other one. Sure, Warrington is the economic powerhouse of the UK, I won't dispute that (
), but when you plant bombs on a busy high street and time them to go off midday on a Saturday then you are undeniably targeting civilians. I don't believe the PIRA thought that blowing up a McDonald's would bring down the UK.
), but when you plant bombs on a busy high street and time them to go off midday on a Saturday then you are undeniably targeting civilians. I don't believe the PIRA thought that blowing up a McDonald's would bring down the UK.Why do you feel the need to relate the troubles to blowing up an "Argos" and "McDonalds" when this is not remotely relevent. Their aim wasn't to bring the UK down, it was to remove British Occupation from the north east of our island This just proves how inconsiderate you are to the victims of a war. When did I say Warrington was a economic powerhouse? You really need to brush up on your argumentative skills.
Original post by flugelr
As I said before, the PIRA were based on a campaign of terrorism. The British military was not.
Then why did the British Army help terrorists? If they were so "squeaky clean" which they were not, then they would take the moral high ground and refuse to work with anyone who were terrorists. So I really don't think the British are one to judge who are terrorists and who are not, just because there is a significant media machine constantly reinforcing the idea that British Soldiers are an army of "heroes" which is complete tripe.
They have no right or legitimate claim to any yard of this island, and you know it.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by nmccann
Well maybe you would like to describe the "heat-of-the-moment" that the British Army got into during a peaceful civil rights march which resulted in the death of 14 people?
You're totally missing the issue. There is a huge difference between sitting down to plan an attack, and finding yourself in a situation which you then re-act to.
Original post by nmccann
Why do you feel the need to relate the troubles to blowing up an "Argos" and "McDonalds" when this is not remotely relevent.
We were talking about Warrington. In Warrington the PIRA placed bombs outside an Argos and outside a McDonalds.
I was pointing out that these were not military targets, they were civilian targets. Warrington didn't even have a regular army base nearby!
Original post by nmccann
Their aim wasn't to bring the UK down, it was to remove British Occupation from the north east of our island This just proves how inconsiderate you are to the victims of a war.
How does that prove I'm inconsiderate?
Original post by nmccann
When did I say Warrington was a economic powerhouse?
In your previous post you said that,
Original post by nmccann
Its intention was to create economic damage
I was (sarcastically) pointing out that no-one seriously looking to cause economic damage would attack Warrington.
Original post by nmccann
They have no right or legitimate claim to any yard of this island, and you know it.
Well, apart from the fact that 73% of the population of Northern Ireland support NI staying in the UK (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jun/17/life-and-times-survey-united-ireland). I'd call that fairly legitimate.
Original post by flugelr
You're totally missing the issue. There is a huge difference between sitting down to plan an attack, and finding yourself in a situation which you then re-act to.
We were talking about Warrington. In Warrington the PIRA placed bombs outside an Argos and outside a McDonalds.
I was pointing out that these were not military targets, they were civilian targets. Warrington didn't even have a regular army base nearby!
How does that prove I'm inconsiderate?
In your previous post you said that,
I was (sarcastically) pointing out that no-one seriously looking to cause economic damage would attack Warrington.
Well, apart from the fact that 73% of the population of Northern Ireland support NI staying in the UK (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jun/17/life-and-times-survey-united-ireland). I'd call that fairly legitimate.
We were talking about Warrington. In Warrington the PIRA placed bombs outside an Argos and outside a McDonalds.
I was pointing out that these were not military targets, they were civilian targets. Warrington didn't even have a regular army base nearby!
How does that prove I'm inconsiderate?
In your previous post you said that,
I was (sarcastically) pointing out that no-one seriously looking to cause economic damage would attack Warrington.
Well, apart from the fact that 73% of the population of Northern Ireland support NI staying in the UK (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jun/17/life-and-times-survey-united-ireland). I'd call that fairly legitimate.
Go back a few pages, no such mention of "Warrington" and "economic powerhouse" in the same sentence.
Tbh I really could not be arsed my discussing my countries history with an outsider
Original post by James82
We did release Northern Ireland, when we released the Irish Free State it was as a united Ireland, the North just opted to rejoin the UK. Churchill also offered the Republic the opportunity of a united Ireland during the war, but they refused. So both sides have had opportunities of a united Ireland and both have turned them down.
But who was it that decided Northern Ireland should be a "unit" with the option to be separate from the rest of Ireland? It obviously wasn't done on a county by county or province by province basis.
Original post by James82
Nelson Mandela was a terrorist, I guess it depends whether you agree with a terrorist's cause as to whether you have respect for them.
i think its got more to do with the success of the terrorist. I have no doubt that the majority of the members of the IRA felt oppressed by the British in the same way the blacks felt oppressed by the whites.
thats not to say I agree with their methods though (IRA or ANC) I nearly lost my dad to an ANC bomb in a wimpy restruant (family restruant, lots of children etc) despite the fact he was on the anti-apartheid side and fighting against it.
Original post by Taggart
i think its got more to do with the success of the terrorist. I have no doubt that the majority of the members of the IRA felt oppressed by the British in the same way the blacks felt oppressed by the whites.
thats not to say I agree with their methods though (IRA or ANC) I nearly lost my dad to an ANC bomb in a wimpy restruant (family restruant, lots of children etc) despite the fact he was on the anti-apartheid side and fighting against it.
thats not to say I agree with their methods though (IRA or ANC) I nearly lost my dad to an ANC bomb in a wimpy restruant (family restruant, lots of children etc) despite the fact he was on the anti-apartheid side and fighting against it.
Your exactly right. The methods of both have been cowardly at times, yet it was an inevitable consequence of the social/political conditions.
How can people be so inconsiderate of the other side? Northern Ireland was a "cold house for catholics" throughout the 20th century, a quote from David Trimble. From 1921 to 1972 not a single catholic was in Parliamentary Government in Northern Ireland. A peaceful civil rights movement was brutally crushed on Bloody Sunday, and that day changed the course of the conflict.
LIB is a bigot and a moron. I am not even going to address the absurdities in his arguments.
Undoubtedly the loss of civilian life is a tragedy. Loyalists, Republicans and the British state are all equally responsible. But to justify one death whilst disregarding another is a dangerous philosophy.
Martin McG is a democratically elected politican, the Good Friday agreement recognised the legitimate claims of both sides, the British security forces are currently under investigation for collusion, Republicans/Loyalists/Security forces killed civilians. Blood is on everyones hands, to consider the past a battle of good versus evil is infantile, thus highlighting a lack of mature critical analysis. Good men and women like Eamon McCann, Ivan Cooper, Gerry Fitt, John Hume, Benadette Devlin and far too many more to mention, tried to prevent what ultimately happened. A peaceful civil rights movement was crushed and the rest is a dark patch in our shared history. But if ilinformed unilateral absolutist views of history are touted as unassailable fact, then this new dawn in British and Irish politics, may set far too soon. And this will be to the detriment of everyone.
LIB is a bigot and a moron. I am not even going to address the absurdities in his arguments.
Undoubtedly the loss of civilian life is a tragedy. Loyalists, Republicans and the British state are all equally responsible. But to justify one death whilst disregarding another is a dangerous philosophy.
Martin McG is a democratically elected politican, the Good Friday agreement recognised the legitimate claims of both sides, the British security forces are currently under investigation for collusion, Republicans/Loyalists/Security forces killed civilians. Blood is on everyones hands, to consider the past a battle of good versus evil is infantile, thus highlighting a lack of mature critical analysis. Good men and women like Eamon McCann, Ivan Cooper, Gerry Fitt, John Hume, Benadette Devlin and far too many more to mention, tried to prevent what ultimately happened. A peaceful civil rights movement was crushed and the rest is a dark patch in our shared history. But if ilinformed unilateral absolutist views of history are touted as unassailable fact, then this new dawn in British and Irish politics, may set far too soon. And this will be to the detriment of everyone.
Churchill did not offer a united Ireland, it clearly wasnt his to offer. Self determination was always set to be the decisive issue.
Ireland was partitioned by the Government of Ireland Act 1920, the North never left the UK nevermind having rejoined.
There was minimal persecution protestants in the early days of the Free State. Large numbers of Protestants were very active in the formation of the new state. The claims of religious persecution are largely a fiction created by the BBC. The BBC were engaged in a campaign of propaganda to discredit the legitimacy of the Irish War of Independance. This is not republican discourse, rather it is the widely accepted position in historical thought.
Persecution of Catholics in the North was far more provident, it resulted from the insecure position of the state and the fact that many heavily armed protestant militias were in existence due to the previous home rule crisis i.e the UVF.
I am not a republican, so do not write this post off as biased propaganda. I am an Irish Nationalist but im trained in British and Irish Law.
Ireland was partitioned by the Government of Ireland Act 1920, the North never left the UK nevermind having rejoined.
There was minimal persecution protestants in the early days of the Free State. Large numbers of Protestants were very active in the formation of the new state. The claims of religious persecution are largely a fiction created by the BBC. The BBC were engaged in a campaign of propaganda to discredit the legitimacy of the Irish War of Independance. This is not republican discourse, rather it is the widely accepted position in historical thought.
Persecution of Catholics in the North was far more provident, it resulted from the insecure position of the state and the fact that many heavily armed protestant militias were in existence due to the previous home rule crisis i.e the UVF.
I am not a republican, so do not write this post off as biased propaganda. I am an Irish Nationalist but im trained in British and Irish Law.
Original post by GR3YFOXXX
Churchill did not offer a united Ireland, it clearly wasnt his to offer. Self determination was always set to be the decisive issue.
Ireland was partitioned by the Government of Ireland Act 1920, the North never left the UK nevermind having rejoined.
There was minimal persecution protestants in the early days of the Free State. Large numbers of Protestants were very active in the formation of the new state. The claims of religious persecution are largely a fiction created by the BBC. The BBC were engaged in a campaign of propaganda to discredit the legitimacy of the Irish War of Independance. This is not republican discourse, rather it is the widely accepted position in historical thought.
Persecution of Catholics in the North was far more provident, it resulted from the insecure position of the state and the fact that many heavily armed protestant militias were in existence due to the previous home rule crisis i.e the UVF.
I am not a republican, so do not write this post off as biased propaganda. I am an Irish Nationalist but im trained in British and Irish Law.
Ireland was partitioned by the Government of Ireland Act 1920, the North never left the UK nevermind having rejoined.
There was minimal persecution protestants in the early days of the Free State. Large numbers of Protestants were very active in the formation of the new state. The claims of religious persecution are largely a fiction created by the BBC. The BBC were engaged in a campaign of propaganda to discredit the legitimacy of the Irish War of Independance. This is not republican discourse, rather it is the widely accepted position in historical thought.
Persecution of Catholics in the North was far more provident, it resulted from the insecure position of the state and the fact that many heavily armed protestant militias were in existence due to the previous home rule crisis i.e the UVF.
I am not a republican, so do not write this post off as biased propaganda. I am an Irish Nationalist but im trained in British and Irish Law.
Where did you study law? Hoping to do so myself haha
Original post by GR3YFOXXX
There was minimal persecution protestants in the early days of the Free State. Large numbers of Protestants were very active in the formation of the new state. The claims of religious persecution are largely a fiction created by the BBC. The BBC were engaged in a campaign of propaganda to discredit the legitimacy of the Irish War of Independance. This is not republican discourse, rather it is the widely accepted position in historical thought.
There was minimal persecution protestants in the early days of the Free State. Large numbers of Protestants were very active in the formation of the new state. The claims of religious persecution are largely a fiction created by the BBC. The BBC were engaged in a campaign of propaganda to discredit the legitimacy of the Irish War of Independance. This is not republican discourse, rather it is the widely accepted position in historical thought.
If that's true, it must have been some time after the war, as the BBC (in the form we know today) didn't exist until several years after the war ended.
Original post by Psyk
If that's true, it must have been some time after the war, as the BBC (in the form we know today) didn't exist until several years after the war ended.
You're absolutely right, however at the time of the conflict the British press more generally were accursed of biased reporting. Reports focused on the deaths of protestant victims adding a religious character to the conflict. Undoubtedly many innocent people died in the war of independence but it was not a religious pogrom. Victims were often targeted for their connection to the British state and not as a result of their religious backgrounds, as many more catholics were murdered in a similar fashion.
Original post by nmccann
Where did you study law? Hoping to do so myself haha
Queens University, finished my LL.B in 2010 and my LL.M in 2011.
Original post by GR3YFOXXX
Churchill did not offer a united Ireland, it clearly wasnt his to offer. Self determination was always set to be the decisive issue.
I never said he did, I said he offered the opportunity of a united Ireland, when you're trying to win a war self determination of a disputed territory is probably not top of your priority list. He just wanted to keep the Republic sweet so they didn't cause him extra problems on his own doorstep like they had in WWI, but the Republic turned him down, whether the British government would have kept up their end of the bargain after the war we'll never know because the Republic turned him down on his offer.
Original post by GR3YFOXXX
Ireland was partitioned by the Government of Ireland Act 1920, the North never left the UK nevermind having rejoined.
On this you are quite simply wrong, when the Irish Free State was created in 1922 it included the whole of Ireland, there was a council of Ireland which oversaw the two respective parliaments, the parliament of Northern Ireland voted to withdraw from the Irish Free State and rejoin the United Kingdom.
Original post by James82
On this you are quite simply wrong, when the Irish Free State was created in 1922 it included the whole of Ireland, there was a council of Ireland which oversaw the two respective parliaments, the parliament of Northern Ireland voted to withdraw from the Irish Free State and rejoin the United Kingdom.
On this you are quite simply wrong, when the Irish Free State was created in 1922 it included the whole of Ireland, there was a council of Ireland which oversaw the two respective parliaments, the parliament of Northern Ireland voted to withdraw from the Irish Free State and rejoin the United Kingdom.
Wrong, I've studied the Government of Ireland Act 1920 in depth as part of my Law degree. The GoI Act 1920 impremented home rule in two seperate Irish jurisdictions, both of which were to remain part of the UK. It was never fully implemented in the south as the 1921 War of Independence broke out.
The Anglo-Irish treaty allowed Northern Ireland to opt out of the Free State before it was even legally created. Partion of Ireland pre-dates the free state.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by James82
I never said he did, I said he offered the opportunity of a united Ireland, when you're trying to win a war self determination of a disputed territory is probably not top of your priority list. He just wanted to keep the Republic sweet so they didn't cause him extra problems on his own doorstep like they had in WWI, but the Republic turned him down, whether the British government would have kept up their end of the bargain after the war we'll never know because the Republic turned him down on his offer.
The disruptive effects of the 1916 rising could hardly be seen to overshadow the massive effort on behalf of Irish soliders who fought for the Crown in the first world war.
Original post by James82
On this you are quite simply wrong, when the Irish Free State was created in 1922 it included the whole of Ireland, there was a council of Ireland which oversaw the two respective parliaments, the parliament of Northern Ireland voted to withdraw from the Irish Free State and rejoin the United Kingdom.
On this you are quite simply wrong, when the Irish Free State was created in 1922 it included the whole of Ireland, there was a council of Ireland which oversaw the two respective parliaments, the parliament of Northern Ireland voted to withdraw from the Irish Free State and rejoin the United Kingdom.
But it was Britain that decided that there should be two Irish parliaments, and it was Britain that decided where the border between the two jurisdictions would be. Northern Ireland may have voted to opt out of the Irish Free State, but Britain drew the borders specifically so that was pretty much guaranteed to happen.
Original post by GR3YFOXXX
Wrong, I've studied the Government of Ireland Act 1920 in depth as part of my Law degree. The GoI Act 1920 impremented home rule in two seperate Irish jurisdictions, both of which were to remain part of the UK. It was never fully implemented in the south as the 1921 War of Independence broke out.
The Anglo-Irish treaty allowed Northern Ireland to opt out of the Free State before it was even legally created. Partion of Ireland pre-dates the free state.
The Anglo-Irish treaty allowed Northern Ireland to opt out of the Free State before it was even legally created. Partion of Ireland pre-dates the free state.
You are plainly and simply wrong, not sure where you got your law degree, but they obviously don't specialise in Irish legal history.
Your first paragraph is correct, but the second one is completely wrong, the Anglo-Irish treaty created the Irish Free State which comprised of the whole island of Ireland, Northern Ireland had one month from the formation of the Irish Free State coming into effect to vote in parliament whether they want to leave and rejoin the united Kingdom. The Treaty came into effect on 6 December 1922, The Northern Irish Parliament voted to leave and made representations to the King of the United Kingdom on 8 December 1922, the King after consultations with parliament in Westminster granted Northern Ireland's readmission into the United Kingdom on 17 December 1922. For 11 days Northern Ireland was part of the Irish Free State.
To be fair I was wrong about the Anglo-Irish treaty, I actually only studied the GoI 1920. To be honest though it is a fairly tangential issue. The GoI created an artificial Unionist majority in the north, so it is hardly surprising that they excercised their right to rejoin the UK.
Original post by James82
For 11 days Northern Ireland was part of the Irish Free State.
That's extremely controversial since for that period "the powers of the Parliament and the Government of the Irish Free State shall not be exercisable as respects Northern Ireland, and the provisions of the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, shall, so far as they relate to Northern Ireland, remain of full force and effect". The 1920 Act includes, for example, the statement that "the supreme authority of the Parliament of the United Kingdom shall remain unaffected and undiminished over all persons, matters, and things in Ireland and every part thereof".
It was a legally absurd situation, and it's not exactly illuminating to suggest that Northern Ireland changed country during that period.
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