rape sentences: why are women still second class citizens in britain?

Original post by de_monies

True, but a man legally can only be raped by another man. Women legally can not rape. Not that I support the law of course, but legally a woman can not rape any one

Your point is?

Surely we should define the severity of the crime by its victims and victims of rape can be both genders.

What does it matter that women cannot legally rape anyone? Just because they can't we should ignore the male rape victims? Or what?

Reply 66

The_Internet

Original post by h-g-1

Your point is?

Surely we should define the severity of the crime by its victims and victims of rape can be both genders.

What does it matter that women cannot legally rape anyone? Just because they can't we should ignore the male rape victims? Or what?

I was agreeing with you when I said that. Notice that my first word was "true" I expressed that I disagree with the law which says that women can't be classified as rapists, so hence male rape victims don't get the help they need, purely because the law says they have been "sexually assaulted" as opposed to have being raped

Reply 67

h-g-1

Original post by de_monies

I was agreeing with you when I said that. Notice that my first word was "true" I expressed that I disagree with the law which says that women can't be classified as rapists, so hence male rape victims don't get the help they need, purely because the law says they have been "sexually assaulted" as opposed to have being raped

Aha! I read the word "true" and then the word "but" so I thought you were providing some sort of semi-justification.

Reply 68

moritzplatz

12

Original post by pinklego

the average sentence for rape in britain is just 7 years, but in reality because british justice essentially lies about the sentences it hands out 7 years actually means roughly 3 years.

now, i know some rape is hard to prove but let us just imagine we are talking about violent stranger on stranger rape which is beyond doubt. like this incident:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2224814/Woman-raped-alley-stranger-night-sexually-assaulted-AGAIN-passer-lay-helpless.html

3 and half years for something as serious as rape is just beyond belief in a so called civilised society. in backward nations rape is not even considered a crime and sometimes the rape victim is blamed -- well, 3 and half years for rape is not too far off that level of insanity. you may as well just say to women that they should not go out at night because we don't care about your safety.

before people say tough sentences do not deter crime may i ask what they think would happen to rape rates if the sentence was just 1 year on average? 1 day? legalised? -- of course there is correlation between sentences are deterrence.

already there are 85,000 rapes a year in britain.

the facts are rape is the most serious breach of a womans rights and society needs to start reflecting this in how it treats rapists -- at the moment rapists get a slap on the wrist for this life ruining act of savagery.

this is the big womens rights issue that is being neglected.

edit:
i say this is a womens rights issue because the overwhelming majority of rape victims are women -- a lot of males on this thread are getting very angry and defensive about this issue.

yes, men can get raped. yes, all crime has very weak sentences -- but i believe that if women focus on this issue and demand tougher sentences then they will help all crime victims if average sentences are raised.

maybe because too many women lie about rapes?

Reply 69

Theflyingbarney

15

Original post by pinklego

well, i am not a law student but and these weak sentences is something that interests me. i have never seen a violent or stranger on stranger rapist get anywhere near 20 years. if you have any examples or statistics i would love to see them.

Unfortunately I don't have any examples, as the whole 'studying law' element tends to focus on the controversial and borderline cases that help to define the edges of an offence, so by default these are the ones with the lowest sentences.

However, I have just found this:
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/s1_rape/
which is the Crown Prosecution Service's sentencing guidelines for rape. The sentences here extend up to 19 years and the bare minimum (i.e. least serious rape with most mitigating factors) is four years. Virtually all of the starting points for sentences are >10 years. I still agree with you that sentences in general are a bit too low, but evidently it's not for lack of trying.

well, i would say the justice system does lie about sentences -- it lies to deceive the public that they are being tougher than they are.
if someone is only going to serve, say, 5 years in jail then why say 10 years? it would be more honest to say minimum terms after conviction.

I wouldn't say this is lying - they do, 99% of the time, end up serving the time that is prescribed! The issue is a lot of people just hear '5 years' and are appalled when the convict is released three years from that date, when in fact the figure relates to five years in total, part of which they may have already served. Press hype and public misunderstanding is to blame here, not the legal system.

85,000 a year is from wiki. ( i suspect this is all rape not just stranger on stranger rape )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape#United_Kingdom

maybe as a law student you can do something about the appallingly low sentences.

Original post by kunoichi

Why?
Stranger down a dark alleyway is thankfully fairly rare, but then include the couples where a bf/husband has forced themselves on a partner and then thats not been spoken out about, b/c yknow they are together or something. Some people dont even realise they have been raped for a while 'because its my partner'. Marital rape may now be illegal but does still happen.
Include the drunken rapes too and assaults by family.

And i dont know if you are including male rape in that statistic but if you are, then consider prison rapes, gay couples which could have the problem i mentioned in the above paragraph etc etc.
Considering the amount of people in the country 250 rapes a day sounds low to me.

Just checked my textbook, which you would hope to be accurate, and this said that in 2009/10 there were just under 14,000 rapes of females and 1,200 rapes of males. That makes a figure which is a) well below what you've quoted and b) almost 10% male. Admittedly there may be more that were unreported, but to meet the 85,000 figure it would have to be something like five in six rape cases would have to go unreported, which I find hard to believe.

Reply 70

username931319

12

Charge for murder is too low. Homicide victims are almost exclusively Male. OMG IT'S SEXIST.

Reply 71

TKC

The problem with reporting on legal issues is that the full circumstances are often not published or known. Clear cut 'violent stranger rapes woman in a dark alley' cases are apparently rare. Despite the relative clarity of the law, rape cases are very difficult for everyone, not least the victim.

Also, keeping people locked up is expensive. Authorities are under political pressure to find ways of coping, so people are let out on certain conditions with supervision from the probation service.

From what I've seen of law so far, I wouldn't agree that women are treated unfairly generally. The conviction rate for rape is almost ten times what is commonly reported, and is marginally better than most crimes. There are failures that need to be corrected, no doubt, but there are many failures in justice, and rape, for better or worse, is just the most emotionally charged of them.

Reply 72

Original post by Theflyingbarney

Just checked my textbook, which you would hope to be accurate, and this said that in 2009/10 there were just under 14,000 rapes of females and 1,200 rapes of males. That makes a figure which is a) well below what you've quoted and b) almost 10% male. Admittedly there may be more that were unreported, but to meet the 85,000 figure it would have to be something like five in six rape cases would have to go unreported, which I find hard to believe.

I disagree, i think its way higher (unreported obvs, i believe the reported statistics) , but of course you're entitled to your own opinion.

Reply 73

Original post by moritzplatz

maybe because too many women lie about rapes?

statistics to back that up?

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 74

Michaelj

10

Original post by kunoichi

statistics to back that up?

That's not actually an opinion, women do lie about rape... :rolleyes:

And the guy quote statistics... You're not taking into account of prison rape which doesn't go into the equation. And unreported rapes... Men are a LOT less likely to report rape than a woman.

In America because of the prison system, men get raped more than women. Ontop of that 1 in 10 men get raped also... (outside prison)

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 75

Original post by Michaelj

That's not actually an opinion, women do lie about rape... :rolleyes:

im not saying they dont

The impression some guys give on tsr is that because some women have, every single women who ever reports must stand a huge chance of being a liar.

Its not unreasonable to consider this might have happened,but to openly say or suggest the majority of victims do though is wrong and undermines rape victims in general. I notice btw...that no guy on here ever considers that a male victim of rape might have lied, its always female victims accused.

So i am asking for the statistics of the numbers of women who lie about rape, not the fact that they do.

in fact

'Myth: Women often lie about rape or falsely accuse someone of rape.

Fact: Statistical studies indicate false reports make up two percent or less of the reported cases of sexual assault. This figure is approximately the same for other types of crimes. Only one out of 10 rapes are actually reported. Rapes by someone the victim knows are the least likely to be reported.'

source : http://rwu.edu/campus-life/health-counseling/counseling-center/sexual-assault/rape-myths-and-fac

A lot of people on tsr could do with reading that.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 76

Professor Oak

Original post by AntisthenesDogger

Charge for murder is too low. Homicide victims are almost exclusively Male. OMG IT'S SEXIST.

While I agree with this logic, and also with the general message on this thread: that men can get raped too, is there any chance that rape could be more of a concern for women's rights because of historical significance?

In war there are lots of accounts of victors to feel entitled to rape the female population of the conquered area. Also, (as we know) throughout history women were often treated as second class political citizens in terms of rights which is pretty relevant to rape. Given these kinds of historical trends, doesn't it kind of make sense that it's more of a women's rights issue than just a normal lack of decent punishment issue?

Comparing it to slavery: it probably wasn't only black people who were enslaved. But, it's the fact that slavery was propagated by white businessmen who viewed black people specifically as fair game that makes it relevant to black people's rights.

Reply 77

h-g-1

Original post by kunoichi

im not saying they dont

The impression some guys give on tsr is that because some women have, every single women who ever reports must stand a huge chance of being a liar.

Its not unreasonable to consider this might have happened,but to openly say or suggest the majority of victims do though is wrong and undermines rape victims in general. I notice btw...that no guy on here ever considers that a male victim of rape might have lied, its always female victims accused.

So i am asking for the statistics of the numbers of women who lie about rape, not the fact that they do.

in fact

'Myth: Women often lie about rape or falsely accuse someone of rape.

Fact: Statistical studies indicate false reports make up two percent or less of the reported cases of sexual assault. This figure is approximately the same for other types of crimes. Only one out of 10 rapes are actually reported. Rapes by someone the victim knows are the least likely to be reported.'

source : http://rwu.edu/campus-life/health-counseling/counseling-center/sexual-assault/rape-myths-and-fac

A lot of people on tsr could do with reading that.

I googled your question and came up with that article as well. I also read those statistics. However, I also tried to find the source of that statistic which unfortunately is not listed in that article. As someone who clearly wants evidence to back things up, I doubt you'd find that statistic "conclusive evidence" of anything.

Another thing, the poster did not even say anything to the effect of what you accused him of saying which is that the majority of women make up rape allegations. I read his post and all he said was "women do lie about rape". Your statistic (even then it doesn't say where from) backs up this claim. Even if it is less than 2%, it proves that it still happens. No one is saying the majority do. For those that do believe this (your "some guys on TSR"), I really doubt any statistics will change their mind as clearly they aren't intelligent enough to understand how the world works.

I think a better article would be this: http://www.theforensicexaminer.com/archive/spring09/15/

It doesnt offer any statistics casually thrown around to prove one point or another but rather objectively discusses how such statistics are hard to find and more often than not don't exist.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 78