Is Scottish independence a &#x27;good or bad&#x27; thing?

Original post by Midlander

My observation that 'Anglophobia is rife in Scotland' comes from personal experience having lived here for 4 years, as well as the experiences of the other English people I know up here. Just look at any Irn Bru advert-it caters to outdated stereotypes that must still be widely held in order for such adverts to get popular appeal.

When even unionist Scots tell me to be ashamed for murdering innocent Scottish peasants in the 14th century God knows what the nationalists think.

An extremely dubious extrapolation.

Based on the sort of comments, lies and distortions you post here, it is very likely that you get such comments IN RESPONSE TO YOUR OWN ARROGANT COMMENTS.

It seems that YOU don't like the Scots, even unionist ones, but want to keep the union for the outer glory of 'Great Britain'.

Or do you like the Scots so much you love to subsidise their 'free' tuition fees, prescriptions etc and hate anyone who call them scroungers?

Reply 1982

stemitchell91

Original post by CAElite

Mate it really isn't worth arguing your point on this forum at all. Its full of English tory voters as soon as anything left wing or against the views of Mr Cameron is brought up it is just shouted down by the noisy majority.

If you actually care to read some of the thread, you might realise that of the people arguing with Maths Tutor, about half of us are Scottish. I personally have voted for the SNP at every chance I was given since turning 18, that will change now of course, but still I'm hardly an "English Tory voter" and yet I still think he's talking rubbish.

Original post by CAElite

But yeah as for the OP I think it will be a great thing for my country to be able to decide its own destiny and finances well still keeping a strong social (not political bond) to our English, Welsh and Irish neighbours. There may be uncertainty and instability in the initial transition period of independence and probably a few fierce legal battles in the EU courts over a number of issues (Scottish / English north sea border is one thing, there are many others though) but eventually i believe it will settle with Scotland being in a far better position than it once was.

Would you mind expanding a bit on why you think Scotland will benefit so much? It would be nice to hear from someone other than Maths Tutor. How is it that you think the rest of the UK will want to maintain a strong social bond with us, after we essentially declare that we're too good for them and should be on our own?

Reply 1983

Original post by CAElite

Mate it really isn't worth arguing your point on this forum at all. Its full of English tory voters as soon as anything left wing or against the views of Mr Cameron is brought up it is just shouted down by the noisy majority.

But yeah as for the OP I think it will be a great thing for my country to be able to decide its own destiny and finances well still keeping a strong social (not political bond) to our English, Welsh and Irish neighbours. There may be uncertainty and instability in the initial transition period of independence and probably a few fierce legal battles in the EU courts over a number of issues (Scottish / English north sea border is one thing, there are many others though) but eventually i believe it will settle with Scotland being in a far better position than it once was.

Thanks pal. Yes, you are right. Wait for the hounds to descend on you very soon!

I am sure all this is driving more and more Scots into the YES camp.

I am 100% sure that an independent Scotland will result in a much fairer and just society. It is only the vested interests who will do their damnest to prevent independence, despite claiming that Scotland is subsidised by England.

Reply 1984

Original post by stemitchell91

It would be nice to hear from someone other than Maths Tutor.

The hounds are looking for fresh blood. Haven't had any new blood for quite a while!

Reply 1985

stemitchell91

Indeed, I personally can't wait to tear out CAElite's throat with my teeth, and then dine on his warm flesh.

Reply 1986

Original post by stemitchell91

Any reasonable person could understand that the phrase "stuck at 30% for the last 30 years" is quite interchangeable with the phrase "has been averaging 30% without any significant variations for the last 30 years". Let it go.

Original post by stemitchell91

I personally have voted for the SNP at every chance I was given since turning 18, that will change now of course, but still I'm hardly an "English Tory voter" and yet I still think he's talking rubbish.

"Any reasonable person could understand" that the SNP's main reason for existence has always been Scottish Independence. Anyone turning 18 and voting for the SNP would not only be very much aware of the SNP's main policy, but would also believe in it.

So either 'Bitter Together' have converted you with their scaremongering, or you are lying.

Reply 1987

Original post by Maths Tutor

One would expect better literacy from posters on The Student Room, especially from 'Mature Students'.

Anyway the 30% figure is being used to distort the true picture.

Considering that there is only 1 against the World on a discussion about 'Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing?', how come the anti-Independence campaign can barely manage 50% support having pointed out countless positive reasons for staying in the union?

They don't have to proove anything. The Onus is on Mr Salmond and his merry band of supporters.

The problem is they keep getting caught out with fact and reality

Reply 1988

stemitchell91

Original post by Maths Tutor

"Any reasonable person could understand" that the SNP's main reason for existence has always been Scottish Independence. Anyone turning 18 and voting for the SNP would not only be very much aware of the SNP's main policy, but would also believe in it.

So either 'Bitter Together' have converted you with their scaremongering, or you are lying.

Not being a complete idiot, I did indeed understand that the SNP's reason for existing was independence, and at the time I agreed with the idea. Then when I actually started to think about it and do some research on the matter, I realised what a bad idea it was.

Although I do like how the only possible options are that I was terrified by the bogeyman, or I'm a liar.

Reply 1989

Original post by Maths Tutor

"Any reasonable person could understand" that the SNP's main reason for existence has always been Scottish Independence. Anyone turning 18 and voting for the SNP would not only be very much aware of the SNP'eperatingSs main policy, but would also believe in it

So either 'Bitter Together' have converted you with their scaremongering, or you are lying.

That's not quite strictly true is it. I know many people who voted SNP who have no interest in seperating. I mean with 50% of the vote and only about 30% supporting seperation that leaves us with only two options.

1) Every single one of the 30% who supported seperation in the electorate actually went out and voted for the SNP as we had a 50% turnout.

2) People are voting SNP as they like the policy of free prescriptions and free university education, so a lot of people who voted for them don't actually supprt the end game.

You're also forgetting that the SNP didn't do too well at the Westminster elections.

We've gone over this. Raising concern over real issues such as pension liabilities, the economy, healthcare isn't really scaremongering is it?

Next thing you'll be doing is saying that I'm Anti Scottish and 'talking Scotland Down' because I don't believe in a minority cause.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 1990

Original post by Maths Tutor

The hounds are looking for fresh blood. Haven't had any new blood for quite a while!

I'd say that seeing as you're the only one on here now promoting seperation you might consider yourself as a minority.
(Cows for Sale has given up and the two 16 year old SNP youth activists who were promoting 'we'll get free telly' have gone.)

Ever thought you're in a minority.

Incidentally. What do you do for a living as you always appear at the same time each night. Are you a glass collector or something?

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 1991

Original post by Maths Tutor

Apart from mine, how many pro-independence comments have there been on this thread DURING THE PAST WEEK and how many anti-independence?

Apart from me almost all other pro-independence posters HAVE BEEN HOUNDED OUT OF THIS THREAD by the likes of you.

It is myself against your united world so doesn't matter which one of you I quote.

They haven't been hounded off. They just failed to put a reasonable debate forward.

Reply 1992

CAElite

19

-double post-
-snip-

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 1993

CAElite

19

Original post by stemitchell91

If you actually care to read some of the thread, you might realise that of the people arguing with Maths Tutor, about half of us are Scottish. I personally have voted for the SNP at every chance I was given since turning 18, that will change now of course, but still I'm hardly an "English Tory voter" and yet I still think he's talking rubbish.

Would you mind expanding a bit on why you think Scotland will benefit so much? It would be nice to hear from someone other than Maths Tutor. How is it that you think the rest of the UK will want to maintain a strong social bond with us, after we essentially declare that we're too good for them and should be on our own?

Well I apologise for the stereotype. To be honest i got 3 pages in at the start of this thread and just gave up and skipped to the end. The majority of what i saw seemed to follow that stereotype.

There are many positive reasons for independence ranging from financial (not just north sea oil) we have a massive chemical and green energy in this country and alone we are producing 125% of our power requirements aswell as a higher average income per capita than the rest of the UK. There are also many political reasons under our own government we are far less likely to be under the rule of another Thatcher or Blair or Cameron. Leaders who couldnt give a rats arse about our country or the views of its people.

And to be honest the "we are abandoning England" viewpoint for anti-independence is just silly. Us leaving will reduce the total rUK budget by ~9.8% however it will reduce the rUKs spending by ~8.9% meaning a total loss of 0.9% of the budget, these numbers im citing are circa 2010 but i think they are still valid.

But I do understand your voting for SNP without support of independence even if that is the parties main mandate since they are one of three well known parties that are actually based in Scotland (SNP, SSP & Scottish Greens) "Scottish" labour/tories/libdems are all based in northern England and the majority of MSPs fielded by them are the Westminster rejects who couldn't secure a seat down south. And hell if people like you continue to vote for SNP it just increases the chance of us getting independence in future regardless of if we fail in 2014.

But just remember this, the Scottish people voted yes for independence in 1979 and got nothing, we voted yes in 1999 and got our Scottish Parlament, we vote yes in 2014 and we get everything.

Original post by stemitchell91

Indeed, I personally can't wait to tear out CAElite's throat with my teeth, and then dine on his warm flesh.

Oh lord

Reply 1994

Original post by Maths Tutor

Thanks pal. Yes, you are right. Wait for the hounds to descend on you very soon!

I am sure all this is driving more and more Scots into the YES camp.

I am 100% sure that an independent Scotland will result in a much fairer and just society. It is only the vested interests who will do their damnest to prevent independence, despite claiming that Scotland is subsidised by England.

Polls would suggest differently. Infact, I would argue that the Yes Campaigns continual bombarding of chat rooms, comments boards etc is having the opposite effect than it was anticiapted. It has after all got me online.

Nobody is claiming Scotland is subsidised by England, but it can't be disputed that we get a higher per capita spend from central government. I'm probably subsidising you.

Infact, as I keep pointing out, even though the SNP like to target London and the South East, it's actually the North of England, Wales and Northern Ireland that are being subsidised. You know the ones you want to have a social union with, as well as a fiscal union, but no political union.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 1995

Thriftworks

I think we are focusing on the economical side of the debate too much, I personally am not Scottish, I live in London but my mum is from Glasgow(Dad is from Hong Kong). Maybe the Scottish people genuinely want a fully serperate identity from british (outside scotland) people as they might define as scottish not british.

Reply 1996

CAElite

19

Original post by Thriftworks

I think we are focusing on the economical side of the debate too much, I personally am not Scottish, I live in London but my mum is from Glasgow(Dad is from Hong Kong). Maybe the Scottish people genuinely want a fully serperate identity from british (outside scotland) people as they might define as scottish not british.

Dont really personally know anybody who thinks like that although i have heard of them. This is a mostly English viewpoint of how Scottish nationalists think. Here are reasons that i know of that people (including myself) are voting yes for:

Yes for a more financially better off Scotland
Yes for control of our own resources
Yes for control of our own external affairs and foreign policy
Yes to get the nuclear filth removed from our country
Yes to be controled by a government who we actually voted for

Reply 1997

Thriftworks

The problem is large parts of government revenue would be based on the export of natural resources, the revenue is likely to not grow significantly in the short run and decline in the long run. So eventually unless the scottish economy changes radically, serious budget deficits will run national debt through the roof.

Reply 1998

Original post by CAElite

Dont really personally know anybody who thinks like that although i have heard of them. This is a mostly English viewpoint of how Scottish nationalists think. Here are reasons that i know of that people (including myself) are voting yes for:

Yes for a more financially better off Scotland.

We've got no currency. And the SNP have even said privatley we wont be finacially better off.
http://b.3cdn.net/better/c1d14076ee08022eec_u9m6vd74f.pdf

Yes for control of our own resources. Lets hope the rUK don't say that about the BoE. Do some digging on EU energy policy etc.

Yes for control of our own external affairs and foreign policy.

I'm going to assume that you're thinking of things like Iraq and Afghanistan with that one. You may want to do a little bit of digging on which countries we aspire to be like and their involvements in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya. (I'll give you a hint. Sweden, Norway, Icleand and Denmark)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-National_Force-Iraq
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Security_Assistance_Force
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya

And lets remember that it was Blair and Brown and a high disproportionate number of Scots in the Cabinet that got us into Iraq and Afghanistan. So saying that we'll have control over our foreign poicy is a straw man argument as we have no guarantee that things like that won't happen again, and as we do get to vote in the general elections, we do actually have control over or foreign policy.

Yes to get the nuclear filth removed from our country.

So motivated are the people of Scotland that we had a whole 250 protest at Faslane recently. And a lot of those were from other parts of the UK. It's giving me the inpression that Trident isn't as big a concern for people as some politicians make it to out to be.

Yes to be controled by a government who we actually voted for

We have got a Government we voted for. Infact we've got MPs we voted for in cabinet. OK, we didn't get a Labour Government this time round, but we may get one in 2015 as that's what the people of Scotland voted for. I didn't vote for the SNP, but I've got stuck with a government I didn't vote for at Holyrood for the next few years. That's called democracy.

See above in Bold as I don't know how to do multi quote.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 1999