President Obama authorises air-strikes on Islamist barbarians

Scroll to see replies

The rockets are a relatively new thing. Israel was describing displaced Palestinians as terrorists long before that and long ago seeking to equate any new terrorist grouping in the Arab world with the Palestinian cause. It's all old hat to the Tel Aviv propaganda mill. That's why they leapt into action the day after 9/11 to claim that the struggle against Al Qaeda was the same as theirs against the PLA.

New thing or not what does it matter. None of this 'history' is relevant to the fact Hamas is using rockets despite Israel being forced to resist and killing civilians (which they hide behind).

Reply 101

MostUncivilised

Original post by Fullofsurprises

Can you please stop inferring in a derogatory manner that anyone who has even a mild criticism of Israel is some kind of automatic ally of the worst of extremist Islamism?

What on earth are you talking about? We weren't even talking about Israel, and the fact you have imported Israel into this discussion of Sykes-Picot is... revealing.

You are being very selective. You've chosen the modern radical Islamist idea (or rather, the Muslim Brotherhood idea, or their interpretation of Pan-Arabism) and made it sound as though that's also what critics of Sykes-Picot would have wanted

I'm sorry, the Greater Syria concept is not a "modern radical Islamist idea", though it is an idea to which modern radical Islamists subscribe. It is something the Arabs were saying they wanted from the British Empire when they were fighting for Lawrence of Arabia, and many secular nationalist parties in the Arab world have subscribed to Pan-Arabic or Greater Syriac ideologies.

I was thinking of the way arbitrary lines on maps were drawn up for the Mandates and the way the British and French imposed kings on those invented territories and ignored local history, racial and cultural divisions

Borders in that area of the world are by definition going to be arbitrary. What are you suggesting? Are you suggesting every little ethno-religious area becomes a statelet like the Holy Roman Empire? Or are you suggesting a Greater Syria? If you're saying something in between, then that's basically Sykes-Picot and it is incumbent on you to explain precisely how you would have done it differently

Reply 102

MostUncivilised

Original post by Fullofsurprises

Well, officially the unity government of 2014 are in charge of Gaza

That's a debateable proposition. Given that Palestinian law required elections every four years, and there hasn't been a legislative election since 2006, any purported legislative activity or exercise of authority on their part would be ultra vires

Reply 103

MostUncivilised

Original post by tsr1269

Well, the plan was to hold elections 6 months after the Unity Agreement (24 April 2014) between HAMAS and Fatah but I guess that's dead as a duck following Israel's little war in Gaza.

Indeed. Any excuse not to actually hold the election that should have occurred in 2010 according to Palestinian law. There's always an excuse to delay submitting to the people's choice.

Pray tell, what was their excuse for not holding the election in 2010?

Reply 104

tsr1269

Original post by felamaslen

That would have represented a departure from their tradition of executing opponents and lynching dissidents.

I thought, you of all people, would like to see elections take place given your perchance towards observing democracy.

Besides, Hamas started this war, so you make no sense.

I don't think so but maybe I have read something wrong...

Reply 105

felamaslen

Original post by Fullofsurprises

Well, since Israel did everything possible to thwart their democracy and destroy their parliament, then yes, I daresay it is a bit remote for them right now.

The official PLA have long since renounced the end of Israel as an aim. It's a cheap, lying slur to accuse them of still supporting it. Hamas were willing to, but the leaders in question were mostly killed by Israel, which made it harder. :rolleyes:

The Deputy Leader of Likud has recently publicly advertised what appears to be a desire to commit genocide on the Palestinians more or less, so I wonder if this is a classic case of pots and kettles.

Actions speak louder than words, and if Israel wanted to exterminate the Palestinians they would have done so by now (and lost all support among decent people).

Neither Hamas nor the PLO or Fatah are or were ever intending on setting up a democratic state or living in peace with Israel. If they were, I would support them. From 1947 onwards the goal was to reject Israel and set up a standard tyranny like Jordan and Syria (hence no protest at the Jordanian occupation of the West Bank before 1967, or the Ottoman empire). The problem is that Israel represents an alternative, free system of governance that is rejected by the Palestinian movements for statehood. Who even remembers the "opposition" to Arafat for example, let alone expected him to hold an election? As I say, democracy is a foreign language, just like in Syria and Jordan and Egypt.

Reply 106

tsr1269

Original post by MostUncivilised

Security situation resulting from the breakdown of the HAMAS-Fatah government which stemmed from the attempted coup by Fatah, either with the tacit approval or at the instigation of the US/Israeli's.

Now that they had reconciled somewhat, the plan was to hold elections 6 months from April 2014 but the Israeli's have scuppered that plan.

Reply 107

felamaslen

Original post by tsr1269

I thought, you of all people, would like to see elections take place given your perchance towards observing democracy.

I would love to see regular elections take place, but that is impossible with Hamas in power. They don't understand what democracy is, let alone believe in it.

I don't think so but maybe I have read something wrong...

Hamas fire rockets, Israel responds with air strikes. No rockets, no air strikes, no war.

Reply 108

tsr1269

Original post by felamaslen

I would love to see regular elections take place, but that is impossible with Hamas in power. They don't understand what democracy is, let alone believe in it.

Then why do they take part in it if they don't know and don't believe in it?

Hamas fire rockets, Israel responds with air strikes. No rockets, no air strikes, no war.

Except HAMAS didn't fire any rockets since the ceasefire of 2012 but as always, I will be "corrected" by some erroneous information on your part...

Reply 109

Fullofsurprises

Original post by MostUncivilised

I assume you're not against Israel, which surely is a pretty classic example of an 'ethno-religious area being a statelet' isn't it? :rolleyes:

One can think Sykes-Picot was high handed imperialism without at the same time favouring some kind of grand pan-Arab super state. I do think the world is increasingly heading towards smaller subdivisions as old empires and states collapse on their own contradictions and the traditional racial and cultural groups aspire for more. Isn't that what's also increasingly happening right here in Europe?

Reply 110

felamaslen

Original post by tsr1269

Then why do they take part in it if they don't know and don't believe in it?

They don't. No elections since 2006. No free society. No opposition.

Except HAMAS didn't fire any rockets since the ceasefire of 2012 but as always, I will be "corrected" by some erroneous information on your part...

Nonsense. They and other militants constantly fire rockets.

Reply 111

QuantumSuicide

No blockade. No rockets. No air strikes. No war.

:smile:

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 112

tsr1269

Original post by felamaslen

They don't. No elections since 2006. No free society. No opposition.

Why is there no opposition and why did they enter into agreement to hold elections within 6 months from April 2014?

Nonsense. They and other militants constantly fire rockets.

I suppose you have proof that HAMAS broke the 2012 ceasefire...

Reply 113

GnomeMage

500 pounds of democracy

Reply 114

MostUncivilised

Original post by tsr1269

Except HAMAS didn't fire any rockets since the ceasefire of 2012 but as always, I will be "corrected" by some erroneous information on your part...

You're claiming Hamas didn't fire any rockets on 29TH JUNE and every day between then and the start of Protective Edge on 8TH JULY?

Reply 115

Fullofsurprises

Original post by GnomeMage

500 pounds of democracy

Funny poster, but it doesn't relate to the truth about this situation in any way. You are aware that ISIS are busy trying to massacre (in fact, succeeding in massacring according to the latest accounts) an entire people? If the US stops at least some of that, they should have the votes of everyone.

Reply 116

tsr1269

Original post by MostUncivilised

You're claiming Hamas didn't fire any rockets on 29TH JUNE and every day between then and the start of Protective Edge on 8TH JULY?

Are you able and willing to "correct" my view or not?

Reply 117

MostUncivilised

Original post by tsr1269

Are you able and willing to "correct" my view or not?

I've already corrected it. There were rockets fired by Hamas from the last days of June. That was 8 days before Operation Protective Edge started.

All throughout June, Islamist militants in Gaza were firing rockets at Israel (the murdered boys bodies were found on 30th June). On 29th June, Israel conducted an air strike against a rocket crew who were setting up to fire, and one Hamas operative was killed. The next day, Hamas responded itself by firing rockets into Israel, and continued to do so up until 6th July. On 6th July, the IDF responded to the rocket bombardment by Hamas and other groups by launching an airstrike that liquidated seven Hamas terrorists.

On 7th July, Hamas increased the number of rockets it fired from about 15 a day in the early days of July to 80 on that day. On 8th July, they fired over 150 rockets. On that day, and in response to the massive increase in rocket fire, Israel commenced Operation Protective Edge.

Those are the facts. You might not like them, but you can't run away from them

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 118

MostUncivilised

Original post by GnomeMage

You're absolutely right, far better to allow the 40,000 Yezidi who have fled to Mt Sinjar and are surrounded and facing almost certain death if they don't get help, to die. That's definitely the moral response to this situation.