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Some basic German questions...

How do you determine how the infinitive will turn out when it is combined with the different pronouns? Is there like a general rule about it? Example, my German teacher told me that many infinitives, when combined with er/sie/es will have a -t ending, and this goes the same to ihr.

When an infinitive combines with wir and sie, it remains the same. I'm really confused about all these rules and general guide, can someone clarify me about this? :confused:

And also, I don't understand noun declensions, nominative, accusative, dative, genitive... Huh? Can someone explain to me on their usage please?

Thanks guys :biggrin: !

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Reply 1
carefree_sloth
How do you determine how the infinitive will turn out when it is combined with the different pronouns? Is there like a general rule about it? Example, my German teacher told me that many infinitives, when combined with er/sie/es will have a -t ending, and this goes the same to ihr.

When an infinitive combines with wir and sie, it remains the same. I'm really confused about all these rules and general guide, can someone clarify me about this? :confused:

And also, I don't understand noun declensions, nominative, accusative, dative, genitive... Huh? Can someone explain to me on their usage please?

Thanks guys :biggrin: !


Don't worry about declensions of verbs, and the Nominative, Accusative, Dative and Genitive because many university students don't get it - even after their year abroad. Also, I don't quite understand what you're trying to say in your first paragraph, so sorry...I can't help you.:frown:
Reply 2
carefree_sloth
How do you determine how the infinitive will turn out when it is combined with the different pronouns? Is there like a general rule about it? Example, my German teacher told me that many infinitives, when combined with er/sie/es will have a -t ending, and this goes the same to ihr.

When an infinitive combines with wir and sie, it remains the same. I'm really confused about all these rules and general guide, can someone clarify me about this? :confused:

And also, I don't understand noun declensions, nominative, accusative, dative, genitive... Huh? Can someone explain to me on their usage please?

Thanks guys :biggrin: !


Are you asking about verb conjugation forms? If so, then using the verb spielen:

Ich spiele
Du spielst
er/sie/es spielt
wir spielen
ihr spielt
sie spielen
(also Sie spielen for formal 2nd person)

In general, take off the -en of the inifinitive (leaves you the stem of the verb, in this case spiel). Then add on the following endings:

ich: -e
du: -st
er: -t
wir: -en
ihr: -t
sie: -en

Sometimes, the stem of the verb may change (e.g. the inifinitive fahren changes to ich fahre, then er färht for the 3rd person). In other irregular verbs the forms are different altogether (haben and sein).

---

The nom, acc, dat and gen are all cases. The nominative case is used for the subject of the sentence, e.g. 'The dog' in "The dog eats the apple". The definite article would then be der (m), die (f), das (n) or die (pl).

The accusative case is used for the direct object of the sentence, in the above case, 'The apple'. The definite article will then be den (m), die (f), das (n) or die (pl) - note only the masculine changes. So the sentence above will read "Der Hund isst den Apfel". The accusative case is also used in front of some prepositions, e.g. um, ohne, durch, entlang.

The dative case is used for the indirect object and the definite articles take the form dem (m), der (f), dem (n) and der (pl). e.g. if you have the sentence "The boy gives the dog a letter", 'The boy' is the subject so takes the nominative case; 'a letter' is the direct object so will take the accusative case; and 'the girl' is the indirect object (something is done TO someone if you like), so will take the dative case. So the above sentence will be "Der Junge gibt dem Hund einen Brief". The dative case is also used in front of most prepositions (e.g. mit, nach, seit, von, zu), so that you get sentences like "Ich fahre mit dem Auto".

The genetive case is used when you want to say 'of' something, and the definite articles change to des (m), der (f), des (n) and den (pl). e.g. "That is the cat of the girl" would be "Das ist die Katze des Mädchens". The genetive is also used after certain prepositions (e.g. trotz, statt).

That was a very brief outline of cases and conjugations - if you are confused, it is really better to be taught it properly in lessons/out of grammar books. And it was probably all wrong anyway - generalebriety or someone will come and give a better explanation :p:
Reply 3
It depends what tense you are using as how to how the verb (infinitive) is conjugated.

Example:

Present tense:

spielen (regular verb)

ich spiele
du spielst
er/sie/es/man spielt
wir spielen
ihr spielt
Sie/sie spielen

That's your basic pattern for verb conjugation but obv there are irregularities and it changes with tense.

I'm not sure that explaining the other things will be helpful to you at this stage, as you seem fairly new to German.

Hope that's what you were asking anyway, the original question was a little confusing.
Reply 4
Haha, yeah, what excalibur said :wink:
Reply 5
Fleece
Haha, yeah, what excalibur said :wink:


lol we even used exactly the same verb as an example :p:
Excalibur
generalebriety or someone will come and give a better explanation :p:
?! :p:

I thought it was a very good reply except for your typo of fährt. :p: Does carefree_sloth know what the terms "direct object" and "indirect object" mean, though?

For reference, if not:

The subject is the person or thing carrying out the action of the verb. I like food, mice are scary, we did our homework, John ate the pie, trust is important, blue is a nice colour, this smiley --> ":smile:" <-- is my favourite, morals are subjective.

A "direct" object is one that is the "victim" of the action of the verb. I hit him, she gave the dog away (cf. indirect version), I broke the glass, we saw the Eiffel Tower, he likes sausages, they know no happiness, I like to eat goblins.
(Note that if a noun comes after the verbs "to be", "to become", "to remain" etc., it's probably the subject. Cars become scrap metal, he remained a shocked man, I am an idiot.)

An "indirect" object is one that is "receiving" the action of the verb, generally used with verbs of giving or taking away. She gave the dog the bone (cf. direct version. In this version she gave the bone to the dog, in that version she gave the dog away), I took the newspaper away from him, give me a pizza.



However, this is only a reference. I agree with Fleece, you seem very new to German, and trying to force all this information into your head is probably a bad idea. Go and find a grammar book or a grammar website, and if you can, print off this thread (or at least Excalibur's post, with mine if you need it), if you want to learn the uses of the various cases (nominative, accusative, etc.). The question about the endings of the present tense was a good one though. :smile:

It interests me, actually, that some slightly old German terms for nominative, etc. are: der Werfall, der Wenfall, der Wemfall, der Wesfall, meaning respectively: the case asking "who (did it)?", the case asking "whom (was that done to)?", the case asking "to whom (was that given)?", the case asking "whose?". That's a nice way to think about it. :smile: This is quite a good starting point for explaining the differences, if a little grammar-heavy. Try not to go through learning all the tables if you're new, it'll only confuse you, but certainly read about the usage if you're interested. :smile:
Reply 7
generalebriety
It interests me, actually, that some slightly old German terms for nominative, etc. are: der Werfall, der Wenfall, der Wemfall, der Wesfall, meaning respectively: the case asking "who (did it)?", the case asking "whom (was that done to)?", the case asking "to whom (was that given)?", the case asking "whose?". That's a nice way to think about it. :smile: This is quite a good starting point for explaining the differences, if a little grammar-heavy. Try not to go through learning all the tables if you're new, it'll only confuse you, but certainly read about the usage if you're interested. :smile:

Those aren't really old terms, they're the terms they teach you at primary school.:smile: We also learnt a nice little poem (by Christian Morgenstern in case anyone's interested):
Der Werwolf

Ein Werwolf eines Nachts entwich
von Weib und Kind und sich begab
an eines Dorfschullehrers Grab
und bat ihn: „Bitte, beuge mich!“
Der Dorfschulmeister stieg hinauf
auf seines Blechschilds Messingknauf
und sprach zum Wolf, der seine Pfoten
geduldig kreuzte vor dem Toten:
„Der Werwolf“ - sprach der gute Mann,
„des Weswolfs, Genitiv sodann,
dem Wemwolf, Dativ, wie man’s nennt,
den Wenwolf - damit hat’s ein End’.“
Dem Werwolf schmeichelten die Fälle,
er rollte seine Augenbälle.
Indessen, bat er, füge doch
zur Einzahl auch die Mehrzahl noch!
Der Dorfschulmeister aber mußte
gestehn, daß er von ihr nichts wußte,
Zwar Wölfe gäb’s in großer Schar,
doch „Wer“ gäb’s nur im Singular.
Der Wolf erhob sich tränenblind -
er hatte ja doch Weib und Kind!!
Doch da er kein Gelehrter eben,
so schied er dankend und ergeben.


One more thing, though:
the case asking "whom (was that done to)?", the case asking "to whom (was that given)?"

That doesn't sound quite right to me. Those two are definitely both dative in German - and also in English, I think, because the first example isn't actually a direct object. Something like "Who (did the madman kill)?" would be a direct object.
hobnob
That doesn't sound quite right to me. Those two are definitely both dative in German - and also in English, I think, because the first example isn't actually a direct object. Something like "Who (did the madman kill)?" would be a direct object.

It's hard to express it in English... I couldn't really say "Whom was it done?". :p: Hence the copious examples. It's a very hard concept to grasp because it's so hard to explain - once you fully understand it, the tendency is to take explanations like "direct object" for granted, not realising that that term means nothing to someone who doesn't fully get it.

Shall read the poem though, looks interesting. :smile:
Reply 9
Go ahead.:biggrin: I think you'll like Morgenstern's poetry: clever, funny and not as easy as it seems. Another very well-known poem by him is
Das aesthetische Wiesel:

Ein Wiesel
saß auf einem Kiesel
inmitten Bachgeriesel.
Wißt ihr weshalb?
Das Mondkalb
verriet es mir im Stillen:
das raffinier-
te Tier
tat's um des Reimes willen.

:biggrin:
Reply 10
I've got another basic Q.. lemme see if I can explain it..

Let's say I wanna say "I must do the university application" or whatever

so you have "Ich muss (der/die/das) .... machen"

now you have the words [die] Universität (University) [der] Antrag (Application)

- and these are both different genders (Die and Der]

SO: When you have two different genders what do you use for the Der/Die/Das after the "Ich muss" ?

Ich muss die Universität Antrag machen
Ich muss der Universität Antrag machen

or do you make Universität Antrag into one word and use the gender of the last (or first) word ??

*ahem* :redface:
tymbnuip
I've got another basic Q.. lemme see if I can explain it..

Let's say I wanna say "I must do the university application" or whatever

so you have "Ich muss (der/die/das) .... machen"

now you have the words [die] Universität (University) [der] Antrag (Application)

- and these are both different genders (Die and Der]

SO: When you have two different genders what do you use for the Der/Die/Das after the "Ich muss" ?

Ich muss die Universität Antrag machen
Ich muss der Universität Antrag machen

or do you make Universität Antrag into one word and use the gender of the last (or first) word ??

*ahem* :redface:

Composite nouns are always written as one word - so, Universitätsantrag (the -s- is in the middle because, well, that's just what happens with the word "Universität" :biggrin: that comes with experience, or you can look up the "combining form" in a good dictionary) - and always take the gender of the last word. So, der Universitätsantrag. But, it's accusative here, of course, because it's the direct object (see explanations above) - ich muss den Universitätsantrag machen.

However, it sounds (to me) more German to say "ich muss mich um einen Universitätsplatz bewerben" (sich bewerben um = to apply for, der Platz = place). That's irrelevant to your question though. Composite nouns are written as one word and take the gender of the final noun. :smile:
Reply 12
Oder vielleicht

...sich um einen Studienplatz bewerben.
Fleece
Oder vielleicht

...sich um einen Studienplatz bewerben.

Ja, klingt besser. :p:

:redface:
Yep, that's it! The verb conjugation form! Yeah, I forgot the conjugation word. Thanks Excalibur and Fleece! :biggrin: :adore:

My teacher was trying to teach me about the noun declensions just yesterday, and I was pretty blur throughout her whole explanation! All I know is there are 4 cases, and to guide me in knowing what sort of cases to use, you have to ask yourself a few questions like what etc. :confused: .

generalebriety
It interests me, actually, that some slightly old German terms for nominative, etc. are: der Werfall, der Wenfall, der Wemfall, der Wesfall, meaning respectively: the case asking "who (did it)?", the case asking "whom (was that done to)?", the case asking "to whom (was that given)?", the case asking "whose?". That's a nice way to think about it.

Exactly, that's what she advised me.

Excalibur
The nom, acc, dat and gen are all cases. The nominative case is used for the subject of the sentence, e.g. 'The dog' in "The dog eats the apple". The definite article would then be der (m), die (f), das (n) or die (pl).

The accusative case is used for the direct object of the sentence, in the above case, 'The apple'. The definite article will then be den (m), die (f), das (n) or die (pl) - note only the masculine changes. So the sentence above will read "Der Hund isst den Apfel". The accusative case is also used in front of some prepositions, e.g. um, ohne, durch, entlang.

The dative case is used for the indirect object and the definite articles take the form dem (m), der (f), dem (n) and der (pl). e.g. if you have the sentence "The boy gives the dog a letter", 'The boy' is the subject so takes the nominative case; 'a letter' is the direct object so will take the accusative case; and 'the girl' is the indirect object (something is done TO someone if you like), so will take the dative case. So the above sentence will be "Der Junge gibt dem Hund einen Brief". The dative case is also used in front of most prepositions (e.g. mit, nach, seit, von, zu), so that you get sentences like "Ich fahre mit dem Auto".

The genetive case is used when you want to say 'of' something, and the definite articles change to des (m), der (f), des (n) and den (pl). e.g. "That is the cat of the girl" would be "Das ist die Katze des Mädchens". The genetive is also used after certain prepositions (e.g. trotz, statt).

That was a very brief outline of cases and conjugations - if you are confused, it is really better to be taught it properly in lessons/out of grammar books. And it was probably all wrong anyway - generalebriety or someone will come and give a better explanation

Yep, my teacher is going to teach me about it again, but I thought I ask here to get at least some basic ideas about it, so that at least I can understand my teacher more. :biggrin: Thanks, that's really going to help me. I'm so printing out this thread and take my time to read through them properly a couple more times.

generalebriety
Does carefree_sloth know what the terms "direct object" and "indirect object" mean, though?

I do have a brief idea, it exists in Malay (I think it's active and passive sentences - literally translated). But thanks anyway, I'm more clear about them now!

generalebriety
Go and find a grammar book or a grammar website... This is quite a good starting point for explaining the differences, if a little grammar-heavy. Try not to go through learning all the tables if you're new, it'll only confuse you, but certainly read about the usage if you're interested.

My teacher will help me find a grammar book. I'll do a little bit of studying online as well. I definitely look up that site, thanks!

To everyone, thanks a lot for helping me! Appreciate it lots! Vielen dank!

Entshuldigung. Hope you don't mind me asking this. But how did you guys increase your basic German vocabulary? Every time in lessons, I encounter so many new vocabularies and sentences, I don't know how to store them all in my brain! :stupido:
carefree_sloth
(I think it's active and passive sentences - literally translated)

Possibly, but I doubt it - active and passive mean something very different in German. Still, different languages have different lingo. :biggrin:

Another way to think about it is the difference between "he", "him" and "his". Although we don't distinguish between accusative and dative ("him") all the time (although, occasionally, we put "to him" if we mean dative), we do have the distinction between nominative/subject ("he"), object ("him") and possessive/genitive ("his").

carefree_sloth
Entshuldigung. Hope you don't mind me asking this. But how did you guys increase your basic German vocabulary? Every time in lessons, I encounter so many new vocabularies and sentences, I don't know how to store them all in my brain!

Practise. Talk to yourself. :biggrin: Better yet, talk to others in German - teachers, friends, German penpals, parents (whether they speak German or not), whoever. :biggrin: Helps it stick - just like if you don't use an English word for a while it kind of falls out of your mind till you use it again. (Ever had the feeling where a word's on the tip of your tongue but you can't remember it, and then someone says it? Same thing.) If you keep using the words, you'll learn them. Oh, and by the way, you retain about twice as much of what you hear yourself say out loud than what you read or hear, and even more if you say it out loud and write it. :smile:
Reply 16
generalebriety
Practise. Talk to yourself. :biggrin: Better yet, talk to others in German - teachers, friends, German penpals, parents (whether they speak German or not), whoever. :biggrin: Helps it stick - just like if you don't use an English word for a while it kind of falls out of your mind till you use it again. (Ever had the feeling where a word's on the tip of your tongue but you can't remember it, and then someone says it? Same thing.) If you keep using the words, you'll learn them. Oh, and by the way, you retain about twice as much of what you hear yourself say out loud than what you read or hear, and even more if you say it out loud and write it. :smile:


That's quite good advice:biggrin: I may be forced to take heed of it myself, afterall, I feel that my German knowledge is completely dying out because I work so hard for French.:redface: :frown:
gooner1592
That's quite good advice:biggrin: I may be forced to take heed of it myself, afterall, I feel that my German knowledge is completely dying out because I work so hard for French.:redface: :frown:

Same here, but the other way round. My German's really good, my French is a bit... bof. *does Gallic shrug*
Reply 18
generalebriety
Same here, but the other way round. My German's really good, my French is a bit... bof. *does Gallic shrug*


The joy of learning more than 1 language:p: And I intend on learning Spanish and Italian before I finish learning languages:rolleyes: :p:
generalebriety
Practise. Talk to yourself. :biggrin: Better yet, talk to others in German - teachers, friends, German penpals, parents (whether they speak German or not), whoever. :biggrin: Helps it stick - just like if you don't use an English word for a while it kind of falls out of your mind till you use it again. (Ever had the feeling where a word's on the tip of your tongue but you can't remember it, and then someone says it? Same thing.) If you keep using the words, you'll learn them. Oh, and by the way, you retain about twice as much of what you hear yourself say out loud than what you read or hear, and even more if you say it out loud and write it. :smile:

Hahaha, if only everyone around me speaks German! That option is definitely off. I'll try, but it isn't going to be easy. :p:

I finally got the basic gists of noun declensions. Woo-zah! Let me try...

*searches for a question*
The dog's master comes and gives the dog the ball.

Der Herr des Hundes kommt und gibt den Ball dem Hundes.

I hope that is right, grammatical and logic wise. I got some vocabulary help from a list. :wink:

Oh yeah, can you guys tell me how on earth do you pronounce the -ch? I don't think it's the same as English's. And also the r, do you roll them? Danke!

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