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D&D Religion's "Ask About Judaism" Thread

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Agent Smith
I dimly remember this bit. If the person seeking forgiveness has asked three times, and got three different sets of friends to try to reason with the person they are seeking it from, and they still refuse to forgive, God "switches sides" and condemns them for bearing a grudge.

Or something like that.


Not sure about the friends bit, but basically yes. So long as the person asking is sincere in his request then god expects the victim to forgive. But there are lots of factors - for example don't approach the victim too soon. But at the end of the day no one is going to be "held hostage" as it were by a victim who refuses for no reason to forgive.
UniOfLife
In most cases. But in some situations God will forgive without the forgiveness from the human victim. For example, if the victim has died or is refusing (unfairly) to give forgiveness.

I think in every case... between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur is 10 days of repentence, and we are told to ask each individual for forgiveness because only they can forgive us... we ask G-d separately. That's how important Judaism emphasises morals between man and man, not just man and G-d.

Anyway guys, off to Israel until June 08. I will be on even less than I am now but I'll have occasional access so I hope to be able to answer any questions where possible. Shalom folks.
gemgems89
I think in every case... between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur is 10 days of repentence, and we are told to ask each individual for forgiveness because only they can forgive us... we ask G-d separately. That's how important Judaism emphasises morals between man and man, not just man and G-d.

Anyway guys, off to Israel until June 08. I will be on even less than I am now but I'll have occasional access so I hope to be able to answer any questions where possible. Shalom folks.


Gem - I know about the Aseres Yemei Teshuva, thanks (just to prove my Kosher credentials :smile: ) But the point is that if a person refuses to forgive his forgiveness is no longer needed. I'll try and find the source for you.
Maimonedes, Laws of Forgiveness, Chapter 2 Law 9 and Shulchan Aruch 606:1 both state that if a man refuses to forgive you need only ask three times (each time with a quorom of three others) and if the man refuses "he is the sinner" and the original sinner need not ask again as he has done enough. That means that god has forgiven him as the person never did.
UniOfLife
Maimonedes, Laws of Forgiveness, Chapter 2 Law 9 and Shulchan Aruch 606:1 both state that if a man refuses to forgive you need only ask three times (each time with a quorom of three others) and if the man refuses "he is the sinner" and the original sinner need not ask again as he has done enough. That means that god has forgiven him as the person never did.
Yeah, the "three others" was the "three friends" thing I was referring to.
Agent Smith
Yeah, the "three others" was the "three friends" thing I was referring to.


I realised that when I saw it. I hadn't seen it before. It's actually interesting because while Maimonedes says "three friends" others speak only of "three others". And often Jewish texts use the word "friend" when meaning just any other Jew. Thus it seems likely that here the intention is only for "others" not actual "friends" as we understand the word. This also makes sense as three people can form a rudimentary court which conveys extra formalism while three friends seems a little arbitrary.
I have a question, but I'm new so I'm not sure if this is the ''right'' thread that you people seem to love talking about.

Do Jews take the Torah literally, as in word for word?

Thanks.
Reply 987
Generally, no. Fairly literally, but some things are considered arcane.
chickachicka
I have a question, but I'm new so I'm not sure if this is the ''right'' thread that you people seem to love talking about.

Do Jews take the Torah literally, as in word for word?

Thanks.


I have to disagree with Samba on this one. Orthodox Jews do tend to take the Torah literally. However, there is also the Oral Torah which we use to understand what the Written Torah means.
I have to disagree with UniOfLife, as large parts of the Torah are only understood through the Oral Torah and commentaries, thus not being taken literally.
smellielli
I have to disagree with UniOfLife, as large parts of the Torah are only understood through the Oral Torah and commentaries, thus not being taken literally.


The Oral Torah itself has a principle "no verse leaves its simple meaning". It can and is interpreted on many levels. But the simple literal meaning is (in most cases but by no means all) a valid and necessary understanding of the text. Thus the text is taken literally and non-literally at the same time.
I hear there are two Jews in Afghanistan, and they live on opposite ends of the countrty. :p:
Soc
I hear there are two Jews in Afghanistan, and they live on opposite ends of the countrty. :p:


Version I heard was they live together but argue all the time:

http://www.isjm.org/news/article1.htm
Reply 993
One small-ish question. How is a Jew brought up to percieve Muslims?

From my experience I know that Muslims see Jews in a very negative light from childhood and I wonder whether this favour is repaid.
shaf90
One small-ish question. How is a Jew brought up to percieve Muslims?

From my experience I know that Muslims see Jews in a very negative light from childhood and I wonder whether this favour is repaid.


Jews grow up perceiving Muslims with weariness (in my experience). This is based on our knowledge of how Muslims perceive us (and their reusal and believing in anti-Semitic conspiracy theories) and their attitude to Israel. So I think Jews are not comfortable around Muslims but not because we are taught anything bad about them (because we're not) but because of the way we see them behaving towards us.
When my mother was still somewhat religious I was brought up to view everyone as equal, and we often met up with our Muslim friends - I remember my mum and my friends' mums talking about how similar their cultures were, both being outsiders in Christian Britain I guess. I expect this is common for most Western Jews. Somewhere where there is conflict between Jews and Muslism, e.g Israel will have more variation. What you will find is that schools give a balanced education about Jewish history, modern Israeli history and also teach about other cultures. In the army, Jews learn about Islam ad Arabic culture, even as far as learning Arabic. Most Jews are liberal and are not 'indoctrinated' and the ultra-orthodox children are most likely taught that everyone who do not have the same way of life as them, whether liberal Jew, atheist or Muslim are outsiders, if not inferior. Like any society there will be a minority of racists, but this usually bears out as being more directed towards the surrounding Arabs than Muslims in general. Another thing to remember is that the Jewish texts do not speak of Muslims as they predate Mohammed, whereas there are mentions of Jews and CHristians in Islamic texts - even if these mentions are not necessarily negative, they have allowed those preachers with an agenda to justify their hatred by giving their own interpretation whereas this is not possible in the reverse.
Reply 996
cheesecakebobby
When my mother was still somewhat religious I was brought up to view everyone as equal, and we often met up with our Muslim friends - I remember my mum and my friends' mums talking about how similar their cultures were, both being outsiders in Christian Britain I guess. I expect this is common for most Western Jews. Somewhere where there is conflict between Jews and Muslism, e.g Israel will have more variation. What you will find is that schools give a balanced education about Jewish history, modern Israeli history and also teach about other cultures. In the army, Jews learn about Islam ad Arabic culture, even as far as learning Arabic. Most Jews are liberal and are not 'indoctrinated' and the ultra-orthodox children are most likely taught that everyone who do not have the same way of life as them, whether liberal Jew, atheist or Muslim are outsiders, if not inferior. Like any society there will be a minority of racists, but this usually bears out as being more directed towards the surrounding Arabs than Muslims in general. Another thing to remember is that the Jewish texts do not speak of Muslims as they predate Mohammed, whereas there are mentions of Jews and CHristians in Islamic texts - even if these mentions are not necessarily negative, they have allowed those preachers with an agenda to justify their hatred by giving their own interpretation whereas this is not possible in the reverse.


Do you think that having Muslim friends helps you respect the religion more?

I respect all faiths very much but many people I know do not, especially Judaism and I think this could be to do with the fact that there aren't any Jews in our area and I have never come across one.
The only time we got taught about Muslims in school was in history as part of the National Curriculum (we had to learn about the 5 pillars of Islam).

And ultra-orthodox kids probably don't learn anything about any other religion - they probably know almost nothing about Muslims other than what they pick up from the surrounding society.
shaf90
Do you think that having Muslim friends helps you respect the religion more?
Well, it might help me repesct MUSLIMS more, however none of my friends have been that religious and those who are somewhat religious don't always have the same views so my perspective of Islam comes more from discussions on sites like this and books by Muslims or about Islam.
shaf90
One small-ish question. How is a Jew brought up to percieve Muslims?

From my experience I know that Muslims see Jews in a very negative light from childhood and I wonder whether this favour is repaid.


In my experience, from family (mother being jewish though upbringing to reform Judaism and fairly Apathetic :p: ) and sunday school (Cheder), there was never any mention of Muslims - or any other religions specifically. I don't mean it as if they were a group we actively didn't speak of, just that there was nothing specific to speak of. Infact, it has only been in the past couple of years that I've even heard myself that Muslims don't like Jews - or perhaps naively though it just to be geographical tensions about Israel and biblical claims to the same land!

As for friends, I have never experienced a muslim-on-jew antisematism personally - however it comes from anyone else all the time. Like a point hasto be made "I'm Jewish" so people don't start with jokes down that vein. Infact, I know some people in St. Albans who can't help 'colloqueally' saying "ahh Jewish!" or "don't be a Jew.." and can't even not - knowing that I am Jewish. Most troubling!

Does being friends with a muslim help like them more? I don't hold anything against them anyway, just don't appreciate any kind of rascism thrown my way.. I'm really good friends with a muslim girl - though she's fairly apathetic also, but would have friends that might look at me with distaste. But at the same time, meeting people that don't indiscriminately think badly of you makes you think that perhaps they're not all of the same mindset..

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