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Reply 40
Visiting_Babylon
It would be nice to think that, but as history has quite clearly demonstrated, it was not the case. I think with such an emotional and life-changing decision, as having a baby, especially with people who are in turmoil at the prospect, logic is not a realistic systematic process they go through: if it was, why did so many women die pre-1967?

How amny died in 1966? I don't imagine it was that many actually. Before that, of course, medical technology was a great problem - somehow I don't see any woman submitting to abortion on a rusty table with a coathanger these days.

But yes, why should I - as someone intending to change the law - care about the lot of those who care to ignore what is right and proper. Some might suggest that a risk of death is fitting to someone who intends to kill.

But this is a very different age - adoption is readily available and there is no longer any huge social disgrace in unmarried women giving birth. Somehow I don't think there will be a queue of people risking their lives... but as I've said, my argument does not hinge on this - even if some do die, I can't say I'd have any sympathy.
Reply 41
Adoption? What idiot tells a rape victim to give birth so someone else can raise the child?! No child will want their birth father to be a rapist and they were brought to this world by mistake.
Reply 42
jaroxski
Legal or not makes no difference. You can't stop someone having an abortion. You have no right to judge them. It's their body.


Yes you most certainly can. The number of abortions carried out when it was criminalised in this country were almost insignificant.

And yes, you do have a right to judge and control people - as I've said before, it is the very basis of law and civilised society. So please don't use ridiculous and meaningless soundbytes, they add nothing to the discussion.
Reply 43
You're being a moron.
Reply 44
What, for advocating a position you don't agree with? I think that statement makes you an idiot.

It'd be nice to actually have a debate about abortion without people resorting to name calling and nonsense. And I have to say, it's your camp that are worst at it. Being intolerant will never do you any good.
Reply 45
Changeling
Well I consider a 9 month forced nonconsensual invasion of a woman's body, removing her right and control over her own self to be equivalent to a 9 month continous rape...if that shows my opinion.



I totally agree, why punish the mother and make her have the baby, it was the rapist who was in the wrong so he should take the stigma/responsibilty for the ending of a babies life.
Visiting_Babylon
I was wondering what the pro-life enthuasiasts would say in response to a rape victim seeking an abortion? Why shouldn't these people be allowed to abort?

AND/OR CONSIDER:

Child abuse cases? i.e. where a young girl, say aged 13/14 (young enough to be essentially deemed a 'child', however, biologically fertile) is abused, and becomes pregnant as a result?

I very rarely come into contact with absolute pro-life people, I was wondering their thoughts, really.



Should the victim seek the death of the rapist? If not why not?
Lib North
So what? You agree with me - criminalising it in the UK would likely not lead to any deaths, or are we somehow different from the two jurisdictions on the island of Ireland?


Erm, the women from Ireland come to our country as it's not criminalised, thus if it was criminalised, where would they go, and where would the women in this country go? France? Pay for private healthcare that they can't afford?

You make too many sweeping statements based upon nothing, hence my labelling of you as dogmatic... i.e. 'ohhhh I don't think many people died in 1966'; words to those effect.

I am also quite comfortable in the knowledge that you will never conquer in campaigning against the outlaw of abortion; we are essentially a secular country, whose sentiments are no way near that sort of extremism. :smile:
moonlighting
Should the victim seek the death of the rapist? If not why not?


To be honest, if someone raped me in a brutal way, I might be inclined to want them dead (although, I can't say for definite, as I've never been raped - but, I can say so in a speculative way). Especially as some rapists kill their victims; or in fact care absolutely in no way about their welfare. To use someone as an empty vessel for violent sexual control, and then to discard them as worthless is likely to shape vengeful feeling.
Reply 49
Visiting_Babylon
Erm, the women from Ireland come to our country as it's not criminalised, thus if it was criminalised, where would they go, and where would the women in this country go? France? Pay for private healthcare that they can't afford?


Well, if that's what happens in Ireland, I doubt it'll be much different here. The French can make whatever laws they want, unfortunately.

You make too many sweeping statements based upon nothing, hence my labelling of you as dogmatic... i.e. 'ohhhh I don't think many people died in 1966'; words to those effect.


Well you brought the issue up, the burden of proof is on you. You mentioned "why did so many women die pre-1967?" when you clearly didn't have a clue how many people died. That sounds far more dogmatic to me.

I am also quite comfortable in the knowledge that you will never conquer in campaigning against the outlaw of abortion; we are essentially a secular country, whose sentiments are no way near that sort of extremism.


And I'm a largely secular person. However we can now see unborn children clearly due to technological develops, we are beginning to know what they look like at different stages of development and, as a society, we are now more inclined to look beyond our own benefit. There's nothing extreme about my view - I just disagree with you.

I remind you how quickly opinions and attitudes can change. The opinions of 50 years ago are now considered ridiculous. Therefore I'd recommend you be wary in debates before adopting an 'I'm alright, Jack' attitude.

saturn
I totally agree, why punish the mother and make her have the baby, it was the rapist who was in the wrong so he should take the stigma/responsibilty for the ending of a babies life.


There's no causal link whatsoever. He didn't end the chiid's life, he created it.

We're not "punishing" anybody, we're protecting the unborn child.

Visiting_Babylon
To be honest, if someone raped me in a brutal way, I might be inclined to want them dead (although, I can't say for definite, as I've never been raped - but, I can say so in a speculative way). Especially as some rapists kill their victims; or in fact care absolutely in no way about their welfare. To use someone as an empty vessel for violent sexual control, and then to discard them as worthless is likely to shape vengeful feeling.


And thankfully the law is there in this case to stop you from doing this. It's funny that we protect rapists from your wrath, but not the most innocent members of society: unborn children.
Reply 50
alasdair_R
In general you're anti-choicers tend to be of two or three trends:

1) No Abortions whatsoever - god decides (because yes, most anti-choice types tend to be so on religious grounds)

2) No Abortions accept in the case of Rape or Incest.

3) No Abortions accept in the case of Rape, Incest, or potentially fatal risk to the mother.


Good post. I love the term anti-choicers. Its so much more accurate than pro life. ;yes;
Reply 51
Tufts
Good post. I love the term anti-choicers. Its so much more accurate than pro life. ;yes;


It depends if you want to debate or just throw insults around. I could call you pro-murder, or even an apologist for genocide, but I don't. It's behaving in a civil way and respecting those who disagree with you; it's all part and parcel of maturity.
Reply 52
Lib North
It depends if you want to debate or just throw insults around. I could call you pro-murder, or even an apologist for genocide, but I don't. It's behaving in a civil way and respecting those who disagree with you; it's all part and parcel of maturity.


No. It is not factual that abortion is murder. But it *is* factual that those against abortion are anti-choice ;yes;
Reply 53
Tufts
No. It is not factual that abortion is murder. But it *is* factual that those against abortion are anti-choice ;yes;


"Murder" is not a fact except in law, it is a moral term and as such is a matter of opinion. You are equally anti-choice for not allowing criminals to assault or murder others - so maybe I should be throwing the term back at you to show the hypocrisy.

I remind you abortion is a crime at common law, with statutory exceptions.
I don't have a problem with being called anti-choice actually. I don't see anything derogatory about it.

I disagree with women choosing to have abortions just because they don't feel like having a child.

So yes, I'm anti-choice.

(except for in very exceptional circumstances)

Although I don't see why alasdair and tufts have opted to use this term - it's not like the term pro-life doesn't already exist. why make up a new term? it's not insulting so i see no point to it.
Reply 55
I'm strongly against abortion myself, I have my reasons and it's something I really strongly am against. In the event of rape I feel it is necessary to view the situation on it's own and not make decisions and say " All Rape victims should keep their baby " or "All rape victims should abort". The matter of rape and or very very high risk of mother dying due to birth are the only reasons a child should be aborted.The kind of person the individual who has been raped is will obviously depend on whether they feel strong enough to keep the baby or not . I just hope the majority of people would find the strength to keep their baby but I cannot say they should defientely keep it as I have never experienced it myself meaning I cannot imagine the emotional and pyschological pain rape victims endure. I would like to think if it ever happened I would gather the strength to keep the child.
Reply 56
Lilian
I'm strongly against abortion myself, I have my reasons and it's something I really strongly am against. In the event of rape I feel it is necessary to view the situation on it's own and not make decisions and say " All Rape victims should keep their baby " or "All rape victims should abort". The matter of rape and or very very high risk of mother dying due to birth are the only reasons a child should be aborted.The kind of person the individual who has been raped is will obviously depend on whether they feel strong enough to keep the baby or not . I just hope the majority of people would find the strength to keep their baby but I cannot say they should defientely keep it as I have never experienced it myself meaning I cannot imagine the emotional and pyschological pain rape victims endure. I would like to think if it ever happened I would gather the strength to keep the child.



Well said...However i can't agree ... On Guard! :fight:
Reply 57
jaroxski
Adoption? What idiot tells a rape victim to give birth so someone else can raise the child?! No child will want their birth father to be a rapist and they were brought to this world by mistake.

There are many things in each of our lives that we don't like or don't want e.g. people don't like their siblings, they don't like how they look, they don't like their socio-economic background. In spite of this, there are very few people who can genuinely say "I wish I had never been born" and actually mean it.

There are far more things in life to enjoy and live-for than having a birth-father who cares about you or having birth-parents who planned you coming into existence. As great as those things are, my friends who have been adopted all have happy and fulfilling lives and have no regrets that they were given the opportunity to live
Well no aborted foetus will tell you they would rather have lived. Because they never were a person with consciousness.
Reply 59
XenaGlamRocker
I don't have a problem with being called anti-choice actually. I don't see anything derogatory about it.


Strictly it is correct, but it is a loaded term, and it is not suitable in a reasoned and sensible debate.


cheesecakebobby
Well no aborted foetus will tell you they would rather have lived. Because they never were a person with consciousness.


You cannot provide any evidence in support of that as consciousness is entirely dependent on the subjective experience of the conscious thing.

Not to mention, the present 24 week standard limit is often breached, hundreds of times a year if I recall correctly, at which point a foetus responds to pain etc.

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