Muslims aren&#x27;t the problem, Islam is

Original post by Khadijah489

Your contradicting yourself there by saying that I haven't read the Quran, that's pretty stupid considering that I never denied violence in the first place but oh well. As for those passages, its there for a reason, as the Quran states that the disbelievers will get punished since they are simply not followers of Islam. Also, those passages don't solely reflect on the majority of people, its the minority, again.

Ah, so you accept that the Quran does indeed contain violent and unpleasent passages - but that they're there for a reason.
That's alright then.

Reply 322

Original post by Khadijah489

What I meant when I said that point was that only one passage is directed towards the disbelievers, since it clearly states that the disbelievers will receive a punishment. This is what I meant when I said the passage is only directed towards a minority of people (which is the disbelievers and not the majority (which is the true believers). Obviously some people condemn killing in Islam but sadly some do not and it is these people that are not practising Islam properly.

Sorry, but disbelievers are, and have always been, the vast majority!

Reply 323

Original post by samzy21

I think the problem is the way some people (e.g ISIS) interpret Islam not Islam itself.

Posted from TSR Mobile

The Quran says that slaves may be taken from defeated opponents, and that those slaves that are female may be used for sex.

ISIS use female slaves, taken from defeated opponents, for sex.

Are they misinterpreting the Quran, or is it the person who condemns their actions?

Reply 324

Plantagenet Crown

Original post by Khadijah489

What I meant when I said that point was that only one passage is directed towards the disbelievers, since it clearly states that the disbelievers will receive a punishment. This is what I meant when I said the passage is only directed towards a minority of people (which is the disbelievers and not the majority (which is the true believers). Obviously some people condemn killing in Islam but sadly some do not and it is these people that are not practising Islam properly.

I think you need to reasses your view on the human population. Non-Muslims make up the overwhelming majority of it, not the minority. Besides, this is irrelevant anyway as my point was that the Quran contains violent and unpleasant passages, which it does.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 325

Original post by samzy21

I'm a Muslim and don't believe that the disbelievers will be punished just because they aren't Muslim. There could be a reason why God allowed there to be different religions. If someone has lived a good honest life then there is no reason for them not to be rewarded after death no matter what their beliefs are or what religion they follow or not follow. At the end of the day it is not for us humans to decide who will be punished or not, it is God's.

Didn't you just have a go at ISIS for misinterpreting the Quran (when they are just being literal)?

Yet now, you reject several clear passages because it doesn't correspond to your own personal beliefs! It's a good job that you don't believe in the Quran on the subject of disbelief and hell, because your belief might have consigned yourself there!

Reply 326

Plantagenet Crown

Original post by Khadijah489

Reasons for asking you that question was based solely because I wanted to find out why you thought that it contained violent and unpleasant passages, basically, making sure you weren't just talking a load of ******** :smile:

although I did sound as if I was contradicting myself, I disagreed with the point that you made when you said that it was unpleasant and violent, those passages are there for a reason, the Quran certainly does not condemn killing and it never has done, your prejudice towards the passages and the religion itself is quite offensive as well, since you have to understand why those passages are there in the first place. The Quran has those passages for a reason, you will need to read more about it in depth in order to understand. I cannot stand bigotry at all but if thats your opinion then I respect it.

Nonsense! How is ordering the death of unbelievers and saying they should be crucified and have their limbs cut off NOT unpleasant and violent?! It clearly is and I'm yet to see you give a reasonable justification for such hatred spewed against us by your holy book. And once again, this doesn't change the fact that the Quran is full of vile material.

Reply 327

Kalail

18

It is a select few muslims at fault for the bad representation of their faith. Anyways, why do people see ISIS as an accurate representation of Islam, and they don't see the KKK as an accurate representation of Christianity. It is effed up

Reply 328

TheArtofProtest

2

Original post by Hydeman

Disbelievers in Islam? Surely that's a contradiction in terms? A disbeliever in Islam is, by definition, not following Islam.

Just to clarify some terms to you, for you seem to have got yourself muddled a little:

A believer, by definition, is someone who accepts a particular faith.
A disbeliever, by definition, is someone who rejects a particular faith.
A non-believer, by definition, is someone who does not believe in a faith.
An unbeliever, by definition, is someone who has no faith.

I understand that it's easy to confuse the concepts, especially as they are prone to overlaps.

However, in making a general point, a disbeliever in Islam is not a contradiction in terms for one has to qualify what they disbelieve in, either through context or with explicit reference.

There are more non-believers than believers (in relation to Islam) but one could not stretch any statistical probability to categorize all non-believers as disbelievers, as @BaconandSauce has done and as @Plantagenet Crown and @QE2 have mistakenly led themselves to believe.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 329

Original post by Kalail

It is a select few muslims at fault for the bad representation of their faith. Anyways, why do people see ISIS as an accurate representation of Islam, and they don't see the KKK as an accurate representation of Christianity. It is effed up

because as already shown

'If the Quran says that it is permissible to keep slaves (under the appropriate conditions), who is the better Muslim - the one who accepts that slavery is still permissible, or the one who utterly condemns and rejects it?

Likewise, where the Quran says that a husband may beat his disobedient wife (under the appropriate conditions), who is correctly following Islam - the one who says that wife-beating is still permissible, or the one who utterly condemns and rejects it?

And so on...'

Reply 330

Original post by TheArtofProtest

Just to clarify some terms to you, for you seem to have got yourself muddled a little:

A believer, by definition, is someone who accepts a particular faith.
A disbeliever, by definition, is someone who rejects a particular faith.
A non-believer, by definition, is someone who does not believe in a faith.
An unbeliever, by definition, is someone who has no faith.

I understand that it's easy to confuse the concepts, especially as they are prone to overlaps.

However, in making a general point, a disbeliever in Islam is not a contradiction in terms for one has to qualify what they disbelieve in, either through context or with explicit reference.

There are more non-believers than believers (in relation to Islam) but one could not stretch any statistical probability to categorize all non-believers as disbelievers, as @BaconandSauce has done.

No not really given they are talking about 'believers in islam' it helps if you read the posts I'm replying to

and I quote them directly

'you are just assuming that there are more disbelievers in islam than there are believers'

so you can see they used the term 'in islam' not just 'believers'

so

A believer 'in Islam', by definition, is someone who accepts Islam.
A disbeliever 'in Islam', by definition, is someone who rejects Islam.
A non-believer 'in Islam', by definition, is someone who does not believe in Islam
An unbeliever 'in Islam', by definition, is someone who has disbelieves is Islam.

In your rush to make me look stupid you've well and truly shot your self in the foot. Par of the course though given your usual muddled posts

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 331

Original post by Kalail

It is a select few muslims at fault for the bad representation of their faith. Anyways, why do people see ISIS as an accurate representation of Islam,

ISIS are not the only representation of Islam, but they are a legitimate and valid interpretation when you compare words and deeds to the content of the Quran and sunnah.
Remember that the Quran is unchangeable, and the sunnah is the perfect example for all humanity, so it would seem that they may well be a more accurate representation of Islam as practiced by Muhammad.

and they don't see the KKK as an accurate representation of Christianity. It is effed up

The KKK was not set up as a representation of Christianity, and it never claimed to be one. It was a political organisation that aimed to maintain white supremacy and the power of the plantation owners in the Southern states after the Civil War. It was not attempting to establish a Christian theocracy based on a literalist interpretation of the Bible. Unlike ISIS, neither their goals not their methods came from any scriptural reference.

Reply 332

TheArtofProtest

2

Original post by BaconandSauce

No not really given they are talking about 'believers in islam' it help if you read the posts I'm replying to

and I quote them directly

'you are just assuming that there are more disbelievers in islam than there are believers'

so you can see they used the term 'in islam' not just 'believers'

In your rush to make me look stupid you've well and truly shot your self in the foot. Par of the course though given your usual muddled posts

Whether they stated "believers in Islam" makes no difference to the fact that what you presented as "research" wasn't in any way, shape or form demonstrating that there are "more disbelievers in Islam than there are believers" (one assumes this relates to the belief in Islam).

You might have assumed disbelievers is the same as non-believers and whilst there may be overlap, this simply isn't the case.

If you have, and I think you mentioned that you did have, research to show that there are more disbelievers than believers in Islam, then I'd love to see it because I think it would be a struggle to even start to quantify it, as would be the case with any ideology or faith, unless diametrically opposed.

EDIT: Just seen your edit above and it makes absolutely no difference to what you presented as research. As I mentioned in my post to @Hydeman - Belief in something is usually contained within the context of a discussion or through explicit reference. All you've done, is simply add on the words "in Islam" and substituted "faith" for Islam.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 333

Prince_fancybum

13

As Muslims are part of Islam doesn't that make them part of the problem

Reply 334

Original post by TheArtofProtest

Whether they stated "believers in Islam" makes no difference

Yes it does

You can say it doesn't as much as you like but in reality it does It is a fact there are more disbelievers in Islam than there are believers

Now keep digging yourself out of the stupid mistake you made if you like but we can all see the stupidity of your post

Reply 335

Plantagenet Crown

Original post by BaconandSauce

Yes it does

You can say it doesn't as much as you like but in reality it does It is a fact there are more disbelievers in Islam than there are believers

Now keep digging yourself out of the stupid mistake you made if you like but we can all see the stupidity of your post

Exactly, there are more disbelievers in Islam than believers in it. This member is, as usual, being ridiculously pedantic, kind of reminds me of tsr1269..

Reply 336