If God exists, then who created HIM? HE DOESN'T EXIST!
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Original post by Plantagenet Crown
How could any theist reasonably say there is something more complex than God? A being who knows everything and is able to do everything?
God is, theist's generally hold, an extremely simple thing - an unembodied mind. Complexity is not a perfection - there is no need for God to be complex. In fact, complexity is arguably an imperfection.
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Original post by SunnysideSea
We know nothing of what 'laws' may or may not exist outside the universe. It is the atheist's *faith* that causation is not necessary, and the theist's that it is. I know which I find more likely. Something from nothing is absurd.
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Its absurd because you are in this universe bound by the laws of cause and effect.Thats why it seems absurd to you.And I never actually said causation wasn't necessary just that it might not be.Atheists don't claim to know anything about the actual cause of the universe or why it exists at all.It is theists that claim that it was God.Theists are the ones saying they have the answer,atheists say they don't know what the answer is.That you find a magical man suddenly wishing the universe into existence more likely says a lot about your lack of critical thinking skills.Regardless it is one thing to argue for the diestic impersonal god and quite another to argue for the personal petty God of the bible or most religions.The first position is defensible although flawed;the second position is rediculous.
Original post by Robby2312
Its absurd because you are in this universe bound by the laws of cause and effect.Thats why it seems absurd to you.And I never actually said causation wasn't necessary just that it might not be.Atheists don't claim to know anything about the actual cause of the universe or why it exists at all.It is theists that claim that it was God.Theists are the ones saying they have the answer,atheists say they don't know what the answer is.That you find a magical man suddenly wishing the universe into existence more likely says a lot about your lack of critical thinking skills.Regardless it is one thing to argue for the diestic impersonal god and quite another to argue for the personal petty God of the bible or most religions.The first position is defensible although flawed;the second position is rediculous.
So you're agreeing that it is the atheist's faith that something can come from nothing. Just so long as we appreciate this. Next time you accuse a theist of 'blind faith', please remember this.
Don't caricature God a a 'magical man', he isn't a 'man' and he isn't 'magic'. Perhaps you may find theism ridiculous, but it's actually a very short leap from deism to theism. Why would a mind create the universe, only then to ignore it and never think of it again? That's a rather odd position to take. Indeed, the improbability of the origin of life, for example, suggests the creator even had us in mind. Once deism is shown to be reasonable, and you certainly haven't shown why it is not, theism becomes much more likely.
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Original post by Robby2312
The teological argument also has flaws.Cause and effect only applies inside this universe.Its a law of this universe.But before the universe existed none of those laws have to apply.Cause and effect doesn't apply before the universe because its a law of this universe.How can cause and effect apply if there is no universe? Cause and effect need not apply to the creation of the universe.Whatever the universe came from would surely be outside the universe where cause and effect is not a law.
The teological argument also has flaws.Cause and effect only applies inside this universe.Its a law of this universe.But before the universe existed none of those laws have to apply.Cause and effect doesn't apply before the universe because its a law of this universe.How can cause and effect apply if there is no universe? Cause and effect need not apply to the creation of the universe.Whatever the universe came from would surely be outside the universe where cause and effect is not a law.
Any reason to think this is true?
And what is a law of nature
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Original post by Whitewell
I never said it was true.I'm saying that cause and effect doesn't have to apply to whatever preceded the universe.It might only be a property of the universe we are inside.So to argue that something must have caused the universe doesn't hold true.Because if cause and effect doesn't apply then the universe doesn't need a cause.Its just speculation though.There is no way to know for sure.
What caused the big bang ?
Original post by SunnysideSea
So you're agreeing that it is the atheist's faith that something can come from nothing. Just so long as we appreciate this. Next time you accuse a theist of 'blind faith', please remember this.
Don't caricature God a a 'magical man', he isn't a 'man' and he isn't 'magic'. Perhaps you may find theism ridiculous, but it's actually a very short leap from deism to theism. Why would a mind create the universe, only then to ignore it and never think of it again? That's a rather odd position to take. Indeed, the improbability of the origin of life, for example, suggests the creator even had us in mind. Once deism is shown to be reasonable, and you certainly haven't shown why it is not, theism becomes much more likely.
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Don't caricature God a a 'magical man', he isn't a 'man' and he isn't 'magic'. Perhaps you may find theism ridiculous, but it's actually a very short leap from deism to theism. Why would a mind create the universe, only then to ignore it and never think of it again? That's a rather odd position to take. Indeed, the improbability of the origin of life, for example, suggests the creator even had us in mind. Once deism is shown to be reasonable, and you certainly haven't shown why it is not, theism becomes much more likely.
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You are the one saying that God can come from nothing.If god can come from nothing then why can't the universe.Likewise if god existed forever then why can't the universe.Its not a caricature.Everything God is attributed to do can be described as magic.He takes on a human form in most religions.Magic man is actually pretty accurate.The theistic position is rediculous because you are saying that God picks one race out of one species of all the billions of species that have ever lived and delivers a seemingly important message to some illiterate man in the desert.A nd what does he say? He says don't eat certain foods,cut off parts of yourself,don't masturbate,worship me constantly,women should be submissive,d on't drink alchohol and don't put your dick in a particular place.That is not something a supreme being would say.A supreme being would have better things to do.Add to this the thousands of gods throughout history and the religous position looks absurd.
Original post by Carthaginian
There's evidence for evolution, but there's no evidence for God.
Beats me. But we all know the big bang happened; God did that!
Original post by Robby2312
You are the one saying that God can come from nothing.If god can come from nothing then why can't the universe.Likewise if god existed forever then why can't the universe.Its not a caricature.Everything God is attributed to do can be described as magic.He takes on a human form in most religions.Magic man is actually pretty accurate.The theistic position is rediculous because you are saying that God picks one race out of one species of all the billions of species that have ever lived and delivers a seemingly important message to some illiterate man in the desert.A nd what does he say? He says don't eat certain foods,cut off parts of yourself,don't masturbate,worship me constantly,women should be submissive,d on't drink alchohol and don't put your dick in a particular place.That is not something a supreme being would say.A supreme being would have better things to do.Add to this the thousands of gods throughout history and the religous position looks absurd.
There are several reasons we have for thinking the universe has not existed forever: Big Bang cosmology, second law of thermodynamics, impossibility of making infinite series from continuous addition, the impossibility of an actual infinite etc. Unless you care to refute these, you cannot say the universe has always existed and just stop there. God, on the other hand, is external of the universe. Time is a property of the universe and as such God transcends time - to say he has existed forever is synonymous with saying he exists, unlike with the universe.
As for all that other nonsense, you can carry on straw manning the hell out of God if you want, but it won't persuade anyone. Most of these things you mention are the by-product of something else. So being against gay sex is not because religions are against gay sex per se, but against all sex outside of marriage, whether gay or straight. This is a very different, and important, discussion. I suggest we deal with it on another thread devoted to it.
You seem to make the claim that a 'supreme being' would have something better to do. I ask, do you have any personal experience of being a supreme being? No? Well what makes you think you know what a supreme being would or would not want to do? You're trying to be a God-psychologist when you make claims like that, but they are, and always will be, baseless.
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Original post by Robby2312
I never said it was true.I'm saying that cause and effect doesn't have to apply to whatever preceded the universe.It might only be a property of the universe we are inside.So to argue that something must have caused the universe doesn't hold true.Because if cause and effect doesn't apply then the universe doesn't need a cause.Its just speculation though.There is no way to know for sure.
But why think that cause and effect might only be a property inside the universe? If there's not even a reason to support it, then it seems nothing more than random speculation.
If cause and effect doesnt apply outside, then why think it applies inside? If you appeal to some law or a number of them, how does a law of nature actually effect anything?
Original post by Trichakra
God created universe. No one created him.
It's more logical to believe in a scientific theory which gives us a kind of reasonable explaination for the creation of a universe than some God who makes a universe.
Original post by Jane453
There's design in evolution and so design in the universe suggests a creator, the creator being god. Look at the watch Analogy, if u stubble across a watch u assume there's a creator for such design but why don't we think the same when we see a rock ? Design in the universe example is that all mammals have a certain number of teats to match the number of offspring at one time
- teleological argument
The universe is a long chain of cause and effects, this goes back to the beginning of time and time began with the creation of the universe. As the universe had a beginning it will have an end ( contingent ) a contingent universe needs a necessary being this being god. God must be distinct from the universe to create it ( e.g. U can't make a box while being in the box )
- cosmological argument aquinas
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- teleological argument
The universe is a long chain of cause and effects, this goes back to the beginning of time and time began with the creation of the universe. As the universe had a beginning it will have an end ( contingent ) a contingent universe needs a necessary being this being god. God must be distinct from the universe to create it ( e.g. U can't make a box while being in the box )
- cosmological argument aquinas
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Design in evolution eh?
If he designed that then he's a blind creator because evolution has no specific end and has no ultimate goal. And thus God is a Blind watchmaker as stated by Dawkins.
Is there design in the universe? Look at all the places we can't live. Look at all the things which can kill us, if you do biology you learn the body is very inefficient so where is the design in that? Check out neil degrasse tyson on stupid design
Because it's not like the the things around it. Someone has designed that watch and then what? See we know watches have a watchmaker because they exist and we c an test that fact but we have never had experience of multiple universes so how can we know that the universe has a designer?(Hume)
Just because an effect in a chain has a cause doesn't mean that the pattern continues. Humans have a mother but the human race doesn't have a mother. For example
Can the universe itself not be necessary? Can the universe not be infinite?
Lastly maybe this does prove something made the universe but why does it have to be god?
Original post by That'sGreat
How convenient is it that whenever science proves something, Christians suddenly remember that God already said he caused it to happen *cough cough* evolution.
God of the Gaps bud
Original post by SunnysideSea
There are several reasons we have for thinking the universe has not existed forever: Big Bang cosmology, second law of thermodynamics, impossibility of making infinite series from continuous addition, the impossibility of an actual infinite etc. Unless you care to refute these, you cannot say the universe has always existed and just stop there. God, on the other hand, is external of the universe. Time is a property of the universe and as such God transcends time - to say he has existed forever is synonymous with saying he exists, unlike with the universe.
As for all that other nonsense, you can carry on straw manning the hell out of God if you want, but it won't persuade anyone. Most of these things you mention are the by-product of something else. So being against gay sex is not because religions are against gay sex per se, but against all sex outside of marriage, whether gay or straight. This is a very different, and important, discussion. I suggest we deal with it on another thread devoted to it.
You seem to make the claim that a 'supreme being' would have something better to do. I ask, do you have any personal experience of being a supreme being? No? Well what makes you think you know what a supreme being would or would not want to do? You're trying to be a God-psychologist when you make claims like that, but they are, and always will be, baseless.
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As for all that other nonsense, you can carry on straw manning the hell out of God if you want, but it won't persuade anyone. Most of these things you mention are the by-product of something else. So being against gay sex is not because religions are against gay sex per se, but against all sex outside of marriage, whether gay or straight. This is a very different, and important, discussion. I suggest we deal with it on another thread devoted to it.
You seem to make the claim that a 'supreme being' would have something better to do. I ask, do you have any personal experience of being a supreme being? No? Well what makes you think you know what a supreme being would or would not want to do? You're trying to be a God-psychologist when you make claims like that, but they are, and always will be, baseless.
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I'm not trying to be a God-phychologist.But these are the kind of petty concerns that humans have.They fit much more with the idea that humans created God than the other way around.The god of the bible displays rage,jealousy,anger capriciousness and yes love as well.But those are all human emotions and human concerns.Its much more likely that humans made up these stories and imprinted their own attributes onto God.They created God in their own image.Thats why he appears to have petty concerns about masturbation and what foods you should eat.The god of abraham hates homosexuality because the humans who wrote those stories also hated it.The fact that God appears to have these petty concerns points towards a man-made explanation for religion rather than a divine one.
Saying that God is external of the universe and outside of time is just a cop out that theists use.If God can have always existed then so can the universe.The fact of the matter is that there is absoloutely no evidence for god.And what exactly created God? Why does the universe need a creator but not God?
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by SunnysideSea
There are several reasons we have for thinking the universe has not existed forever: Big Bang cosmology, second law of thermodynamics, impossibility of making infinite series from continuous addition, the impossibility of an actual infinite etc. Unless you care to refute these, you cannot say the universe has always existed and just stop there. God, on the other hand, is external of the universe. Time is a property of the universe and as such God transcends time - to say he has existed forever is synonymous with saying he exists, unlike with the universe.
so can you help me with this, how would you refute those who say God has plans and thoughts and this requires time meaning God is subject to time and God has a physical form, (in Christianity Jesus is seen as god, but in Islam it's different, it's said God has hands and feet (similar to humans, but different) and this requires space. pretty much they saying God is bound by time and space, like humans.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by redleader1
What caused the big bang ?
Don't know.Thats the whole point of science,to find out stuff.
Why have we necro'd a post providing the most useless anti-God argument in existence? come on lads sort it out
Original post by will'o'wisp
It's more logical to believe in a scientific theory which gives us a kind of reasonable explaination for the creation of a universe than some God who makes a universe.
Design in evolution eh?
If he designed that then he's a blind creator because evolution has no specific end and has no ultimate goal. And thus God is a Blind watchmaker as stated by Dawkins.
Is there design in the universe? Look at all the places we can't live. Look at all the things which can kill us, if you do biology you learn the body is very inefficient so where is the design in that? Check out neil degrasse tyson on stupid design
Because it's not like the the things around it. Someone has designed that watch and then what? See we know watches have a watchmaker because they exist and we c an test that fact but we have never had experience of multiple universes so how can we know that the universe has a designer?(Hume)
Just because an effect in a chain has a cause doesn't mean that the pattern continues. Humans have a mother but the human race doesn't have a mother. For example
Can the universe itself not be necessary? Can the universe not be infinite?
Lastly maybe this does prove something made the universe but why does it have to be god?
God of the Gaps bud
Design in evolution eh?
If he designed that then he's a blind creator because evolution has no specific end and has no ultimate goal. And thus God is a Blind watchmaker as stated by Dawkins.
Is there design in the universe? Look at all the places we can't live. Look at all the things which can kill us, if you do biology you learn the body is very inefficient so where is the design in that? Check out neil degrasse tyson on stupid design
Because it's not like the the things around it. Someone has designed that watch and then what? See we know watches have a watchmaker because they exist and we c an test that fact but we have never had experience of multiple universes so how can we know that the universe has a designer?(Hume)
Just because an effect in a chain has a cause doesn't mean that the pattern continues. Humans have a mother but the human race doesn't have a mother. For example
Can the universe itself not be necessary? Can the universe not be infinite?
Lastly maybe this does prove something made the universe but why does it have to be god?
God of the Gaps bud
If the universe had a beginning, science will be completely unable to help. Science deals only with what is inside the universe. Sorry about that.
Evolution has taken place as better adpated organisms reproduce better so pass on their genes. Firstly, the mutation process is random (why people like you call evolution a 'random' process). This apparent randomness, rather than excluding God, fits perfectly with the idea that evolution is in fact guided by God to produce humans. There is also the question of the environment in which mutating animals find themselves, which determines how they evolve. Again, plenty of scope for potential guidance from God.
You assume that God's design must in some way be perfect, or maximally efficient. Why should God care about how efficient we are? What use has God of efficiency? You're attempting God-psychology, and it just doesn't work. The fact that for any life to exist in the universe the odds are 1 part in 10 to the power of 10 to the power of 123 is enough to demonstrate we were intended to be - to any reasonable person, at least. Bear in mind that that is a number so enormous that if you were to write a digit on every atom in the universe there wouldn't be enough atoms to go round. Just because there are certain areas in which we cannot live does nothing to affect this.
We should not postulate multiple designers based on the principle of Ockham's Razor.
The universe itself is not necessary because everything in it depends on something else and is therefore contingent. We can conceive of its non-existence.
The universe cannot be infinite due to impossibility of actual infinites and of making an infinite series from coninuous addition.
By God we mean creator of the universe, so asking if the creator of the universe could not be God is a contradiction in terms.
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(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by SunnysideSea
God is, theist's generally hold, an extremely simple thing - an unembodied mind. Complexity is not a perfection - there is no need for God to be complex. In fact, complexity is arguably an imperfection.
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Actually, theists consider God to be something more akin to a spirit than a mind and to deny God is complex is rather disingenuous. By definition God must be the most complex thing in existence to have the intelligence and magical powers to create everything in the universe, much of which is inconceivably complex. And this isn't even considering other of God's traditional powers such as omniscience, omnipresence etc.
If you claim the complexity of the universe is more complex than the creator itself then you have no leg to stand on when trying to refute the argument that an entire universe can come from almost non-existent quantum fluctuations.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by redleader1
What caused the big bang ?
Nobody knows, but there's certainly no evidence it was a god.
Original post by Robby2312
Saying that God is external of the universe and outside of time is just a cop out that theists use.If God can have always existed then so can the universe.The fact of the matter is that there is absoloutely no evidence for god.And what exactly created God? Why does the universe need a creator but not God?
Saying that God is external of the universe and outside of time is just a cop out that theists use.If God can have always existed then so can the universe.The fact of the matter is that there is absoloutely no evidence for god.And what exactly created God? Why does the universe need a creator but not God?
This is an obvious attempt at ignoring what he says. He has given arguments for thinking God is outside of time, as well as why there are reasons to think the universe didnt always exist. Your replies are simply assertions that act as though he hasnt given arguments.
As for saying that there is "absolutely no evidence for God" - that is question begging, for this is specifically what he is arguing! Again, you cant assert that and then demand that you are taking the reasonable position.
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Original post by Plantagenet Crown
Actually, theists consider God to be something more akin to a spirit than a mind and to deny God is complex is rather disingenuous. By definition God must be the most complex thing in existence to have the intelligence and magical powers to create everything in the universe, much of which is inconceivably complex. And this isn't even considering other of God's traditional powers such as omniscience, omnipresence etc.
If you claim the complexity of the universe is more complex than the creator itself then you have no leg to stand on when trying to refute the argument that an entire universe can come from almost non-existent quantum fluctuations.
If you claim the complexity of the universe is more complex than the creator itself then you have no leg to stand on when trying to refute the argument that an entire universe can come from almost non-existent quantum fluctuations.
Sorry this really isn't a very good argument. Power, for example, has absolutely nothing to do with complexity. The wheel, some say, is the most powerful invention ever made - it's literally transformed the world. Yet it's far simpler than many less powerful things, like an electric toothbrush, for example, which, while very complex, has achieved very little. The same goes for God's other attributes.
Whether or not the universe came from quantum fluctuations has absolutely nothing to do with complexity. At all. I really don't know why you've brought this into it.
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