Should nurses be paid more?
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Original post by AMac86
Because emigrating is a very big life change that most people don't want to do. You may not meet immigration requirements, there may be language barriers, your spouse may not be able to work even if you can, you may not want to leave elderly parents or other family members behind, or leave behind friends and a community you're settled in, uprooting children from schooling & friends, etc...
That's why people may generally take a lower paid "localish" private sector job rather than emigrate - of course the higher the premium pay for emigrating becomes the stronger the pull factor, which is affecting NHS staff retention.
That's why people may generally take a lower paid "localish" private sector job rather than emigrate - of course the higher the premium pay for emigrating becomes the stronger the pull factor, which is affecting NHS staff retention.
Still unclear how the private sector attracts people on lower pay than the NHS yet the NHS wouldn't be able to fill roles if they adopted the same lower pay.
Original post by Quady
Still unclear how the private sector attracts people on lower pay than the NHS yet the NHS wouldn't be able to fill roles if they adopted the same lower pay.
some private sector roles will be on lower pay - that might be because those roles are less specialist, or less shift work, or all sorts of reasons. How a relatively small % of nurses in the private sector are paid doesn’t help an NHS that is already struggling with recruitment & retention particularly at the experienced grades that you really really need to keep hospitals running.
If you want to learn more about private sector nursing pay - lots of info out there on google.
Original post by Quady
Ah right.
How come people take the private sector jobs on lower pay rather than emigrate?
How come people take the private sector jobs on lower pay rather than emigrate?
because those jobs exist and it;s often a lifestyle choice to take those jobs rathwr then situation we have seen particularly with medicine but has been on going with many health professions for many years (Nurses often used to go to Gulf states for a few years , steady flow of Nurses and Police ofgficers to Aus / NZ for many years)
Original post by Quady
Still unclear how the private sector attracts people on lower pay than the NHS yet the NHS wouldn't be able to fill roles if they adopted the same lower pay.
As we previously explained to you in the posts you clearly did not read before replying , this is because these roles provide a lifestyle choice , whether that is fixed shifts , or an absence of weekend and night working. The individuals taking up these roles are often doing so as part of a wider lifestyle choice around family or because of the working patterns and /or earnings of their partner i.e. thay are often NOT the primary / largest earner in the household
I see the Employer (i.e. Government / i.e. us the Taxpayer) is now paying NHS staff 23.7% contributions into their staff pension pots.
Be interesting to see if anyone here in the Private Sector received such an increase / gets anywhere near that level...
Be interesting to see if anyone here in the Private Sector received such an increase / gets anywhere near that level...
(edited 3 weeks ago)
I'd recommend a quick google where you can find plenty of info on typical employer pension contribution rates. A defined benefit scheme doesn't have the same concept of "pots" for individual staff, instead the scheme as a whole has to be funded to a level that allows it to meet it's liabilities.
Public sector pensions do tend to be more generous than private sector DC pensions where a typical rate will be between 5-10% employer contribution. The trade off is that relative to the skills and demands of the role, public sector roles, particularly mid-senior roles tend to pay less (often much less) than the private sector, which can more than offset the better pension -
Plus whilst a good pension is an important part of remuneration package, it doesn't help you meet day-to-day living costs or trying to pull together a house deposit (ie. time value of money).
Public sector pensions do tend to be more generous than private sector DC pensions where a typical rate will be between 5-10% employer contribution. The trade off is that relative to the skills and demands of the role, public sector roles, particularly mid-senior roles tend to pay less (often much less) than the private sector, which can more than offset the better pension -
Plus whilst a good pension is an important part of remuneration package, it doesn't help you meet day-to-day living costs or trying to pull together a house deposit (ie. time value of money).
Original post by AMac86
I'd recommend a quick google where you can find plenty of info on typical employer pension contribution rates. A defined benefit scheme doesn't have the same concept of "pots" for individual staff, instead the scheme as a whole has to be funded to a level that allows it to meet it's liabilities.
Public sector pensions do tend to be more generous than private sector DC pensions where a typical rate will be between 5-10% employer contribution. The trade off is that relative to the skills and demands of the role, public sector roles, particularly mid-senior roles tend to pay less (often much less) than the private sector, which can more than offset the better pension -
Plus whilst a good pension is an important part of remuneration package, it doesn't help you meet day-to-day living costs or trying to pull together a house deposit (ie. time value of money).
Public sector pensions do tend to be more generous than private sector DC pensions where a typical rate will be between 5-10% employer contribution. The trade off is that relative to the skills and demands of the role, public sector roles, particularly mid-senior roles tend to pay less (often much less) than the private sector, which can more than offset the better pension -
Plus whilst a good pension is an important part of remuneration package, it doesn't help you meet day-to-day living costs or trying to pull together a house deposit (ie. time value of money).
"I'd recommend a quick google where you can find plenty of info on typical employer pension contribution rates. A defined benefit scheme doesn't have the same concept of "pots" for individual staff, instead the scheme as a whole has to be funded to a level that allows it to meet it's liabilities."
What are you talking about?
"Public sector pensions do tend to be more generous than private sector DC pensions where a typical rate will be between 5-10% employer contribution. The trade off is that relative to the skills and demands of the role, public sector roles, particularly mid-senior roles tend to pay less (often much less) than the private sector, which can more than offset the better pension"
Absolute nonsense - the NHS has a tiered system (Gradings) like most other roles in the Private Sector
Plus whilst a good pension is an important part of remuneration package, it doesn't help you meet day-to-day living costs or trying to pull together a house deposit (ie. time value of money)
Right - here's an example:
Nurse is on £25,000 starting salary. They receive 24% of our money (taxes), into their pension. Let's say they contribute 6% personal payment to achieve a 30% pension contribution.
If someone in the Private Sector is to achieve this level of contribution (10% Employer / 20% Personal), they would have to sacrifice £5,000 into the pension.
So, the NHS worker sacrifices £1,500 of their yearly pay - roughly £125 per month.
Private Sector worker sacrifices £5,000 yearly pay - £415 per month
This mean that the NHS worker is 'better off' by £3,500 per year - £290 per month
That's before you equate the Public's taxed payment into that 'Pot'
Original post by milosovich
"I'd recommend a quick google where you can find plenty of info on typical employer pension contribution rates. A defined benefit scheme doesn't have the same concept of "pots" for individual staff, instead the scheme as a whole has to be funded to a level that allows it to meet it's liabilities."
What are you talking about?
"Public sector pensions do tend to be more generous than private sector DC pensions where a typical rate will be between 5-10% employer contribution. The trade off is that relative to the skills and demands of the role, public sector roles, particularly mid-senior roles tend to pay less (often much less) than the private sector, which can more than offset the better pension"
Absolute nonsense - the NHS has a tiered system (Gradings) like most other roles in the Private Sector
Plus whilst a good pension is an important part of remuneration package, it doesn't help you meet day-to-day living costs or trying to pull together a house deposit (ie. time value of money)
Right - here's an example:
Nurse is on £25,000 starting salary. They receive 24% of our money (taxes), into their pension. Let's say they contribute 6% personal payment to achieve a 30% pension contribution.
If someone in the Private Sector is to achieve this level of contribution (10% Employer / 20% Personal), they would have to sacrifice £5,000 into the pension.
So, the NHS worker sacrifices £1,500 of their yearly pay - roughly £125 per month.
Private Sector worker sacrifices £5,000 yearly pay - £415 per month
This mean that the NHS worker is 'better off' by £3,500 per year - £290 per month
That's before you equate the Public's taxed payment into that 'Pot'
What are you talking about?
"Public sector pensions do tend to be more generous than private sector DC pensions where a typical rate will be between 5-10% employer contribution. The trade off is that relative to the skills and demands of the role, public sector roles, particularly mid-senior roles tend to pay less (often much less) than the private sector, which can more than offset the better pension"
Absolute nonsense - the NHS has a tiered system (Gradings) like most other roles in the Private Sector
Plus whilst a good pension is an important part of remuneration package, it doesn't help you meet day-to-day living costs or trying to pull together a house deposit (ie. time value of money)
Right - here's an example:
Nurse is on £25,000 starting salary. They receive 24% of our money (taxes), into their pension. Let's say they contribute 6% personal payment to achieve a 30% pension contribution.
If someone in the Private Sector is to achieve this level of contribution (10% Employer / 20% Personal), they would have to sacrifice £5,000 into the pension.
So, the NHS worker sacrifices £1,500 of their yearly pay - roughly £125 per month.
Private Sector worker sacrifices £5,000 yearly pay - £415 per month
This mean that the NHS worker is 'better off' by £3,500 per year - £290 per month
That's before you equate the Public's taxed payment into that 'Pot'
There are two main types of pension schemes, defined benefit and defined contribution. Defined contribution are what most private sector pensions are today, defined benefit are very rare today in the private sector but still very common in the public sector - the NHS pension scheme is a defined benefit scheme.
Defined contribution works by you [and your employer] contributing money to an individual pension pot thats yours - the funds are invested and when you reach pensionable age whatever's in the pot + the investment proceeds are used to then pay your pension, based solely on how your specific individual pot has grown.
Defined benefit works differently. Each year you accrue in the scheme gives you a right to a future % of your pay to be paid when you reach pensionable age - typical rates are about 1/60th (ie. work a year, you gain a right to have 1/60th of your annual salary paid out each year as your pension at pensionable age. There is no individual pot of contributions allocated to you, yours + employers contributions are paid to fund the scheme as a whole to meet all future liabilities, irrespective of investment performance.
Re your comment of "absolute nonsense" - I think you've misunderstood, I wasn't claiming the NHS doesn't have a tired system of pay, my point was that within the bands of that tiered system, private sector roles of comparable seniority often pay more and the disparity increases the more senior you become.
On the final point - again I think you've misunderstood, I already stated above that a pension forms a part of your total compensation and its a great benefit, but you have to factor in that you don't get the extra pensionable pay now, you get in the future. Great for sure, but rights to a pension in 20-40 years time doesn't help a person starting out in early years of their career fund your day to day living costs or save for a house deposit now. Ditto a deferred benefit of (to use your example) of c£3,500 per year is much less impressive sounding if a comparable private sector role pays c£3,500+ more per year.
Can you explain what you mean by the "the Public's taxed payment into that Pot"?
(edited 3 weeks ago)
Original post by AMac86
There are two main types of pension schemes, defined benefit and defined contribution. Defined contribution are what most private sector pensions are today, defined benefit are very rare today in the private sector but still very common in the public sector - the NHS pension scheme is a defined benefit scheme.
Defined contribution works by you [and your employer] contributing money to an individual pension pot thats yours - the funds are invested and when you reach pensionable age whatever's in the pot + the investment proceeds are used to then pay your pension, based solely on how your specific individual pot has grown.
Defined benefit works differently. Each year you accrue in the scheme gives you a right to a future % of your pay to be paid when you reach pensionable age - typical rates are about 1/60th (ie. work a year, you gain a right to have 1/60th of your annual salary paid out each year as your pension at pensionable age. There is no individual pot of contributions allocated to you, yours + employers contributions are paid to fund the scheme as a whole to meet all future liabilities, irrespective of investment performance.
Re your comment of "absolute nonsense" - I think you've misunderstood, I wasn't claiming the NHS doesn't have a tired system of pay, my point was that within the bands of that tiered system, private sector roles of comparable seniority often pay more and the disparity increases the more senior you become.
On the final point - again I think you've misunderstood, I already stated above that a pension forms a part of your total compensation and its a great benefit, but you have to factor in that you don't get the extra pensionable pay now, you get in the future. Great for sure, but rights to a pension in 20-40 years time doesn't help a person starting out in early years of their career fund your day to day living costs or save for a house deposit now. Ditto a deferred benefit of (to use your example) of c£3,500 per year is much less impressive sounding if a comparable private sector role pays c£3,500+ more per year.
Can you explain what you mean by the "the Public's taxed payment into that Pot"?
Defined contribution works by you [and your employer] contributing money to an individual pension pot thats yours - the funds are invested and when you reach pensionable age whatever's in the pot + the investment proceeds are used to then pay your pension, based solely on how your specific individual pot has grown.
Defined benefit works differently. Each year you accrue in the scheme gives you a right to a future % of your pay to be paid when you reach pensionable age - typical rates are about 1/60th (ie. work a year, you gain a right to have 1/60th of your annual salary paid out each year as your pension at pensionable age. There is no individual pot of contributions allocated to you, yours + employers contributions are paid to fund the scheme as a whole to meet all future liabilities, irrespective of investment performance.
Re your comment of "absolute nonsense" - I think you've misunderstood, I wasn't claiming the NHS doesn't have a tired system of pay, my point was that within the bands of that tiered system, private sector roles of comparable seniority often pay more and the disparity increases the more senior you become.
On the final point - again I think you've misunderstood, I already stated above that a pension forms a part of your total compensation and its a great benefit, but you have to factor in that you don't get the extra pensionable pay now, you get in the future. Great for sure, but rights to a pension in 20-40 years time doesn't help a person starting out in early years of their career fund your day to day living costs or save for a house deposit now. Ditto a deferred benefit of (to use your example) of c£3,500 per year is much less impressive sounding if a comparable private sector role pays c£3,500+ more per year.
Can you explain what you mean by the "the Public's taxed payment into that Pot"?
Defined contribution works by you [and your employer] contributing money to an individual pension pot thats yours - the funds are invested and when you reach pensionable age whatever's in the pot + the investment proceeds are used to then pay your pension, based solely on how your specific individual pot has grown.Defined benefit works differently. Each year you accrue in the scheme gives you a right to a future % of your pay to be paid when you reach pensionable age - typical rates are about 1/60th (ie. work a year, you gain a right to have 1/60th of your annual salary paid out each year as your pension at pensionable age. There is no individual pot of contributions allocated to you, yours + employers contributions are paid to fund the scheme as a whole to meet all future liabilities, irrespective of investment performance.
Yes, I am fully aware and clear about this - I meant what has that got to do with anything
my point was that within the bands of that tiered system, private sector roles of comparable seniority often pay more and the disparity increases the more senior you become
They might do in certain private organisations, but it's certainly not the norm - you will find that in my sector, financial services, for example - it's basically the same scaling bands, unless you become CEO, COO, CFO et al.
rights to a pension in 20-40 years time doesn't help a person starting out in early years of their career fund your day to day living costs or save for a house deposit now
See my example: the NHS worker benefits now, as they don't have to pay the additional sums
Ditto a deferred benefit of (to use your example) of c£3,500 per year is much less impressive sounding if a comparable private sector role pays c£3,500+ more per year.
Again, it's not the norm to paid more in the private sector for a 'comparable' role
Can you explain what you mean by the "the Public's taxed payment into that Pot"?
Who pays for the Public Sector Pensions Pot?
This is all by-the-by anyway - don't join up and strike, knowing full-well what you are going to be remunerated...
Your recent post that kicked this latest chain off talked about paying specific employer contributions of 23.7% into employee pension pots. That's not how a DB Scheme works - the NHS pension hasn't changed, and there's no individual pension pots. What has happened is that based on the latest actuarial valuation a scheme shortfall would have been identified which has to be covered (there'd be an identical treatment in the private sector DB schemes)
Re private sector salaries for professional graduate roles - Would you mind sharing the area of financial services that you work in? I'd be amazed if all roles below board level in a large financial services organization were on a similarly flat organizational structure as the NHS, if an experienced financial controller for your company with a large team under them is only being paid c£45k they are being significantly underpaid compared to market rates. - Nursing roles that pay above £43k are senior roles with significant management/leadership responsibilities, 10+ years of experience, often a masters degree too. Based on the comparable professional graduate sectors I know well, (law and accounting), people reach a salary of that level much sooner and management/leadership positions pay substantially more.
Again - I'm not sure you are following, the nature of pension payments almost by definition means you don't benefit now because it's deferred compensation - you get it later, not now. A NHS pension is a fantastic benefit, but it doesn't help you now if you have short-medium term financial concerns. A higher headline salary in the private sector does give you that choice and there's no compulsion to pay high levels of your salary into a pension - you can pay it into a SIPP for the long term, or you can use it for shorter term spending/saving. Conversely you can't ask for your NHS pension to be given to you as cash now.
Who pays for the Public Sector Pensions Pot?
The government, from tax revenues - I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here? Your earlier post seemed to suggest that because public pensions were government funded this then created an additional tax relief/increases in pension benefits for the recipients, it doesn't so it'd be useful if you could explain a bit more what you were thinking here.
This is all by-the-by anyway - don't join up and strike, knowing full-well what you are going to be remunerated...
Nurses pay has been eroded in real terms so the deal is much worse than it used to be, that's the whole point. In the private sector you usually have a choice of moving to another employer if you don't like your pay or working conditions. The NHS doesn't work like that and separate trusts can't set their own pay - they are fixed to NHS Pay scales so other than moving abroad (which understandably nurses in their 30s-40s with established home lives in the UK don't want to do), industrial action and bargaining is the main tool that you have.
Re private sector salaries for professional graduate roles - Would you mind sharing the area of financial services that you work in? I'd be amazed if all roles below board level in a large financial services organization were on a similarly flat organizational structure as the NHS, if an experienced financial controller for your company with a large team under them is only being paid c£45k they are being significantly underpaid compared to market rates. - Nursing roles that pay above £43k are senior roles with significant management/leadership responsibilities, 10+ years of experience, often a masters degree too. Based on the comparable professional graduate sectors I know well, (law and accounting), people reach a salary of that level much sooner and management/leadership positions pay substantially more.
Again - I'm not sure you are following, the nature of pension payments almost by definition means you don't benefit now because it's deferred compensation - you get it later, not now. A NHS pension is a fantastic benefit, but it doesn't help you now if you have short-medium term financial concerns. A higher headline salary in the private sector does give you that choice and there's no compulsion to pay high levels of your salary into a pension - you can pay it into a SIPP for the long term, or you can use it for shorter term spending/saving. Conversely you can't ask for your NHS pension to be given to you as cash now.
Who pays for the Public Sector Pensions Pot?
The government, from tax revenues - I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here? Your earlier post seemed to suggest that because public pensions were government funded this then created an additional tax relief/increases in pension benefits for the recipients, it doesn't so it'd be useful if you could explain a bit more what you were thinking here.
This is all by-the-by anyway - don't join up and strike, knowing full-well what you are going to be remunerated...
Nurses pay has been eroded in real terms so the deal is much worse than it used to be, that's the whole point. In the private sector you usually have a choice of moving to another employer if you don't like your pay or working conditions. The NHS doesn't work like that and separate trusts can't set their own pay - they are fixed to NHS Pay scales so other than moving abroad (which understandably nurses in their 30s-40s with established home lives in the UK don't want to do), industrial action and bargaining is the main tool that you have.
Original post by AMac86
Your recent post that kicked this latest chain off talked about paying specific employer contributions of 23.7% into employee pension pots. That's not how a DB Scheme works - the NHS pension hasn't changed, and there's no individual pension pots. What has happened is that based on the latest actuarial valuation a scheme shortfall would have been identified which has to be covered (there'd be an identical treatment in the private sector DB schemes)
Re private sector salaries for professional graduate roles - Would you mind sharing the area of financial services that you work in? I'd be amazed if all roles below board level in a large financial services organization were on a similarly flat organizational structure as the NHS, if an experienced financial controller for your company with a large team under them is only being paid c£45k they are being significantly underpaid compared to market rates. - Nursing roles that pay above £43k are senior roles with significant management/leadership responsibilities, 10+ years of experience, often a masters degree too. Based on the comparable professional graduate sectors I know well, (law and accounting), people reach a salary of that level much sooner and management/leadership positions pay substantially more.
Again - I'm not sure you are following, the nature of pension payments almost by definition means you don't benefit now because it's deferred compensation - you get it later, not now. A NHS pension is a fantastic benefit, but it doesn't help you now if you have short-medium term financial concerns. A higher headline salary in the private sector does give you that choice and there's no compulsion to pay high levels of your salary into a pension - you can pay it into a SIPP for the long term, or you can use it for shorter term spending/saving. Conversely you can't ask for your NHS pension to be given to you as cash now.
Who pays for the Public Sector Pensions Pot?
The government, from tax revenues - I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here? Your earlier post seemed to suggest that because public pensions were government funded this then created an additional tax relief/increases in pension benefits for the recipients, it doesn't so it'd be useful if you could explain a bit more what you were thinking here.
This is all by-the-by anyway - don't join up and strike, knowing full-well what you are going to be remunerated...
Nurses pay has been eroded in real terms so the deal is much worse than it used to be, that's the whole point. In the private sector you usually have a choice of moving to another employer if you don't like your pay or working conditions. The NHS doesn't work like that and separate trusts can't set their own pay - they are fixed to NHS Pay scales so other than moving abroad (which understandably nurses in their 30s-40s with established home lives in the UK don't want to do), industrial action and bargaining is the main tool that you have.
Re private sector salaries for professional graduate roles - Would you mind sharing the area of financial services that you work in? I'd be amazed if all roles below board level in a large financial services organization were on a similarly flat organizational structure as the NHS, if an experienced financial controller for your company with a large team under them is only being paid c£45k they are being significantly underpaid compared to market rates. - Nursing roles that pay above £43k are senior roles with significant management/leadership responsibilities, 10+ years of experience, often a masters degree too. Based on the comparable professional graduate sectors I know well, (law and accounting), people reach a salary of that level much sooner and management/leadership positions pay substantially more.
Again - I'm not sure you are following, the nature of pension payments almost by definition means you don't benefit now because it's deferred compensation - you get it later, not now. A NHS pension is a fantastic benefit, but it doesn't help you now if you have short-medium term financial concerns. A higher headline salary in the private sector does give you that choice and there's no compulsion to pay high levels of your salary into a pension - you can pay it into a SIPP for the long term, or you can use it for shorter term spending/saving. Conversely you can't ask for your NHS pension to be given to you as cash now.
Who pays for the Public Sector Pensions Pot?
The government, from tax revenues - I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here? Your earlier post seemed to suggest that because public pensions were government funded this then created an additional tax relief/increases in pension benefits for the recipients, it doesn't so it'd be useful if you could explain a bit more what you were thinking here.
This is all by-the-by anyway - don't join up and strike, knowing full-well what you are going to be remunerated...
Nurses pay has been eroded in real terms so the deal is much worse than it used to be, that's the whole point. In the private sector you usually have a choice of moving to another employer if you don't like your pay or working conditions. The NHS doesn't work like that and separate trusts can't set their own pay - they are fixed to NHS Pay scales so other than moving abroad (which understandably nurses in their 30s-40s with established home lives in the UK don't want to do), industrial action and bargaining is the main tool that you have.
Your recent post that kicked this latest chain off talked about paying specific employer contributions of 23.7% into employee pension pots. That's not how a DB Scheme works - the NHS pension hasn't changed, and there's no individual pension pots. What has happened is that based on the latest actuarial valuation a scheme shortfall would have been identified which has to be covered (there'd be an identical treatment in the private sector DB schemes)
Your point being what?
Re private sector salaries for professional graduate roles - Would you mind sharing the area of financial services that you work in? I'd be amazed if all roles below board level in a large financial services organization were on a similarly flat organizational structure as the NHS, if an experienced financial controller for your company with a large team under them is only being paid c£45k they are being significantly underpaid compared to market rates. - Nursing roles that pay above £43k are senior roles with significant management/leadership responsibilities, 10+ years of experience, often a masters degree too. Based on the comparable professional graduate sectors I know well, (law and accounting), people reach a salary of that level much sooner and management/leadership positions pay substantially more
You cannot possibly know all Private Sector payscales - you mention Law and Accounting: this is truly laughable if you think these equate to NHS Workers and their respective study/qualifications
A NHS pension is a fantastic benefit, but it doesn't help you now if you have short-medium term financial concerns. A higher headline salary in the private sector does give you that choice and there's no compulsion to pay high levels of your salary into a pension - you can pay it into a SIPP for the long term, or you can use it for shorter term spending/saving. Conversely you can't ask for your NHS pension to be given to you as cash now
'Higher headline Salary' - where do you get this from?
The majority of other working people in the UK have issues with affording a deposit/short-term concerns
Who pays for the Public Sector Pensions Pot?The government, from tax revenues
From us, the taxpayer, dearie me!
Nurses pay has been eroded in real terms so the deal is much worse than it used to be, that's the whole point. In the private sector you usually have a choice of moving to another employer if you don't like your pay or working conditions
So, don't sign-up then!
(edited 3 weeks ago)
We pay for the NHS via taxes
Don't join the sector and then strike & moan the next day, knowing full-well what you are getting
The fact is the majority of nurses didn't vote for the strikes, are you aware of this?
Do you think the moaning train workers have the right to strike as well?
Don't join the sector and then strike & moan the next day, knowing full-well what you are getting
The fact is the majority of nurses didn't vote for the strikes, are you aware of this?
Do you think the moaning train workers have the right to strike as well?
Your point being what?
From your posts it wasn't clear that you understood how DB scheme benefits were calculated and funded so I was explaining how it worked.
You cannot possibly know all Private Sector payscales - you mention Law and Accounting: this is truly laughable if you think these equate to NHS Workers and their respective study/qualifications
I absolutely don't know all private sector payscales, what I do have is a reasonable understanding of professional graduate salaries in a couple of sectors (from various friends, colleagues and my partner) and how NHS nursing payscales compare. I don't think it's laughable to contrast higher pay in other professional graduate careers like law and accounting to nursing, why do you think it is?
'Higher headline Salary' - where do you get this from? The majority of other working people in the UK have issues with affording a deposit/short-term concerns
I covered this above - professional graduate careers in the private sector tend to pay more than a career in nursing, particularly as you become more senior and the disparity widens. Absolutely agree that lots of people struggle with short term financial needs, and that would be worse if a person in the private sector was given a DB pension accrual in exchange for a correspondingly lower amount of pay.
From us, the taxpayer, dearie me!
I think everyone on this thread understands that tax revenues come from taxes which taxpayers pay - that's how public services are funded unless we levy charges.
So, don't sign-up then!
That's the problem - the NHS is losing staff (particularly those experienced staff that form the engine room of any team) and finds it difficult to recruit. I explained above how the NHS is the (near) monopoly employer in the UK so collective bargaining and industrial action is how you negotiate your pay and working conditions when talks fail. It's different in the private sector where you usually have a large choice of other employers to work for.
We pay for the NHS via taxesDon't join the sector and then strike & moan the next day, knowing full-well what you are gettingThe fact is the majority of nurses didn't vote for the strikes, are you aware of this?Do you think the moaning train workers have the right to strike as well?
Agreed we pay for the NHS via taxation and I don't think that's in dispute. Nurses are not joining and striking the next day, they'll be nurses voting to strike with many years of experience who feel the real terms pay cut doesn't reflect the demands and responsibilities of the job. I've covered the next point a number of times - Unlike the roles you and I have in the private sector, when you have a near monopoly employer, striking is ultimately an action you can take to try and improve your working conditions because there isn't anywhere near the same ability to move to an employer paying higher salaries - because of the defined NHS payscales - trusts can't diverge from this.
This is a thread about Nursing pay and conditions, train drivers can strike provided they follow the processes set out in law just like any unionized employee. Working shifts and weekends as a train driver and being responsible for 400+ tonnes of fast moving heavy machinery with hundreds of lives on the line if you get it wrong doesn't sound particularly easy
From your posts it wasn't clear that you understood how DB scheme benefits were calculated and funded so I was explaining how it worked.
You cannot possibly know all Private Sector payscales - you mention Law and Accounting: this is truly laughable if you think these equate to NHS Workers and their respective study/qualifications
I absolutely don't know all private sector payscales, what I do have is a reasonable understanding of professional graduate salaries in a couple of sectors (from various friends, colleagues and my partner) and how NHS nursing payscales compare. I don't think it's laughable to contrast higher pay in other professional graduate careers like law and accounting to nursing, why do you think it is?
'Higher headline Salary' - where do you get this from? The majority of other working people in the UK have issues with affording a deposit/short-term concerns
I covered this above - professional graduate careers in the private sector tend to pay more than a career in nursing, particularly as you become more senior and the disparity widens. Absolutely agree that lots of people struggle with short term financial needs, and that would be worse if a person in the private sector was given a DB pension accrual in exchange for a correspondingly lower amount of pay.
From us, the taxpayer, dearie me!
I think everyone on this thread understands that tax revenues come from taxes which taxpayers pay - that's how public services are funded unless we levy charges.
So, don't sign-up then!
That's the problem - the NHS is losing staff (particularly those experienced staff that form the engine room of any team) and finds it difficult to recruit. I explained above how the NHS is the (near) monopoly employer in the UK so collective bargaining and industrial action is how you negotiate your pay and working conditions when talks fail. It's different in the private sector where you usually have a large choice of other employers to work for.
We pay for the NHS via taxesDon't join the sector and then strike & moan the next day, knowing full-well what you are gettingThe fact is the majority of nurses didn't vote for the strikes, are you aware of this?Do you think the moaning train workers have the right to strike as well?
Agreed we pay for the NHS via taxation and I don't think that's in dispute. Nurses are not joining and striking the next day, they'll be nurses voting to strike with many years of experience who feel the real terms pay cut doesn't reflect the demands and responsibilities of the job. I've covered the next point a number of times - Unlike the roles you and I have in the private sector, when you have a near monopoly employer, striking is ultimately an action you can take to try and improve your working conditions because there isn't anywhere near the same ability to move to an employer paying higher salaries - because of the defined NHS payscales - trusts can't diverge from this.
This is a thread about Nursing pay and conditions, train drivers can strike provided they follow the processes set out in law just like any unionized employee. Working shifts and weekends as a train driver and being responsible for 400+ tonnes of fast moving heavy machinery with hundreds of lives on the line if you get it wrong doesn't sound particularly easy
Original post by AMac86
Your point being what?
From your posts it wasn't clear that you understood how DB scheme benefits were calculated and funded so I was explaining how it worked.
You cannot possibly know all Private Sector payscales - you mention Law and Accounting: this is truly laughable if you think these equate to NHS Workers and their respective study/qualifications
I absolutely don't know all private sector payscales, what I do have is a reasonable understanding of professional graduate salaries in a couple of sectors (from various friends, colleagues and my partner) and how NHS nursing payscales compare. I don't think it's laughable to contrast higher pay in other professional graduate careers like law and accounting to nursing, why do you think it is?
'Higher headline Salary' - where do you get this from? The majority of other working people in the UK have issues with affording a deposit/short-term concerns
I covered this above - professional graduate careers in the private sector tend to pay more than a career in nursing, particularly as you become more senior and the disparity widens. Absolutely agree that lots of people struggle with short term financial needs, and that would be worse if a person in the private sector was given a DB pension accrual in exchange for a correspondingly lower amount of pay.
From us, the taxpayer, dearie me!
I think everyone on this thread understands that tax revenues come from taxes which taxpayers pay - that's how public services are funded unless we levy charges.
So, don't sign-up then!
That's the problem - the NHS is losing staff (particularly those experienced staff that form the engine room of any team) and finds it difficult to recruit. I explained above how the NHS is the (near) monopoly employer in the UK so collective bargaining and industrial action is how you negotiate your pay and working conditions when talks fail. It's different in the private sector where you usually have a large choice of other employers to work for.
We pay for the NHS via taxesDon't join the sector and then strike & moan the next day, knowing full-well what you are gettingThe fact is the majority of nurses didn't vote for the strikes, are you aware of this?Do you think the moaning train workers have the right to strike as well?
Agreed we pay for the NHS via taxation and I don't think that's in dispute. Nurses are not joining and striking the next day, they'll be nurses voting to strike with many years of experience who feel the real terms pay cut doesn't reflect the demands and responsibilities of the job. I've covered the next point a number of times - Unlike the roles you and I have in the private sector, when you have a near monopoly employer, striking is ultimately an action you can take to try and improve your working conditions because there isn't anywhere near the same ability to move to an employer paying higher salaries - because of the defined NHS payscales - trusts can't diverge from this.
This is a thread about Nursing pay and conditions, train drivers can strike provided they follow the processes set out in law just like any unionized employee. Working shifts and weekends as a train driver and being responsible for 400+ tonnes of fast moving heavy machinery with hundreds of lives on the line if you get it wrong doesn't sound particularly easy
From your posts it wasn't clear that you understood how DB scheme benefits were calculated and funded so I was explaining how it worked.
You cannot possibly know all Private Sector payscales - you mention Law and Accounting: this is truly laughable if you think these equate to NHS Workers and their respective study/qualifications
I absolutely don't know all private sector payscales, what I do have is a reasonable understanding of professional graduate salaries in a couple of sectors (from various friends, colleagues and my partner) and how NHS nursing payscales compare. I don't think it's laughable to contrast higher pay in other professional graduate careers like law and accounting to nursing, why do you think it is?
'Higher headline Salary' - where do you get this from? The majority of other working people in the UK have issues with affording a deposit/short-term concerns
I covered this above - professional graduate careers in the private sector tend to pay more than a career in nursing, particularly as you become more senior and the disparity widens. Absolutely agree that lots of people struggle with short term financial needs, and that would be worse if a person in the private sector was given a DB pension accrual in exchange for a correspondingly lower amount of pay.
From us, the taxpayer, dearie me!
I think everyone on this thread understands that tax revenues come from taxes which taxpayers pay - that's how public services are funded unless we levy charges.
So, don't sign-up then!
That's the problem - the NHS is losing staff (particularly those experienced staff that form the engine room of any team) and finds it difficult to recruit. I explained above how the NHS is the (near) monopoly employer in the UK so collective bargaining and industrial action is how you negotiate your pay and working conditions when talks fail. It's different in the private sector where you usually have a large choice of other employers to work for.
We pay for the NHS via taxesDon't join the sector and then strike & moan the next day, knowing full-well what you are gettingThe fact is the majority of nurses didn't vote for the strikes, are you aware of this?Do you think the moaning train workers have the right to strike as well?
Agreed we pay for the NHS via taxation and I don't think that's in dispute. Nurses are not joining and striking the next day, they'll be nurses voting to strike with many years of experience who feel the real terms pay cut doesn't reflect the demands and responsibilities of the job. I've covered the next point a number of times - Unlike the roles you and I have in the private sector, when you have a near monopoly employer, striking is ultimately an action you can take to try and improve your working conditions because there isn't anywhere near the same ability to move to an employer paying higher salaries - because of the defined NHS payscales - trusts can't diverge from this.
This is a thread about Nursing pay and conditions, train drivers can strike provided they follow the processes set out in law just like any unionized employee. Working shifts and weekends as a train driver and being responsible for 400+ tonnes of fast moving heavy machinery with hundreds of lives on the line if you get it wrong doesn't sound particularly easy
Working shifts and weekends as a train driver and being responsible for 400+ tonnes of fast moving heavy machinery with hundreds of lives on the line if you get it wrong doesn't sound particularly easy
No automation in train driving, is there - it's not Danger Money
A NHS pension is a fantastic benefit, but it doesn't help you now if you have short-medium term financial concerns
A higher headline salary in the private sector does give you that choice and there's no compulsion to pay high levels of your salary into a pension - you can pay it into a SIPP for the long term, or you can use it for shorter term spending/saving.
Conversely you can't ask for your NHS pension to be given to you as cash now.
Key Workers top the list of priority for councils and can receive between 30%-50% discount on their first home
(edited 2 weeks ago)
It would be helpful if you just did a bit more research before posting one-liners in the way that you're doing.
A quick google shows there's very little automation in train driving. Elements of the role are less mechanical than before - technology has created efficiencies in elements of all roles (in exactly the same way that computers and technology means my office job doesn't involve hand written letters or using mechanical abacuses). Being a train driver involves taking a big responsibility for the safe operation of the train - that could mean hundreds of peoples lives at stake, or millions of pounds-worth of freight. Elements of the pay reflect that responsibility.
Anyway this is all a sidetrack - how the railway industry manages technology and driver responsibility isn't relevant to nurses pay and NHS recruitment difficulties.
Key-workers can be prioritized by councils absolutely, that's pretty important if you struggling to provide education or healthcare services locally. That doesn't mean they will "top" priority lists, or that every council will take that approach. - this all feeds into the points I've covered at length earlier on this thread that public sector pay is set against national payscales, and local services don't have the same ability as the private sector to simply de-camp and leave an area of the country.
An incredibly (just over a thousand) small number of homes have been built under the scheme you're referencing (it's called "First Homes"). There are various restrictions on eligibility for those few properties that have been built, restrictions on who you can sell the property to in the future (other key workers only), and any discount received has to be passed onto the next buyer
A quick google shows there's very little automation in train driving. Elements of the role are less mechanical than before - technology has created efficiencies in elements of all roles (in exactly the same way that computers and technology means my office job doesn't involve hand written letters or using mechanical abacuses). Being a train driver involves taking a big responsibility for the safe operation of the train - that could mean hundreds of peoples lives at stake, or millions of pounds-worth of freight. Elements of the pay reflect that responsibility.
Anyway this is all a sidetrack - how the railway industry manages technology and driver responsibility isn't relevant to nurses pay and NHS recruitment difficulties.
Key-workers can be prioritized by councils absolutely, that's pretty important if you struggling to provide education or healthcare services locally. That doesn't mean they will "top" priority lists, or that every council will take that approach. - this all feeds into the points I've covered at length earlier on this thread that public sector pay is set against national payscales, and local services don't have the same ability as the private sector to simply de-camp and leave an area of the country.
An incredibly (just over a thousand) small number of homes have been built under the scheme you're referencing (it's called "First Homes"). There are various restrictions on eligibility for those few properties that have been built, restrictions on who you can sell the property to in the future (other key workers only), and any discount received has to be passed onto the next buyer
(edited 2 weeks ago)
Original post by AMac86
It would be helpful if you just did a bit more research before posting one-liners in the way that you're doing.
A quick google shows there's very little automation in train driving. Elements of the role are less mechanical than before - technology has created efficiencies in elements of all roles (in exactly the same way that computers and technology means my office job doesn't involve hand written letters or using mechanical abacuses). Being a train driver involves taking a big responsibility for the safe operation of the train - that could mean hundreds of peoples lives at stake, or millions of pounds-worth of freight. Elements of the pay reflect that responsibility.
Anyway this is all a sidetrack - how the railway industry manages technology and driver responsibility isn't relevant to nurses pay and NHS recruitment difficulties.
Key-workers can be prioritized by councils absolutely, that's pretty important if you struggling to provide education or healthcare services locally. That doesn't mean they will "top" priority lists, or that every council will take that approach. - this all feeds into the points I've covered at length earlier on this thread that public sector pay is set against national payscales, and local services don't have the same ability as the private sector to simply de-camp and leave an area of the country.
An incredibly (just over a thousand) small number of homes have been built under the scheme you're referencing (it's called "First Homes"). There are various restrictions on eligibility for those few properties that have been built, restrictions on who you can sell the property to in the future (other key workers only), and any discount received has to be passed onto the next buyer
A quick google shows there's very little automation in train driving. Elements of the role are less mechanical than before - technology has created efficiencies in elements of all roles (in exactly the same way that computers and technology means my office job doesn't involve hand written letters or using mechanical abacuses). Being a train driver involves taking a big responsibility for the safe operation of the train - that could mean hundreds of peoples lives at stake, or millions of pounds-worth of freight. Elements of the pay reflect that responsibility.
Anyway this is all a sidetrack - how the railway industry manages technology and driver responsibility isn't relevant to nurses pay and NHS recruitment difficulties.
Key-workers can be prioritized by councils absolutely, that's pretty important if you struggling to provide education or healthcare services locally. That doesn't mean they will "top" priority lists, or that every council will take that approach. - this all feeds into the points I've covered at length earlier on this thread that public sector pay is set against national payscales, and local services don't have the same ability as the private sector to simply de-camp and leave an area of the country.
An incredibly (just over a thousand) small number of homes have been built under the scheme you're referencing (it's called "First Homes"). There are various restrictions on eligibility for those few properties that have been built, restrictions on who you can sell the property to in the future (other key workers only), and any discount received has to be passed onto the next buyer
Did you read my previous statistic re. the majority of nurses didn't want to strike? What is your response to that?
Original post by milosovich
Did you read my previous statistic re. the majority of nurses didn't want to strike? What is your response to that?
Again, i would *please* encourage you to just think and research a bit more before you post.
The thresholds of voting members required to take legal strike action in the UK is quite a high one. Within the nursing population as a whole you'll have nurses who might not be politically engaged with their union (ie. the apathetic), those who want to strike but couldn't take the loss in pay for strike days, and no-doubt some who don't feel pay levels warrant strike action.
I think you're referring to the final strike ballot which narrowly failed to pass, previous ballots had authorised periods of strike action. Whether there's an actual majority or not - where you have a profession of workers in a core public delivery service with anywhere between 35-50% being incredibly dissatisfied with their working conditions to the point of strike action (that "pay to stress" ratio again) - nursing vacancies in the NHS currently stand at around 45000. That's the problem - when pay isn't high enough to recruit the people you need to run the service (again see previous posts) - you have a big problem.
(edited 1 day ago)
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