how could anyone be pro-israel?

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Reply 60

BlueEyesHypnotiz

I am PRO ISRAEL

Reply 61

Ambitious1999

Original post by Anonymous

so i am not palestinian but i would define myself as pro-palestine. i feel as if i have educated myself widely enough to understand what is happening in gaza currently and what has been happening for years. i will not explain what is happening as that would stray away from why i made this discussion. the reason i made this discussion is because i've been seeing alot of celebrities or people with a wide platform staying silent to this issue or posting 'praying for israel' on their social media platforms. and i genuinely sat down on my desk and thought... 'am i missing something here?' how could someone be pro-israel, i'd like an explanation. i understand this issue has been happening for years, way before i was born, but people are using the hamas as an excuse to victimise israel. what did people expect? palestine was just going sit back, relax and allow their people to be killed and ethnically cleansed? anyways, could someone explain to me why anyone would be pro-israel?

I’m not going to take sides. Both sides have committed atrocities. But what I will say is there are lots of territorial disputes and unjust occupations that few people seem to get upset about. The Chinese occupation of Tibet and Xinjiang, the Indonesian occupation of West Papua, Kashmir, Muslims in Myanmar etc. But that’s ok apparently! However when it’s Jewish people that are doing it everyone gets upset. It all comes down to the 2000 year old antisemitism. Sure support the rights of Palestinians but how about showing equal support for Tibetans, Papuans or the Muslims in Myanmar who have also suffered terribly.

Reply 62

hotpud

Original post by Ambitious1999

Fair point. Perhaps it is the fact that it is close to home, the UK has an interest because we screwed it all up in the first place and the fact that large communities of people and their supporters on either side also live in the UK?

I take your point about Myanmar, Indonesia and China but to most people in the UK, they might as well be on a different planet.

People are like that. They are only interested in climate change when it floods their house.

(edited 5 months ago)

Reply 63

Djtoodles

Original post by Admit-One

Rubbish answer.

You keep conflating an enemy with a civilian population. Fuel is not bullets. Water is not bullets. Working hospitals are not bullets.

Do you find civilian losses to be acceptable collateral damage?

You cannot separate them and the two while distinct are linked. You cannot separate the two in the way you would like.

You need more than bullets to fight a war with fuel and water being of great importance.

Are civilian casualties acceptable, yes, no, maybe, it’s a very immaterial question to ask, because no matter the answer, war has and always will result in civilian casualties.

Your comment which I’m sure comes from a well intentioned position also demonstrates a lack of understanding in how wars are waged and the realities of war.

Reply 64

Admit-One

Universities Forum Helper

Original post by Djtoodles

Your comment which I’m sure comes from a well intentioned position also demonstrates a lack of understanding in how wars are waged and the realities of war.

Ditto.

Reply 65

Djtoodles

Original post by Admit-One

Ditto.

I don’t really know what that’s supposed to mean, I assume it means you think I don’t know anything about military operations but I’d really loves to know which part you take issue with; just give me one example of a war which hasn’t resulted in civilian casualties, or a war in which an army hasn’t needed fuel and water lol. I can wait. It’s a pretty rubbish response from you tbh, which is ironic considering your original comment I replied to.

Reply 66

hibyehereforasec

Original post by da_nolo

Hammas did all that to Isreal. Is Hammas punishing Isreal?

Otherwise no. Bombing locations where your enemy is located is not evidence for punishment.

To say isreal goes back to everyday life is short side of blind. They live everyday knowing some rocket is going to fly over head. People are known to walk with guards so they dont get stabbed from hammas terrorists. They living in fear and tiredness just the same.

ahahahahabahabahab this is the funniest shi ive read ever bro u think this ur mad bahahabaha

Reply 67

Shansai

Original post by Anonymous

because ( i assume) Israel has been a victim of islamist terrorist atrocity as many other countries have over the years, andso hamas action has been in complete detriment to the Palestinians cause

but like in the rest of the islamic world, regular muslims fear to stand up to islamists, and they have always held the balance of power and dictated the trends.

Israel can now use this excuse to commit attrocities of its own in gaza.

Reply 68

da_nolo

Original post by hotpud

With respect, I think you are missing the issue. Gaza is one of the most repressed places on earth. The people who live there are not free to go about their business like you and I. There are no ports despite it being on the sea because Israel will not permit access by sea. Nor is there an airport or there was one once but this was destroyed by Israel. And the whole territory is surrounded by a fence forcing those who live in Gaza to be limited to a small strip of land. Inside Gaza there is limited water, food and fuel, limited healthcare and few prospects. The people who live there are effectively caged animals.

And you wonder why they behave like animals? To an extent, Israel get what they deserve. If you treat your neighbours badly you should not be surprised if they treat you equally badly. We are no at a stage of the conflict where Israel have killed vastly more Palestinians than Israelis were killed. If those in power in Israel believe in an eye for an eye, they have taken a leg and an ear.

Israel hold all the power. They have control of the land, the sea and the air. They could sort this whole mess out in an instance by accepting Palestine as a state, giving the people of Gaza an identity and making life liveable for them. And in one moment they would take away any military cause or objective from the likes of Hamas. You can't want the end of someone who gives you good things. Its not going to happen, but nor is this sorry mess until Israel makes a concession. And they have to make a concession because they hold all the cards. Hamas and the Gazan's have nothing to lose. They have nothing to start with. They have no freedom and no hope and when your opposition is in that state you had better be in for something pretty grim.

I understand the sentiment if things are as you say. however that does not always appear so. Israel does not hold all the cards.
as have tried to suggest. there was an argument that addresses all points made, in my opinion. I would appreciate a response

putting in spoiler changes the paste, so I will leave it untouched to preserve readability.

Before even discussing the reasons said by others (which are pretty severe to begin with), the Hamas charter itself speaks volumes about why Hamas does the horrors we have seen (raping babies, shooting kids in front of their mother, etc.), along with countless other acts of terror.
(Full text avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp)

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)

The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.' (Article 7)

The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.' (Article 15)

Ranks will close, fighters joining other fighters, and masses everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to thecall of duty, loudly proclaiming: 'Hail to Jihad!

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... are no more thana means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of&nbsp; Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad.' (Articl 13);' :eek:

The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money, they took control of the world media;

They stood behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the revolutions we hear about... They stood behind World War I ...and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them having their finger in it.' (Article 22)

Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion. (Article 32)

This is the source of the saying 'From the River to the Sea'. As we shall see later, the people protesting think that it means resistance to Israeli terror, but it means religious death.

The HAMA"S regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews.'(Article 32)

Already we see that the actions of Hamas have nothing to do with being free from the Jewish STATE, rather they wish to be free of JEWS. This is apparent from the several calls they make from the Hamas manifesto to all arabs around the world to murder jews.

This makes a separation from the people defending the Gazans right to freedom, and Hamas. People constantly equate the Gazan civilians and Hamas (as well as the people in charge of the PLO, which we will get to shortly), which is mistaken. Hamas does not represent freedom-seeking arabs.

Point 1: We can see from the get-go that the actions of Hamas here were not to get peace and prosperity in Gaza, not to build infrastructure, and not to receive an Arab state (in the conventional sense), rather it was to see a LACK OF A JEWISH STATE. (Please refer below for a response for those claims.)

Now to address the claims of people BESIDES Hamas, like the western Media who claim that Hamas is doing this as a RESULT of decades of oppression from the Israeli Government, we must go into the history of this land for the Past couple thousand years.

HISTORICAL RIGHTS TO THE LAND/ISRAEL STOLE IT

I really don't understand how people say that the arabs were on the land of Palestine first. Disregarding the fact that "Palestine" as a people is a mixture of immigrants from Mongolia, Russia, Turkey, Armenia, Arab Countries surrounding it etc., and also they only immigrated a couple of decades before 1948, where is the claim that the Palestinians were there first substantiated?

Point 2: History acknowledges that Jews historically had the land of israel from either Joshua (1400 BC) or at least the kingdom of David (c. 1000 BC). There were 2 temples on Jewish land. Roman exile (around 70 CE) gave the name Palestine from the Philistines, and Islam was started over 600 years later.<

The Al-aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem is nowhere near the one Mentioned in the Qur'an, and even if it was Muhammed certainly didn't visit it since it was built in 682 (he died around 632).

2. JEWS DIDN'T GIVE ENOUGH LAND/PREVENTED AN ARAB STATE (PLEASE READ)

This is simply preposterous. In 1917 the Balfour Declaration promised the Jews present-day Israel and Jordan, Called the Mandate of Palestine. in 1920, Arabs began the Nebi Mussah pogroms out of anger, which prompted the British to say in 1922 that Trans-Jordan would be made an Arab state. In 1937 the Peel Commission (headed by Lord William Peel) suggested that Jews give up everything besides the coast of israel, and some territory up north.

This was rejected. in may of 1964 the PLO was founded by arabs (who still had control of the Gaza strip and the west bank), which was made solely to call for the destruction of Israel as a state. in 1967 the Khartoum Resolution was published by the Fourth Arab Summit, which included the Three No's: No peace, No recognition of Israel, and No negotiations with Israel.

This prompted the 6-day war, where it beat 7 countries in a week. They got back lots of land back from that war.

In 1973 there were more unprompted wars. in 1979, the Sinai was given back to egypt. in 1993 the Oslo accords promised steps to a Palestinian State, with several concessions given. In 2000, Ehud Barak offered Yasser Arafat over 90% control over the west bank, among other concessions. Without a counter-offer, Arafat walked away and started the Second intifada The list keeps going on and on.

Balfour Dec:https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/balfour.asp\

Arab Pogroms<br></div><div>https://www.historycentral.com/Israel/1920ArabRiotsYaffo.html<br></div><div>Peel

Commission
<div>https://embassies.gov.il/MFA/AboutIs...e%20government.

https://justvision.org/glossary/palestine-liberation-organization-plo<br></div><div>Khartoum

https://www.sixdaywar.org/immediate-...s-of-khartoum/

Oslo Accords
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords

Second Intifada
https://www.britannica.com/event/sec...n%203%20to%201.

Point 3: Arabs have walked away from every single attempt to make an independent Arab State, so There cannot be any blame on the Jews for not giving up/stealing land from the Arabs.

3. GAZA IS OCCUPIED TERRITORY, UNFAIRLY OPPRESSED

Again, ridiculous, based off the fact that Gaza was abandoned by Israel. THERE WERE NO BLOCKADES UNTIL HAMAS GOT POWER IN 2007. The only reason why it is blockaded now is because Israel was trying to prevent something like the previous week from happening, which apparently did not work.

Point 4. Do not blame israel for the oppressive conditions in Gaza. Israel left the Gaza Strip in 2007, and most of the aid that Hamas has received from other countries was used for military equipment (https://themedialine.org/top-stories...gled-material/), and there are videos right now that show Hamas ripping up water pipes from underground to make rockets.

Also, Israel is not the only one blockading Gaza, Egypt also put up a concrete wall to stop Gazan Migrants/Hamas Operatives from entering.

4. ISRAEL EXPELLED ALL PALESTINIAN ARAB MEMBERS FROM PALESTINE AFTER 1948

We Appeal - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.

Israeli Declaration of Independence

Arab military radio stations 'ordered' arabs to have a mass exodus from israel, and over 200,000 arabs left even before there was a war (https://www.jstor.org/stable/2536126, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes..._organizations)

Notice that no other arab countries took any of the refugees displaced by the war, something which oddly no one seems to care about.

Point 4: Israel did not expel all arabs from Palestine as a result of making the state. At most, arabs were displaced from the war waged by up to 7 other arab countries at a time. if not for these unprovoked wars, much less arabs would have been displaced. Furthermore, Arabs since the beginning have enjoyed full citizenry in israel, even having representatives in gov't. This disproves the Apartheid theory (look up the definition of Apartheid.)

Bearing all this in mind, hopefully we now realize that claims which are made that Gaza was "Building up from years of resentment, decolonizing, etc.," or maybe even that Hamas was "Only a resistance movement" are now completely untrue. This makes the idea of Israeli retaliation much more feasible.

To discuss the concept of a human shield and proportionate response, I really don't understand the current Opposition's stance. Throughout world history, and indeed in common sense, once an act of aggression is done towards a country, that country will respond in the way it deems fit. I have heard people say that the US should not have started the Afghan war after 9/11, because there were civilian casualties.

This means that Germany shouldn't have been attacked because of the civilians, Japan shouldn't have gotten 2 nuclear bombs after Pearl Harbor, and many other examples of retaliation that NO ONE IS PROTESTING ABOUT.

To put it precisely, If you aim a missile at me from you kitchen behind your baby, i will kill your baby to defend myself. Furthermore, do not blame me for putting the baby in harm's way. If Hamas did not have their military operations near hospitals and schools and civilians, the IDF would not be shooting at them.

Also, even if there were to be an argument for unnecessary civilian death, why is no one blaming hamas for putting their operations there? why is all the blame on israel? this shows something.
....................end transcript.

Reply 69

da_nolo

Original post by hibyehereforasec

ahahahahabahabahab this is the funniest shi ive read ever bro u think this ur mad bahahabaha

Im asking a question that has yet been answered. I do not assume another's answer or thoughts.

Reply 70

da_nolo

Original post by Stiff Little Fingers

Blockading power and water, causing hospitals to to struggle to keep life support on and have to perform surgery in unhygienic conditions, while people suffer dehydration, would be collective punishment genius. Just because you've dehumanised Palestinians so much that you think that the human rights abuses committed by Israel are fine (because they're not done to humans), doesn't mean that they actually are acceptable

.I have not dehumanized anyone. especially palestinians. this is a bizarre strawman.

to show punishment is to show intent. to show intent you need acts that go over and beyond normal acts of war. Israel or anyone can claim collateral damage for a missle targeting hamas. just as the allies did in ww2 (for comparison). instead we need to show where Israel goes out of its way - just as hamas did as they stormed houses - raping and murdering civilians. this we have on tape because hamas recorded themselves.

proving hamas' war crimes is easy. taking any tactical/strategy decision that is visible in all other wars and calling it punishment to civilians or all Palestinians is not believable. please. convince me

(edited 5 months ago)

Reply 71

lifeoftheparty

Original post by Olaoluade

This is how I see it:

This is not a war against Palestinians, it is a war agaisnt terrorism. There is a clear divide between terrorism and religion. When a sect or group hide under the guise of religion to unleash dastardly acts do we excuse their actions? No, it is terrorism. I do not believe this war is out to destroy Palestinians it is out to Stamp out Hamas.
Sept 11 attacks, was the United States at war with Afghanistan? No, the US wanted to send a message that their is no room for terrorism. Al Qaeda was the the target but the group was nestled in a country. Hamas is a sect lodged within the Gaza strip occupied by Palestinians. To recover captives, what should Israel do? That is my question to you. This is not a territorial or ethnic war, it is war on terrorism. My view. If a sect say in France does the exact same thing to citizens in UK what do you think would have happened?
Both groups have been at unrest for years like you mentioned but the attack was inhumane. You asked if the Palestinians fold their arms? I ask, do you approve of the Hamas attack? Maybe you should watch videos and imagine the victims to be your family members, your son, daughter, wife...raped and unborn baby pulled out of her belly and beheaded.
Let's not forget in a hurry, Hamas overthrew a government in 2007. They are wrecking havoc to not just their isreali neighbour's but to Palestinians who oppose them. I am not pro any group and eemain neutral but be objective, clog out religion and ethnicity. The crisis in that region would continue into the foreseeable future. We can only hope.

um this 'conflict' started in 1948 not october 7th just to remind you. (i do condemn h*mas btw but do u condemn israel?)

Reply 72

Quady

Original post by lifeoftheparty

um this 'conflict' started in 1948 not october 7th just to remind you. (i do condemn h*mas btw but do u condemn israel?)

Surely it started circa 483AD

Reply 73

da_nolo

Original post by lifeoftheparty

um this 'conflict' started in 1948 not october 7th just to remind you. (i do condemn h*mas btw but do u condemn israel?)

You distinguish hamas. But do you distinguish Israel's govt./military from Israelis?

Reply 74

lifeoftheparty

Original post by da_nolo

You distinguish hamas. But do you distinguish Israel's govt./military from Israelis?

ofc, when i refer to israel i dont mean an israeli individual i mean the government as a whole.

Reply 75

da_nolo

Original post by lifeoftheparty

ofc, when i refer to israel i dont mean an israeli individual i mean the government as a whole.

Thanks. Hard to tell sometimes. Hamas has some palestinians but not all palestinians act as Hamas does. All Israelis are Israel, however. Where as not all Israeli are I.D.F. - shoot not all I.D.F. make decisions to fire a rocket or what ever.