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Why people (generally) don't like to be engineers?
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skyler8
What do you mean unfullfilling compared to other respectable degrees??
Have you any expirience with other degree courses??
Anyway I understand its your personal opinion, maybe its just not for you.
What do you mean unfullfilling compared to other respectable degrees??Have you any expirience with other degree courses??
Anyway I understand its your personal opinion, maybe its just not for you.
funnily enough, i'm doing a phd in chem eng yet i still dont know what chem engers do...
maybe i am disenchanted...
you live, you learn 
Interesting thread.
I’ve been an engineer for almost 3 years now in 2 different jobs. I have a mechanical engineering degree, and most of my friends are also engineers. Based on my experience, here’s what I think…
Why people don’t like to be engineers?
-Confusion about the nature of the work. How can anyone strive to become an engineer when they don’t even understand what it could entail?
Example: every time I meet a stranger and mention my job title, I am met with the same confused expression:
. Unless of course, I’m talking to a fellow engineer or someone with a passion for machines or science, then the reaction is “Oh cool! Tell me more…”
-Poor standards of maths and science education in the UK. Science lessons are less practical these days (or so I am told by teachers) so the subject probably seems dry. A good, energetic and passionate teacher can make all the difference here, but they are rare.
-Negative stereotype. Even when people get the profession right, the image is usually very poor (geeks, nerds, anti-social, fat old men (sorry fat old men!) ) A wonderful paper on the idea of improving our image here: Making Engineering Sexy.
-It can be, and often is, very very challenging work.
-Misuse of the term ‘engineer’.
I read recently about a study that proved that an important sounding job title raised the moral of the employee. No wonder all these companies and organisations are renaming so many jobs in this way. The worst example I’ve come across was a window cleaner re-titled as a window engineer. I think it’s a complete misuse of English language and thoroughly confusing.
-Decline of certain forms of engineering in the UK?
Practical Work vs. Office Work
Ok, just to clarify, it’s not as simple as technician = hands on, and engineer = desk job. There are various setups so apologies if I’ve missed anything out, but here is how it works for most engineering firms;
-Office with adjacent workshop/factory/site. Engineers who work in the office may or may not get their hands dirty on-site, if the job demands it (usually mechanical design engineers have the greatest need). This is the best setup IMO as you can go and play with the products you design, help to assemble them or carry out tests etc. which is very useful for all e.g. stops mistakes happening when info is passed from office to workshop.
-Office with worksite at a remote location. Same as above but engineers may or may not travel to a remote location to see the product, help assemble, manufacture, inspect or test it etc. Again, not all types of engineers will need to or want to go on-site, depends on the product, nature of the work and the industry. ‘Field engineers’ work on-site full time, their job is to make sure info from the office (e.g. technical drawings) is communicated properly to people on-site, and to organise the practical work.
This is my setup; I do simulations in the office, but the actual work takes place offshore in the middle of an ocean. Sometimes I get to go on-site to assist with projects, but the work is so specialised that I am not qualified enough to get physically involved (and quite rightly so as it would be ruddy dangerous!).
-Nothing but an office. Engineers are required, but the product or service is not a manufactured object e.g. consultancy work.
-Any others?
Salaries – Industry Variations Matter
In the UK engineering grads tend to get better starting salaries than most other fields, but you have to bare in mind industry vs industry variations. Engineers in the petrochem world can make a lot, whilst building services engineers much lower, typically. An article in last Saturday’s Times stated that some oil & gas engineers earn more than city bankers. Woohoo!
And the rest...
Interesting idea, but I don’t agree. People who naturally like challenges will not be put off by a difficult engineering activity; on the contrary, they’d love it! And most of these workshops are designed to be fun rather than overly taxing on the brain.
I seriously doubt an obligation to society will be the impetus for engineers sharing their passion – I think if they’re excited enough by their own career, they’ll happily share this with the people around them. And they do, in my experience, but we come across a major hurdle when we try – the misunderstanding about our profession. Remember the face: If you see that face in a pub you can be sure the other person is an engineer.
As you say, a drastic image overhaul is needed. Not only will this enlighten the general public, but it will encourage engineers to be proud of their jobs.
Yup, but I think passive ideas (like websites and featured ‘poster boys and girls’ for the industry) don’t actually achieve much. In fact, in my mind, they are off-putting. My partner is an engineer and was recently asked to write an essay for a STEM organisation. Whilst writing it we realized that most of these engineering ‘role models’ put people off by overstating their responsibilities and not emphasizing enough that all work is done in teams. But that’s a personal thing I dislike, I just believe that we need something bigger and better to make people understand what we really do, and how exciting it can be. The Science Museum is probably our best ambassador at the moment.
When I was at uni I did my bit by organising some engineering workshops for local primary schools. I was not surprised when I greeted the classes that most of the kids did not know what an engineer was. Now I see that the problem is far greater and that even some teenagers don’t know what it means. When I was 19, before I applied to uni, even I did not fully know what an engineer was! Shocking!
Anyways, there’s a masseeeev science & engineering fair taking place soon (The Big Bang) which I am volunteering for, looks like it’s going be loads of fun but my only criticism is: we will be preaching to the converted, the fair is only open to visiting schools who, presumably, have hand picked students with a strong interest in science and engineering. It is in its first year so perhaps it will evolve in the future (I hope it does!).
I am also writing a book at the moment which has a link to this whole glamorising engineering issue, but that’s another matter entirely…it won’t be out for many years!
I’ve been an engineer for almost 3 years now in 2 different jobs. I have a mechanical engineering degree, and most of my friends are also engineers. Based on my experience, here’s what I think…
Why people don’t like to be engineers?
-Confusion about the nature of the work. How can anyone strive to become an engineer when they don’t even understand what it could entail?
Example: every time I meet a stranger and mention my job title, I am met with the same confused expression:
. Unless of course, I’m talking to a fellow engineer or someone with a passion for machines or science, then the reaction is “Oh cool! Tell me more…”-Poor standards of maths and science education in the UK. Science lessons are less practical these days (or so I am told by teachers) so the subject probably seems dry. A good, energetic and passionate teacher can make all the difference here, but they are rare.
-Negative stereotype. Even when people get the profession right, the image is usually very poor (geeks, nerds, anti-social, fat old men (sorry fat old men!) ) A wonderful paper on the idea of improving our image here: Making Engineering Sexy.
-It can be, and often is, very very challenging work.
-Misuse of the term ‘engineer’.
I read recently about a study that proved that an important sounding job title raised the moral of the employee. No wonder all these companies and organisations are renaming so many jobs in this way. The worst example I’ve come across was a window cleaner re-titled as a window engineer. I think it’s a complete misuse of English language and thoroughly confusing.
-Decline of certain forms of engineering in the UK?
Practical Work vs. Office Work
Ok, just to clarify, it’s not as simple as technician = hands on, and engineer = desk job. There are various setups so apologies if I’ve missed anything out, but here is how it works for most engineering firms;
-Office with adjacent workshop/factory/site. Engineers who work in the office may or may not get their hands dirty on-site, if the job demands it (usually mechanical design engineers have the greatest need). This is the best setup IMO as you can go and play with the products you design, help to assemble them or carry out tests etc. which is very useful for all e.g. stops mistakes happening when info is passed from office to workshop.
-Office with worksite at a remote location. Same as above but engineers may or may not travel to a remote location to see the product, help assemble, manufacture, inspect or test it etc. Again, not all types of engineers will need to or want to go on-site, depends on the product, nature of the work and the industry. ‘Field engineers’ work on-site full time, their job is to make sure info from the office (e.g. technical drawings) is communicated properly to people on-site, and to organise the practical work.
This is my setup; I do simulations in the office, but the actual work takes place offshore in the middle of an ocean. Sometimes I get to go on-site to assist with projects, but the work is so specialised that I am not qualified enough to get physically involved (and quite rightly so as it would be ruddy dangerous!).
-Nothing but an office. Engineers are required, but the product or service is not a manufactured object e.g. consultancy work.
-Any others?
Salaries – Industry Variations Matter
In the UK engineering grads tend to get better starting salaries than most other fields, but you have to bare in mind industry vs industry variations. Engineers in the petrochem world can make a lot, whilst building services engineers much lower, typically. An article in last Saturday’s Times stated that some oil & gas engineers earn more than city bankers. Woohoo!
And the rest...
Altocirrus
This is why I believe all these schemes encouraging school pupils to become engineers (scholarships, fun engineering challenges etc) will all end in tears; the main result will be to increase drop-out rate. To see the degree through to the end, you need genuine motivation from within.:
Interesting idea, but I don’t agree. People who naturally like challenges will not be put off by a difficult engineering activity; on the contrary, they’d love it! And most of these workshops are designed to be fun rather than overly taxing on the brain.
bluenoxid
Finally, Engineers seem to have lost the plot. They don’t realise that no amount of posturing, meetings or press releases is going to solve our STEM problem. They don’t realise that they have an obligation to society to ensure that they are replaced by eager and open minds. Instead they concentrate efforts on ensuring that the job title is sorted in what is really a vain attempt to paint over the cracks.
I seriously doubt an obligation to society will be the impetus for engineers sharing their passion – I think if they’re excited enough by their own career, they’ll happily share this with the people around them. And they do, in my experience, but we come across a major hurdle when we try – the misunderstanding about our profession. Remember the face:
If you see that face in a pub you can be sure the other person is an engineer. As you say, a drastic image overhaul is needed. Not only will this enlighten the general public, but it will encourage engineers to be proud of their jobs.
I think that we need a massive change and to agree a strategy to sort this image problem. It isn’t going to be a quick fix and will require everybody to work together to place engineering in a positive light. Interactive websites built for all age groups, examples in careers, etc.
Yup, but I think passive ideas (like websites and featured ‘poster boys and girls’ for the industry) don’t actually achieve much. In fact, in my mind, they are off-putting. My partner is an engineer and was recently asked to write an essay for a STEM organisation. Whilst writing it we realized that most of these engineering ‘role models’ put people off by overstating their responsibilities and not emphasizing enough that all work is done in teams. But that’s a personal thing I dislike, I just believe that we need something bigger and better to make people understand what we really do, and how exciting it can be. The Science Museum is probably our best ambassador at the moment.
When I was at uni I did my bit by organising some engineering workshops for local primary schools. I was not surprised when I greeted the classes that most of the kids did not know what an engineer was. Now I see that the problem is far greater and that even some teenagers don’t know what it means. When I was 19, before I applied to uni, even I did not fully know what an engineer was! Shocking!
Anyways, there’s a masseeeev science & engineering fair taking place soon (The Big Bang) which I am volunteering for, looks like it’s going be loads of fun but my only criticism is: we will be preaching to the converted, the fair is only open to visiting schools who, presumably, have hand picked students with a strong interest in science and engineering. It is in its first year so perhaps it will evolve in the future (I hope it does!).
I am also writing a book at the moment which has a link to this whole glamorising engineering issue, but that’s another matter entirely…it won’t be out for many years!
black_mamba
Interesting idea, but I don’t agree. People who naturally like challenges will not be put off by a difficult engineering activity; on the contrary, they’d love it! And most of these workshops are designed to be fun rather than overly taxing on the brain.
That's my point: engineering challenges and other incentives will encourage more people to apply for engineering degrees. The trouble will begin when these students arrive at uni and find themselves studying what is essentially a maths degree (at least that's what it is for the first 1-2 years). They will get disheartened, disillusioned and drop out- only people who are genuinely motivated will continue. And they don't need to win a bridge building contest or be given £1000 to apply for an engineering degree.
I'd work on lowering the drop out rate before trying to increase the number of applicants. This could be done by representing engineering courses more accurately (maybe put some differential equations in the prospectus), or by re-structuring the course to make it more inspiring and applied (without compromising on content).
What's all this "Engineers don't get the respect they deserve" stuff about anyway? Seems to be nothing but pretentious, self-important ********. Why do engineers (or any other profession, for that matter) deserve respect?
I'm also quite content with public ignorance. Ultimately it means fewer engineers in the job market, always a guarantee of jobs knocking around, a greater choice and higher pay. Me = winner.
I'm also quite content with public ignorance. Ultimately it means fewer engineers in the job market, always a guarantee of jobs knocking around, a greater choice and higher pay. Me = winner.
Altocirrus
That's my point: engineering challenges and other incentives will encourage more people to apply for engineering degrees. The trouble will begin when these students arrive at uni and find themselves studying what is essentially a maths degree (at least that's what it is for the first 1-2 years). They will get disheartened, disillusioned and drop out- only people who are genuinely motivated will continue.
OK I get you now, I misunderstood your earlier post.
I'd work on lowering the drop out rate before trying to increase the number of applicants. This could be done by representing engineering courses more accurately (maybe put some differential equations in the prospectus), or by re-structuring the course to make it more inspiring and applied (without compromising on content).
You're kidding right? Degree courses are meant to be academic. That doesn't meant degrees should not have plenty of practical elements to them, but tipping the content in favor of applied work rather than fundamental theory is missing the point. You go to uni to get the theory, primarily, and yes the university has an obligation to make it as enjoyable as possible, but the application of this knowledge will come afterwards, when you start working, or on a placement (or in your free time, if you do engineering related hobbies like mechanics). Maybe this is not made clear to pre-uni students, it certainly wasn't to me.
EdwardCurrent
What's all this "Engineers don't get the respect they deserve" stuff about anyway? Seems to be nothing but pretentious, self-important ********. Why do engineers (or any other profession, for that matter) deserve respect?
I'm also quite content with public ignorance. Ultimately it means fewer engineers in the job market, always a guarantee of jobs knocking around, a greater choice and higher pay. Me = winner.
I'm also quite content with public ignorance. Ultimately it means fewer engineers in the job market, always a guarantee of jobs knocking around, a greater choice and higher pay. Me = winner.
I used to think the same (except being content with ignorance!). My answer to that is simple; I'm not advocating forcing people, or disillusioned eng grads into engineering work to increase our numbers or fulfill some societal obligation. I'd just like our general image to be clarified and improved.
If you feel it is pointless then I'm guessing you've not come across the ignorance, indifference, or confusion about our chosen careers first hand? Doesn't it bug you?
As for being pretentious, I hear you - I squirm when people start getting into the whole technicians vs engineers thing as both are equally as important, and at point some someone will always mention that technicians deserve less respect because they may be less educated.
As for the rest of the discussion I don't think there's anyhing pretentious about it. You asked why does any profession deserve respect? Bit of a loaded question so I shall answer with this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DZ3_obMXwU
black_mamba You're kidding right? Degree courses are meant to be academic. That doesn't meant degrees should not have plenty of practical elements to them, but tipping the content in favor of applied work rather than fundamental theory is missing the point.
You go to uni to get the theory, primarily, and yes the university has an obligation to make it as enjoyable as possible, but the application of this knowledge will come afterwards, when you start working, or on a placement (or in your free time, if you do engineering related hobbies like mechanics). Maybe this is not made clear to pre-uni students, it certainly wasn't to me.
You're kidding right? Degree courses are meant to be academic. That doesn't meant degrees should not have plenty of practical elements to them, but tipping the content in favor of applied work rather than fundamental theory is missing the point. You go to uni to get the theory, primarily, and yes the university has an obligation to make it as enjoyable as possible, but the application of this knowledge will come afterwards, when you start working, or on a placement (or in your free time, if you do engineering related hobbies like mechanics). Maybe this is not made clear to pre-uni students, it certainly wasn't to me.
I think that there needs to be a restructure of the Math's part of Engineering. I would like them to actually split the Maths amongst the modules, possibly retaining it as a pure module for first year. I spent semester 1 of second year learning about matrices and statistics. Why??? We don't actually practically apply it in theory until semester 2 of third year. Surely it would be better to move some modules forward and teach the Maths, then the practical aspect at the same time.
I really do think that they have to push the fact that this is a high commitment course at general university open days. I scare people by turning around to them and telling them that you will hit breaking point during your degree and you will have to learn to pull through it.
Bribing students with scholarships is just bidding for trouble. Golden Handshakes at the end is good but this shouldn't be publicised as a bribe
Britain needs to follow Germany's lead. There (and on the continent in general) Engineer is a protected title, one needs to study for several years. You can't just turn up to somebody's house to check the boiler on the pretence that you are an Engineer. At the end of the day that is why on the continent the profession is seen as maths/physics' answer to doctor or lawyer. Nothing will change until the government protects the title. It makes me sad that a country that was once a pioneering Engineering nation now thinks of engineers as they do.
black_mamba
Salaries – Industry Variations Matter
In the UK engineering grads tend to get better starting salaries than most other fields, but you have to bare in mind industry vs industry variations. Engineers in the petrochem world can make a lot, whilst building services engineers much lower, typically. An article in last Saturday’s Times stated that some oil & gas engineers earn more than city bankers. Woohoo!
Salaries – Industry Variations Matter
In the UK engineering grads tend to get better starting salaries than most other fields, but you have to bare in mind industry vs industry variations. Engineers in the petrochem world can make a lot, whilst building services engineers much lower, typically. An article in last Saturday’s Times stated that some oil & gas engineers earn more than city bankers. Woohoo!
You have to remember though, that this is because quite a few engineering graduates don't stay in the industry. Engineering graduates are very attractive to an entire host of employers and this is why I think quite a few leave the field.
I decided not to stay in engineering because I could earn more than twice the money outside of engineering in a job that was just as, if not more, intellectually stimulating and had creative and analytical aspects (for example, roughly 20k starting for a "design engineer" versus 45k for a management consultant).
BluesMan
Who in gods name do you work for that they are willing to pay a graduate 45k?
A boutique management consultancy firm.
I think the big players McKinsey, Bain, Boston Consulting all pay around 35k excluding bonuses, but a few boutiques at least offer a higher starting package.
Benny_b
I believe Aldi pay about 40k to graduates. Bit desperate it seems! But generally you have to be looking for about 20-25k for an engineering grad.
The hours at Aldi are also apparently, "extreme" and the work, at least for the first year or so is hardly what you'd expect to do as a graduate manager.
I think a lot of people don't become Engineers because to be quite frank they want a nice little job in an office, not doing anything that could possibly get their hands dirty.
From September I'm studying Motorsport Technology, I've had so many people either ask me if it's a posh way of becoming a mechanic OR that I've picked a doss degree yet another throughout my degree I will be learning about all the components which go together to produce a car for racing, how to optimise performance, manufacturing parts, taking engines apart and putting them back together, design and development, maths and science needed (goes without saying!), materials science, fluid mechanics, aerodynamics etc. etc. and I'll conduct two individual research projects with a high amount of practical application, oh and the Occupational Therapy girl and the wannabe Social Worker says I'm just doing a doss degree because it'll be easy!
With regards to the original question I think you need to want to do engineering and have an inquizitive mind, also a certain amount of Maths and Science aptitude.
From September I'm studying Motorsport Technology, I've had so many people either ask me if it's a posh way of becoming a mechanic
OR that I've picked a doss degree yet another throughout my degree I will be learning about all the components which go together to produce a car for racing, how to optimise performance, manufacturing parts, taking engines apart and putting them back together, design and development, maths and science needed (goes without saying!), materials science, fluid mechanics, aerodynamics etc. etc. and I'll conduct two individual research projects with a high amount of practical application, oh and the Occupational Therapy girl and the wannabe Social Worker says I'm just doing a doss degree because it'll be easy!With regards to the original question I think you need to want to do engineering and have an inquizitive mind, also a certain amount of Maths and Science aptitude.
Its hard to understand what an engineer does while still at college imo.
I'm studying a BTEC in engineering, the stuff we are studying is pretty much the foundation for a Mechanical, Electrical or Material science engineering degree.
There are no experiments, no working of parts or fixing cars even though we have a whole department dedicated to practical mechanics. The only tools we have learned to use so far are drawing boards. I have sat in lecutures at university and have some friends who study and have jobs in engineering.
I suspect that science and maths is made up of such a wide unspecific number of subjects at GCSE and maybe A level its hard to know what to study. Not knowing what engineering is, people might go on to study physics, maths or chemistry when actually engineering is pretty much physics, maths and chemistry combined with many other subjects. Its also the in thing now for some to not do some thing that leads to a job, but something a teacher or some one feels you are good at. Subjects like maths and physics are so subject specific they are only useful for the knowlege you gain studying them. For example statistics in maths. People who become physisists or mathematisions are only the eleate.
Another point is the image of an engineer might not be as good as say Asian countries like China. I heard here almost every one is being pressured to become an engineer or other high payed job which benefits the economy.
In England the social pressure is to have the most fun you can and spend the most money you can. This might be one reason why people might not be thinking about what happens after graduating.
I'm studying a BTEC in engineering, the stuff we are studying is pretty much the foundation for a Mechanical, Electrical or Material science engineering degree.
There are no experiments, no working of parts or fixing cars even though we have a whole department dedicated to practical mechanics. The only tools we have learned to use so far are drawing boards. I have sat in lecutures at university and have some friends who study and have jobs in engineering.
I suspect that science and maths is made up of such a wide unspecific number of subjects at GCSE and maybe A level its hard to know what to study. Not knowing what engineering is, people might go on to study physics, maths or chemistry when actually engineering is pretty much physics, maths and chemistry combined with many other subjects. Its also the in thing now for some to not do some thing that leads to a job, but something a teacher or some one feels you are good at. Subjects like maths and physics are so subject specific they are only useful for the knowlege you gain studying them. For example statistics in maths. People who become physisists or mathematisions are only the eleate.
Another point is the image of an engineer might not be as good as say Asian countries like China. I heard here almost every one is being pressured to become an engineer or other high payed job which benefits the economy.
In England the social pressure is to have the most fun you can and spend the most money you can. This might be one reason why people might not be thinking about what happens after graduating.
Sigma2009
This is exactly what happened to me. I just had no idea what engineering was in my late teens.
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