Kuala Lampur War Crimes Tribunal: George W. Bush and Co. Guilty of ‘War Crimes’

No, it has not. Looking at the stats an agreeable number is well below 1 million, and a large proportion, if not the majority have been killed by the insurjent forces.

Imprisonment without charge on the back of credible intelligence from their security forces.

Widespread torture? Let's get a source on that. Regime change? Yeah, getting rid of genocidal dictators is a bad thing guys! How dare they!

They wouldn't have needed to imprison them without charge if the intelligence was as credible as you say. The fact that most of the prisoners have been released speaks against what you say. As for the torture, I linked an ICRC report which talks about beating and waterboarding, amongst other things...

Oh sorry... only hundreds of thousands have been killed. Is that better? Can you live with that now? Does it feel better knowing you're only justifying the murder of hundreds of thousands instead of millions?

Why do you think there are insurgents?


Imprisonment without charge on the back of "credible" secret intelligence on the say so of an unaccountable official.
So you're a fascist who claims to be a liberal?



That's right, pretend like it all doesn't exist if it makes you feel better.
I'd be ashamed if I was the unreserved apologist of war criminals, torturers, child killers and terrorists.

Well if he is, I hope the next person they find guilty is Mohammed

The closet Christian continues to embarass himself. You're almost stooping to the level of exe and indiana.

Bush caused the deaths of Millions, Muhammad(pbuh) had only around 1000 people die in all his battles. Muhammad(pbuh)'s conquest brought huge improvements, not just to that society at the time, but to the rest of the world over.

Bush brought nothing, just deaths and continued resistance (which btw is doing very well might I add).

ps. I didn't have time to reply to your closet Christian post in another thread, because you believe homosexuals will go heaven in Christianity.

Read the commentries - http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/6-9.htm

Then like a fool, who has no clue, you accuse Islam of having "different interpretations". At least no one in Islam says "homo's can't get in heaven".

How do I know there are insurjents? Every single media outlet in the world acknowledging their existence, they themselves having press releases, websites and training camps, talking to people who have been in physical confrontation with them... But wait, let me guess, it's a conspiracy right? Oh, and yes, I can live with myself just fine. Casualties are a part of war, the insurjents constantly maxamise the amount of civilian casualties inflicted, whereas British Forces show almost super human restraint when faced with an enemy in a situation where anybody could concievabley be hurt.

No my dear, I'm a pragmatist and a realist. And I don't think I've ever claimed to be a liberal

So that's you saying you don't have a source then?
So would I, glad I'm not

Good job on avoiding the question. Or are you incapable of reading?
No...why do you think there are insurgents?

And I guess the Amnesty International report detailing British armed forces in Iraq indiscriminately shooting and killing Iraqi civilians, including a little eight year old girl and a family at a wedding celebration, and in countless situations where there was no apparent threat to themselves or others, just doesn't exist to you?

I expect you to say Amnesty International are liars and terrorists

What about the Wikileaks files revealing the unprovoked murders of countless civilians? One time 16 children, at least three women and one mentally ill man.

What about the 596 innocent civilian deaths caused by international troops and the Afghan National Security Forces in Afghanistan just in 2009 detailed by a UN report? A 28 per cent reduction from the last year! Yay!

What about when Royal Marine Commandos gunned down a passing car, killing a father and daughter?

What about 2008 12 March, Helmand, Ambushed troops called in helicopter gunships after a soldier was wounded. Three enemy were claimed to be killed. However the bodies of two women and two children were later found, plus a wounded child.

Or what about 19 November, in Helmand, Soldiers from J Company, 42 Commando Royal Marines shoot dead a child.

'Four more UK soldiers disciplined after Afghan civilians killed or injured'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/mar/29/uk-soldiers-disciplined-afghanistan
'Wikileaks killings: UK troops face legal challenge'
http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/international_politics/wikileaks+killings+uk+troops+face+legal+challenge/3731982.html
'UK Army's killings and torture in Iraq'
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/198256.html
'Royal Military Policeman Whistle-blower says Army Abuse is not investigated'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8300726.stm

See Also:
Rising popular anger behind attack on British troops in southern Iraq
[28 June 2003]
Photos indicate torture and sexual abuse by British troops in Iraq
[4 June 2003]



Just keep on putting your hands over your ears and saying "la la la" pretending none of this happened so you can carry on deluded in your world-view Keep on blaming all the death and destruction on the fighters defending their country, who wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the invasion and occupation would they?

Why do you still believe people who consistently lie about their actions? That is the definition of a gullible moron. No worries, don't listen to me. Just keep lapping up the propaganda like an obedient sheep you are.



At least you admit you're not a fan of liberal democracy. Then maybe most reasonable people can stop taking anything you say seriously.

A pragmatic realist takes on board the world as it is and deals with it. Not deludes themselves into thinking it's something it's not.



Torture Policy Editorial in the Washington Post 21 June 2004
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56753-2004Jun20.html

Human Rights Watch, "Descriptions of Techniques Authorized by the CIA," November 2005.
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/10/26/usdom14465.htm

Dana Priest and Barton Gellman, "U.S. Decries Abuse but Defends Interrogations" Washington Post, December 26, 2002; Page A01
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/09/AR2006060901356.html

Human Rights Watch, "U.S.: Vice President Endorses Torture," October 26, 2006.
"The United States has long considered waterboarding to be torture and a war crime." http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/10/26/usdom14465.htm

Much of what has happened to the military on Donald Rumsfeld's watch has been catastrophic by Bob Herbert New York Times 23 May 2005
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/23/opinion/23herbert.html?ex=1270785600&en=37bef79604f97228&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland

FBI, Freedom Of Information Act released document
http://foia.fbi.gov/guantanamo/detainees.pdf

Call to Try Bush, Inter Press Service, February 2, 2009
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/02/024

www.timesonline.co.uk, March 13, 2010, "Karl Rove says water torture is justified - and a source of pride" by Giles Whittell

This Week' Transcript: Former Vice President Dick Cheney". This Week. ABC. February 14, 2010. Retrieved February 27, 2010.
http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/week-transcript-vice-president-dick-cheney/story?id=9818034
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4414491.stm

Barnes, Julian and Miller, Greg (15 June 2009). "Detainee says he lied to CIA in harsh interrogations" LA Times. Retrieved on 15 June 2009.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-cia-detainee16-2009jun16,0,316330.story

Mayer, Jane (11 July 2005). "The Experiment". The New Yorker. Retrieved 19 April 2009. "“torture was inflicted on them.”
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/07/11/050711fa_fact4

"George W. Bush doesn't regret waterboarding Khalid Sheikh Mohammed". Politico.com. 3 June 2010. Retrieved 4 June 2010.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0610/38085.html

Warrick, Joby; Dan Eggen (11 December 2007). "Waterboarding Recounted". The Washington Post. Retrieved 20 April 2009.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/10/AR2007121002091.html

"CIA finally admits to waterboarding". The Australian (News Limited). 7 February 2008. Retrieved 20 April 2009.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23170732-2703,00.html

Mukasey, Michael B. (6 May 2011). "The Waterboarding Trail to bin Laden". The Wall Street Journal.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703859304576305023876506348.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

CIA Director Leon Panetta, interview with NBC reporter Brian Williams
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032619/ns/nightly_news/

The United Nations Special Rapporteur on torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment– Professor Manfred Nowak– on 20 January 2009, remarked on German television that, following the inauguration of Barack Obama as new President, George W. Bush has lost his head of state immunity and under international law the U.S. is now mandated to start criminal proceedings against all those involved in violations of the UN Convention Against Torture.

Marinero, Ximena (21 January 2009). "UN torture investigator calls on Obama to charge Bush for Guantanamo abuses". JURIST. Retrieved 21 April 2009.
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2009/01/un-torture-investigator-calls-on-obama.php

Law professor Dietmar Herz has said that under U.S. and international law former President Bush is criminally responsible for adopting torture as interrogation tool.
Horton, Scott (21 January 2009). "UN Rapporteur: Initiate criminal proceedings against Bush and Rumsfeld now". Harper's Magazine. Retrieved 21 April 2009.
http://harpers.org/archive/2009/01/hbc-90004250

"Bush: Top terror suspects to face tribunals". CNN / AP. 2006-09-06.
http://web.archive.org/web/20060906193917/http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/09/06/bush.speech/index.html

"Bush admits to CIA secret prisons". BBC News. 2006-09-07.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5321606.stm

Priest, Dana (2005-11-02). "CIA Holds Terror Suspects in Secret Prisons". The Washington Post.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/01/AR2005110101644.html

Matthew Day (2012-03-27). "Poland ex-spy boss 'charged over alleged CIA secret prison'". The Telegraph.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/9169366/Poland-ex-spy-boss-charged-over-alleged-CIA-secret-prison.html

Joanna Berendt, Nicholas Kulish (2012-03-27). "Polish Ex-Official Charged With Aiding the C.I.A.". The New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/28/world/europe/polish-ex-official-charged-with-aiding-cia.html

Report on the Treatment of Fourteen "High Value Detainees" in CIA Custody, International Committee of the Red Cross, 2007-02-14
http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nybooks.com%2Ficrc-report.pdf&date=2009-04-18

"US Torture: Voices from the Black Sites" by Mark Danner, New York Review of Books 56:6, April 9, 2009. http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22530

"Tales from Torture's Dark World" by Mark Danner, The New York Times, March 15, 2009.

Bronwen Maddox, Tough words from Rice leave loopholes, The Times on December 06, 2005
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11069-1905609_2,00.html

Smith, R. Jeffrey (May 14, 2006). "Fired Officer Believed CIA Lied to Congress". The Washington Post.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/13/AR2006051301311_pf.html

Rendition' and secret detention: A global system of human rights violations", Amnesty International, 1 January 2006
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/POL30/003/2006/en

Sherwood Ross (April 1, 2010). "More Than Two-Dozen Countries Complicit In US Torture Program". The Public Record.
http://pubrecord.org/torture/7326/two-dozen-countries-complicit-torture/

Jason Burke (June 13, 2004). "Secret world of US jails". London: Observer.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/jun/13/usa.terrorism

"Swiss paper claims proofs of secret US torture camp". Australian Broadcasting Corporation. January 12, 2006.
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2006/s1546440.htm

"CIA Torture Jet sold in attempted cover up". Melbourne Indymedia. December 11, 2004.
http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2004/12/84411.php

Grey, Stephen (November 14, 2004). "Details of US 'torture by proxy flights' emerge". Not In Our Name.
http://www.notinourname.net/restrictions/torture-flights-14nov04.htm

Brooks, Rosa (November 5, 2005). "Torture: It's the new American way". Los Angeles Times.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-brooks5nov05,0,2414917.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions

Duncan Campbell, Richard Norton-Taylor (June 2, 2008). "US accused of holding terror suspects on prison ships". The Guardian (London).
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/02/usa.humanrights
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/02/terrorism.terrorism

Priest, Dana (November 2, 2005). "CIA Holds Terror Suspects in Secret Prisons". CNN. pp. A01
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/01/AR2005110101644.html

Craig Whitlock (2005-11-03). "U.S. Faces Scrutiny Over Secret Prisons". The Washington Post.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/03/AR2005110300422.html?nav=hcmodule

Jane Mayer (2007-08-13). "The Black Sites; A rare look inside the C.I.A.'s secret interrogation program". The New Yorker.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/08/13/070813fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=1

Scott Shane, David Johnston and James Risen (2007-10-04). "Secret U.S. Endorsement of Severe Interrogations". The New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/04/washington/04interrogate.html

Mikkelsen, Randall (2007-12-06). "CIA says it made and destroyed all interrogation tapes". Reuters.
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN0654798320071207

"U.S. Holding Prisoners in More Than Two Dozen Secret Detention Facilities Worldwide, New Report Says". Human Rights First. June 17, 2004.
http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/media/2004_alerts/0617.htm

"CIA 'running secret terror jails'". BBC News. November 2, 2005. Retrieved January 1, 2010. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4400728.stm

So basically the US operated secret extra-judicial dark torture prisons around the world. And you had no idea about this. Any questions?

How does having gay vicars prove anyone can go heaven if there is a heaven, have those gay vicars gone heaven and come back and told you this? Furthermore, isn't the bible the word of God? If the word of God is fallible then surely God is fallible?

Lol, lets say Im a Buddhist and I kill millions of people, does that then mean that Buddhists can be mass murderers and that I am not be an abomination? Or if Bin Laden kills people does that mean it is fine for Muslims to kill people? Having gay vicars doesn't mean anything, it just means that particular person is gay.

"'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." Leviticus 20:13

Was that verse just inserted into the bible by some random man for conveniences sake, or has that verse become redundant and lost its meaning?

I think maybe you should watch John Pilger's "The War You Don't See" and Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent". Maybe open your mind up a little.



You said they always show "super human restraint", then I posted dozens of examples of where they have killed innocent civilians unnecessarily and shown no restraint. Case closed.



Waterboarding is torture. The US admit this. And the 'unsourced' claims? Coming from George Bush, The Guardian, The Observer, The Washington Post, the BBC, The Telegraph, The New York Times, Amnesty International, ABC news, The LA Times, Reuters news agency and countless foreign media sources. Let me guess, media conspiracy? Bush lying to make himself look bad? Who's wearing the tin foil hat now.

I think you may be suffering from an example this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Only acknowledging sources which confirm your prejudiced world-view. Have fun trolling or being denial whichever you are doing.

This is not true at all I'm afraid. You see, the vast majority of intelligence they gather is not admissable in court, and due to the nature of their jobs, agents cannot exactly stand up and testify in a courtroom. This is why people are held without charge, because they are guilty, it just cannot be proven in a court of law because of the way our legal systems work.

But hey, if you could show me exactly what the US gains by rounding up innocent civilians and holding them at their expense, then maybe I'll believe the story that every in Gitmo is innocent.

Country that has Islam as the state religion considers the 'Devils of America' to be war-criminals. Shocking news.

Way to distort my argument into a straw man, saying there were innocent people in Gitmo does not mean that everyone there was innocent. Neither did I say that the US was acting rationally in imprisoning innocent people.

Anyway, what you're saying is not true at all, I'm afraid. Bush et al were going to try the detainees in military tribunals, and frequently denied (until the Supreme Court ruled otherwise) that they did not fall under the US judicial system. In military tribunals you do not have a right to see all evidence presented against you, because obviously some of it will be classified. Thus, your explanation for why they weren't tried does not hold up, since they wouldn't have been tried in civilian courts but rather tribunals. Nice try though... would you like to try again?

No starw man, I responded to what you said And again, what does the US have to gain from imprisoning innocent people at it's own expense?

Soo...they were denied the right to try them in Military Tribunerals...so that proves your point. I do rather think it proves my point actually

Half the countries with Islam as their state religion are US client states.

So, the fact that the Supreme Court deemed it unconstitutional to keep someone in a 'legal black hole' proves they were guilty but couldn't be tried. Man, you're a genius!

The fact that they wanted them tried in such a manner shows that they thought they could gain a conviction, but they were not willing to have them tried in open court. If anything that shows exactly what I said, that they have the information but can't risk having it in the public domain.