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Reply 60
microfatcat
Not to mention changing the banknotes and coins of the UK, Canada and other countries under the Commonwealth with the Queen's head on it, as well as changing the post boxes that have HRH engraved on them - including postboxes in Malta. Think of all the Wikipedia changes we would have to make :O really, getting rid of the monarchy is too much work (and too much embarrassment) :P


The UK getting rid of the monarchy wouldn't affect Canada, Australia, New Zealand and everywhere else. They can decide themselves whether they want to keep the monarchy or not. If the UK got rid of the Queen, she'd still have another fifteen realms. I think the postboxes would probably stay the same and we could replace the Queen's face with someone more deserving. Although you do raise a good point about the Wikipedia edits...
MSB
The Crown Estate gives more money to the taxpayer than the taxpayer gives to the Royal Family.

Ditto, but these Republican idiots put childish ideology over practicality and logic. Additionally, as they might not have realised, most of those expenses would be present whether or not there was a reigning monarch, as the palaces and such would still have to be maintained.
Reply 62
The crown estate is held by the crown, rather than as the personal property of the reigning monarch, with its revenues signed over to the Exchequer in return for the Civil List (a practice I believe established by the later Hanoverians). However, at accession the reigning monarch could choose not to sign over said revenue - as far as I am aware - meaning that the Queen is in effect giving more money to the country than she is 'taking'.

However, this is all irrelevant. The Queen has the right to be there because she inherited it. HM owns both the state and ultimately all property which comprises it - the principle of escheat still holds. So, to quote a rather enjoyable film (and to completely subvert its message) 'It is not the function of this, or any, house to sit in judgement upon this King'
Don't we get a lot from tourism 'from' the royal family?

I'm actually staunchly against the royal family, but from a purely fiscal viewpoint aren't they 'worth it'? Maybe, maybe not. I don't really know the figures.
paella
Nope, I see no reason to deprive others of what they have, especially as it wouldn't give me any more. Plus, its part of Britain, and an important part of our cultural identity. In a recent survey, 60% of the population said they would overthrow the government and stand up and fight if the Queen called them to. In the second world war they didn't fight for democracy or Churchill, they fought for Queen and country. Anyone who calls for the royal family to be cast down does not understand Britain.

Anyways, what business is it of ours to decide to throw down the royal family, its their property, their title, we cannot take it away from them. It would be no less unconstitutional and outrageous if we took someone's house to bring in more revenue for the government.

That almost brought a tear to the eye. God Save the Queen!
Reply 65
Thegoonman
I think they are a waste of taxpayer's money. Why should one family get loads of money when there is still homeless people starving on the street?


Er, to cover the expenses of performing their job. No member of the Royal Family gets paid a salary for what they do - which of course most heads of state in the world get.

Whenever I debate this argue everyone says "well, they bring in more money than they get given", which firstly isn't true at all and there is no evidence to support this.


The accounts of the Crown Estate, profit from which is gifted to Parliament each year.

We don't need a royal family to run this country, just look at other countries like the USA. They are the most powerful country in the world yet don't have a king or queen.


A country doesn't 'need' to have anything.

Thegoonman
As wikipedia states "it is no longer the private property of the reigning monarch". Therefore the crown estate is government property. My point is proven.


No, you don't understand. It is not private property insofar as its running is done by Commissioners appointed and incorporated. Its profits are then given to the Treasury. In essence, it is held in trust.

Despite the administrative running of it, the property has never been surrendered or disposed, quite simply because it is Crown property to begin with. The dichotomy you attempt to create between property of the monarch and property of Elizabeth II is, at best, artificial.
Reply 66
MSB
"The Crown Estate belongs to the reigning monarch ‘in right of The Crown’, that is, it is inherent with the accession to the throne...The Government also does not own The Crown Estate."
http://www.thecrownestate.co.uk/tce_faqs.htm

Wrong again. Keep trying.


haha. well you shut up that OP. :biggrin:

I would give you rep although I'm not sure it'll make a difference. :s-smilie:
Reply 67
Saff123
Your right though it's not about cost but about meritocracy and about being a citizen not a subject.


Er, you almost certainly are a British citizen. Being a British citizen, you cannot be a British subject - if you become the former, you cease to be the latter - although British subject status is only possessed by few people these days, it's a bit of an anachronistic status.

Fusilero
But then what we call ourselves? The United Republic of Great Britain and Northern Ireland? UR just doesn't sound right.


United Commonwealth sounds quite nice.
Reply 69


I can see it was uploaded by a Socialist: did the first half, then got bored and wandered off.

Interesting proposition, although one thing I would suggest is retaining the Prime Minister and Cabinet as distinct from the Presidency. I recall that during the run up to the war in Iraq Americans were reluctant to criticise President Bush for fear of being labeled unpatriotic precisely because the president as head of the state acts as a potent symbol of nationalism particularly during a crisis (9/11).

You could either have a ceremonial president like Ireland (Mary Robinson is Fab!) and have power vested in the PM; or possibly do something similar to the French where President and Prime Minster co-exist as political figures and the prestige is not entirely vested (although not entirely equal either) in one individual.
Reply 71
L i b
I can see it was uploaded by a Socialist: did the first half, then got bored and wandered off.


This actually made me chuckle.
Reply 72
London Liaisons
Interesting proposition, although one thing I would suggest is retaining the Prime Minister and Cabinet as distinct from the Presidency. I recall that during the run up to the war in Iraq Americans were reluctant to criticise President Bush for fear of being labeled unpatriotic precisely because the president as head of the state acts as a potent symbol of nationalism particularly during a crisis (9/11).

You could either have a ceremonial president like Ireland (Mary Robinson is Fab!) and have power vested in the PM; or possibly do something similar to the French where President and Prime Minster co-exist as political figures and the prestige is not entirely vested (although not entirely equal either) in one individual.


If we had a ceremonial president, that person could basically just take over from where the queen left off adopting most of her roles and responsibilities, doing charity work, carrying out official duties and making state visits. An elected queen, if you like. It defeats a lot of the arguments proposed by monarchists, as a democratic modern and economically efficient alternative to the monarchy.
Reply 73
Even if we, the UK, did get rid of the monarchy theyd just go live in Australia.
Then when they get kicked out of there, to canada.

In the end theyd just live in a shack on Gibralta.

But seriously if its about money etc etc why dont we give all the Crown Estate and all the money back to the monarchy, and then they would be self funding, wouldnt they?

They dont cost a lot really and are an interesting and well respected, if anachronistic, tradition.
flugestuge
The armed forces will swear allegiance to whoever signs the cheques.
They and their general officers are politically naive.

Our system of brainwashing works brilliantly.
We are great at churning out brainwashed uneducated soldiers who will die for a pathetic wage,
for a marginal cause advocated by politicians who just want extra votes.


Many members of the armed forces are neither brainwashed nor uneducated and many do try to be and are aware of the political and global situation especially if they are thrown into the thick of it.
Reply 75
L i b
Er, you almost certainly are a British citizen. Being a British citizen, you cannot be a British subject - if you become the former, you cease to be the latter - although British subject status is only possessed by few people these days, it's a bit of an anachronistic status.

According to the OED a subject is "under the dominion of a monarch"; to be subject to a body implies one has no choice in the matter; citizenry beyond denoting legally being a member of a state has it's roots in the Citizens of the the first republics who served the state and were heard. So actually your both, in yet another British compromise:

You do not swear allegiance to the "realm", you swear an oath Lizbeth and she swear it to? Uh nobody as she's sovereign. Should you be unhappy with her, theres simply no mechanism for you register your opinion. Both of which highlight your subject status.

Legally both terms have been redefined more times than I care to remember which is perhaps where your coming from. However in the strictest political definition your subjects who are also in some fudged sense also citizens.

(Let it be noted I'm half-English.)

United Commonwealth sounds quite nice.

That does have a ring to it.
Oculist
The crown estate is held by the crown, rather than as the personal property of the reigning monarch, with its revenues signed over to the Exchequer in return for the Civil List (a practice I believe established by the later Hanoverians). However, at accession the reigning monarch could choose not to sign over said revenue - as far as I am aware - meaning that the Queen is in effect giving more money to the country than she is 'taking'.

However, this is all irrelevant. The Queen has the right to be there because she inherited it. HM owns both the state and ultimately all property which comprises it - the principle of escheat still holds. So, to quote a rather enjoyable film (and to completely subvert its message) 'It is not the function of this, or any, house to sit in judgement upon this King'


Actually, the queen does not have a right to be there as she's illegitimate. The guy who should be on the thrown lives in Australia, it was on a Tony Robinson documentary a while back.
The idea of a British President sickens and disgusts me.

You know, we had this argument in a public law seminar, or rather whether the Queen could reasonably refuse royal assent. Would there be an uprising? Considering that the Monarchy is, by % of polled inhabitants, twice as popular as the Government, who knows...? People love the Queen. They actually love her. Even natives deep in the jungles of Borneo have pictures of her on the walls of their longhouses. The Queen is our Head of State. She represents our country in a fair and just manner. She is not politically biased but not afraid to stand up for democracy and to attack terrorists when they attack us.

Nobody loves Gordon Brown. Gordon Brown is a fat commie tosser who nobody likes and who couldn't manage my washing up. I would rather gladly swear fealty to the Queen because she is the leader of our country but she is not a political figure. Her political views are largely unknown and she doesn't present policy that I might agree or disagree with. I would never, ever swear fealty to an elected politician. I would rather be exiled.

God Save the Queen etc

Oh and btw, TSR has a Monarchist Society led by yours truly (and I think Collingwood is a Soc leader) that you can join if you feel like it. It's rather large as far as TSR Socs go. http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=606395
Reply 78
The Royals don't cost the taxpayer a penny. The amount is paid from the Crown Estates which the Queen gave to the government in return for an income each year. The estates produce far more than £37m a year so the Royals are actually subsidising the rest of us.

If you want to see where your money goes, consider the billions spent by the government on needless administration.

Has anyone done any research on the value to Britain of the Royal family in terms of tourism? Many tourists come because of our heritage/history, which is part of our 'brand' overseas. The Royal Family is central to that brand. By how much would tourist receipts drop if we were a republic? We'd still have the palaces and castles, but there would surely be some damage to the brand. On balance, I'm a (very) reluctant monarchist - don't like the people, don't like the values, but I welcome the money they bring to the UK.
Reply 79
Bagration
The idea of a British President sickens and disgusts me.

You know, we had this argument in a public law seminar, or rather whether the Queen could reasonably refuse royal assent. Would there be an uprising? Considering that the Monarchy is, by % of polled inhabitants, twice as popular as the Government, who knows...? People love the Queen. They actually love her. Even natives deep in the jungles of Borneo have pictures of her on the walls of their longhouses. The Queen is our Head of State. She represents our country in a fair and just manner. She is not politically biased but not afraid to stand up for democracy and to attack terrorists when they attack us.

Nobody loves Gordon Brown. Gordon Brown is a fat commie tosser who nobody likes and who couldn't manage my washing up. I would rather gladly swear fealty to the Queen because she is the leader of our country but she is not a political figure. Her political views are largely unknown and she doesn't present policy that I might agree or disagree with. I would never, ever swear fealty to an elected politician. I would rather be exiled.

God Save the Queen etc

Oh and btw, TSR has a Monarchist Society led by yours truly (and I think Collingwood is a Soc leader) that you can join if you feel like it. It's rather large as far as TSR Socs go. http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=606395


:laugh:

The people might love the monarch right now, but the people nearly fell completely out of love with her after Diana's death and Charles commands nowhere near as much admiration or even respect.

I think if the people had to choose between Charles and an Irish-style ceremonial president (the equivalent of an elected monarch), Charles would definitely struggle. Unfortunately for monarchists, we can't hold on to Elizabeth forever nor do we have any say in the line of succession.

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