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The bumper thread of University League Tables discussion - includes an info post

Reply 1960

Before I start, I should point out that I am not an elitist snob who goes on league tables as the be all and end all.

http://registrarism.wordpress.com/2011/09/09/sunday-times-2012-university-league-table/#comment-3045

This is the league table top 20, as originally published by the Sunday Times.

There have been some huge changes this year, which is very unusual. In particular, what has happened to Imperial? What I don't understand is how on earth can an elite institution go from being the 3rd best in the country, all the way down to 14th!?

I always thought that the Sunday Times was the 'best' most reliable guide, but, assuming that Imperial hasn't gone down the pan in the last year, this is the clearest sign to me that these tables should not be a significant influence in the choice of university, as they are misleading, and potentially very dangerous for prospective students.

Any thoughts?

I have a good friend who studied in Imperial, and while I do not think that 14th is a justifiably low ranking for them, they are having some funding problems in at least some of their departments like Biology, (wrapping up the botany departments, horrific course restructurings resulting in dissertation titles and supervisors and PhD ideas all backlogged). Perhaps its relying a little too heavily on course reputation on its own rather than teaching quality. Teaching quality is weighed heavier now in the new system, but Imperial have cut down many teachers and retained the lectures more heavily involved in pure 'research'.

But yeah its pretty harsh on them I have to say, but league tables don't give great consistent information and it fluctuates so much, domestically, and internationally.

Reply 1961

little_wizard123

19

Original post by Johnny Luk

Perhaps its relying a little too heavily on course reputation on its own rather than teaching quality.

It's funny how on that same link it shows the world table, with Imperial 6th :lol:

A lot of Universities do, to be honest. Lots of people will apply to places based on 'reputation' with a load of pre-University idiots coming into threads claiming that a University they applied to is 'better' based on reputation alone. Then they go there and realise that actually teaching etc. is important :rolleyes:

Reply 1962

username266244

18

Original post by little_wizard123

It's funny how on that same link it shows the world table, with Imperial 6th :lol:

A lot of Universities do, to be honest. Lots of people will apply to places based on 'reputation' with a load of pre-University idiots coming into threads claiming that a University they applied to is 'better' based on reputation alone. Then they go there and realise that actually teaching etc. is important :rolleyes:

yeah I agree, especially at undergraduate level, pure research quality is actually a fairly minor factor if you don't know or teach the basics well. I am only, at my final year at Durham, finally using some of the so called 'cutting edge research' in my lectures, but in the first 2 years, its quite irrelevant. No doubt international rankings go through a completely different way. Its all the same though, if Uni rankings go up, plaster it around the website as a marketing tool, if its down, criticise its credentials :smile:

Reply 1963

street.lovin'

17

Is there any way that we can get access to the full league table on Sunday Times ?

Reply 1964

Vitamin D

15

Original post by street.lovin'

Is there any way that we can get access to the full league table on Sunday Times ?

Not unless you pay for it.

Reply 1965

SpicyStrawberry

18

Other universities may be improving at a faster rate than Imperial, or they are using different criteria this year? (I've not looked at it yet)

Reply 1966

River85

17

Original post by tom29whu

x

I've merged your thread (and its replies) into the league table sticky. Feel free to check Sunday's, Monday's and Tuesday's discussion from earlier in the week if you're interested.

Original post by dropbeats-notbombs

I'd say the Sunday Times was the most accurate because it actually takes teaching into account, which is important for undergrads. But it still doesn't leave out general stuff like satisfaction, prospects etc.

Meant to mention this yesterday, and Quady has already covered it, but the inclusion of teaching is good in theory. However, the data used from my department is from their last assessment which was ten years ago now. It was three years old before I even started my undergraduate studies.

It's not better than the Guardian's which (I think) attempts to include teaching but does so through student satisfaction instead of professional, external assessments.

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 1967

xuntu

10

Can anybody post Sunday Times's Top 10 for Electrical and Electronic Engineering ?

Manchester is ranked 1st I think read it somewhere.

Thankyou

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 1968

.ACS.

19

Original post by xuntu

Can anybody post Sunday Times's Top 10 for Electrical and Electronic Engineering ?

Manchester is ranked 1st I think read it somewhere.

Thankyou

Does the Sunday Times now do subject-specific league tables??

Reply 1969

River85

17

Original post by .ACS.

Does the Sunday Times now do subject-specific league tables??

It has for a while. Well, since last year at the very least.

Reply 1970

xuntu

10

Original post by .ACS.

Does the Sunday Times now do subject-specific league tables??

Yes.

Reply 1971

tom29whu

2

Original post by River85

I've merged your thread (and its replies) into the league table sticky. Feel free to check Sunday's, Monday's and Tuesday's discussion from earlier in the week if you're interested.

Meant to mention this yesterday, and Quady has already covered it, but the inclusion of teaching is good in theory. However, the data used from my department is from their last assessment which was ten years ago now. It was three years old before I even started my undergraduate studies.

It's not better than the Guardian's which (I think) attempts to include teaching but does so through student satisfaction instead of professional, external assessments.

Thanks, I didn't realise there was another discussion going on here. I'll take a look

Reply 1972

Kronic

1

Just wanted to know what people thought about this.

Do you think the university rankings matter? Or is a degree just a degree, no matter where it's from?

Reply 1973

Stardust Mirage

10

No so let's all go London met.

Reply 1974

TheDubs

2

My thought on the situation, based on what ive seen and heard, is that:

1) In terms of getting a good degree (As in your final honours/grade), it shouldnt matter overly much as long as you are determined.

2)It does matter a fair bit in the jobs market. If your job in human resources is to filter through a bunch of candidates on a longlist for a job, and you a candidate with 'Oxford' or 'Warwick' compared to a 'Croydon university' - theres not much explaining to say who will be on the shortlist. Theres also the fact that theres 'accredited' uni's which can be useful if you want to go into the industry your degree specialises in.

Reply 1975

username306617

14

What is important is your university's links to industry, opportunities that they offer, and that the course teaches you vital skills that employers want.
However unis who have these things tend to be closer to the top of the table anyway.

Reply 1976

Zottula

16

If there's a massive difference in ranking then there's usually a good reason for that and it's clear there is a difference. However, when you are talking within 10 places of each other I doubt it matters that much. It's not as simple as just overall rankings though. Subject tables can be different, different tables can be different. Other things matter such as whether a course is accredited or not. Some courses have better links with industries and some courses ranking doesn't matter, such as medicine. Employers are interested in other things, not just your degree and university, so it's not the be all and end all, but I think it's misleading to say that a degree in the same subject is equal everywhere.

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 1977

Jabberwox

16

Original post by Kronic

Just wanted to know what people thought about this.

Do you think the university rankings matter? Or is a degree just a degree, no matter where it's from?

I suppose they do. But I don't like to see it that way as most of the universities I am applying to are around the middle of the league tables, purely because they're the only ones which do my course :tongue:

Obviously if you graduated from Oxbridge or one of the top 20 then I believe you would get favoured over someone who came from a lesser university. But don't go to a university purely on the basis of league tables; that is kind of superficial. Go because you get an excellent feel from it and you feel that they teach your course well :smile:

Reply 1978

River85

17

Original post by TheDubs

My thought on the situation, based on what ive seen and heard, is that:

1) In terms of getting a good degree (As in your final honours/grade), it shouldnt matter overly much as long as you are determined.

There's a lot to say for a supportive department, however, which makes things decidely more easy and less stress free. Someone with determination, at a not very supportive department, may still complete the degree but is at risk of burn out or failing. Take a student with disabilities whose department fails to make legally required reasonable adjustments or, perhaps even worse, actually mocks the student.

Though you can find departments who offer limited support at top ranking department/universities of course. The drop out/completion rate shown on league tables isn't the most infallible indicator of how supportive a department is.

2)It does matter a fair bit in the jobs market. If your job in human resources is to filter through a bunch of candidates on a longlist for a job, and you a candidate with 'Oxford' or 'Warwick' compared to a 'Croydon university' - theres not much explaining to say who will be on the shortlist. Theres also the fact that theres 'accredited' uni's which can be useful if you want to go into the industry your degree specialises in.

Such filtering happens, although relatively rare. But this still doesn't really answer the question, it just so happens that the universities filtered out are towards the end of the league tables. It doesn't mean that employers use league tables to determine who they should employ, and that a graduate from a university ranked 30th will be filtered out/not be as favoured as one ranked 10th.

Reply 1979

TheDubs

2

Original post by River85

Such filtering happens, although relatively rare. But this still doesn't really answer the question, it just so happens that the universities filtered out are towards the end of the league tables. It doesn't mean that employers use league tables to determine who they should employ, and that a graduate from a university ranked 30th will be filtered out/not be as favoured as one ranked 10th.

I'd say it happens a fair bit! Although it isnt as dramatic as a someone being rejected for being a uni say below 70th in the rankings, it does undenyably, atleast indirectly, effect the decision making process. Perhaps not so much in an industry, where its grades that would come first. However for most job lines, if they are looking to narrow down applicants (I say that both based on common sense and seeing how the HR department in action one day in work experience!) on things like that. Longlists are there for almost any job, from applying to an office to even your standard working in next job in some area's.

However, thats not to say uni rankings account for that much. Thats just my input.

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