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Original post by WaltzvWendt
I hold no responsibility on the outcome! 
Original post by apotoftea
Wait. First years get an 'academic writing tutor'? Is this because of such low standards of essays or what?
Have to say my experience of undergrad essays was that advice was available if you were prepared to be an adult and actually ask for it. No hands being held and people in my year did fail some first year assignments. Referencing wise, it was all in the handbook which you ignored at your peril. Remember a comment on a friend's third year essay saying 'good referencing but refer to handbook again.... Never mind, it's too late for you'
Have to say my experience of undergrad essays was that advice was available if you were prepared to be an adult and actually ask for it. No hands being held and people in my year did fail some first year assignments. Referencing wise, it was all in the handbook which you ignored at your peril. Remember a comment on a friend's third year essay saying 'good referencing but refer to handbook again.... Never mind, it's too late for you'
I'm probably the world's best question-asker/lecturer interrupter/academic pesterer, but that doesn't mean that I got any of the important information about argumentation structure and such things from anybody until second year.
The supervision system is fantastic, but its also idiosyncratic. Supervisors come in all shapes and sizes and they especially differ on the sorts of things they think they need to inform you about, so that somehow nobody in my first year ever communicated on this issue adequately, whereas somebody I had for one of my papers in second year really helped just by being alot more specific with her criticisms than many others had been. Some people are helping you as best as they can but they don't necessarily know what level of detail to go into or whether they're communicating well.
Original post by Craghyrax
I'm probably the world's best question-asker/lecturer interrupter/academic pesterer, but that doesn't mean that I got any of the important information about argumentation structure and such things from anybody until second year.
The supervision system is fantastic, but its also idiosyncratic. Supervisors come in all shapes and sizes and they especially differ on the sorts of things they think they need to inform you about, so that somehow nobody in my first year ever communicated on this issue adequately, whereas somebody I had for one of my papers in second year really helped just by being alot more specific with her criticisms than many others had been. Some people are helping you as best as they can but they don't necessarily know what level of detail to go into or whether they're communicating well.
I'm probably the world's best question-asker/lecturer interrupter/academic pesterer, but that doesn't mean that I got any of the important information about argumentation structure and such things from anybody until second year.
The supervision system is fantastic, but its also idiosyncratic. Supervisors come in all shapes and sizes and they especially differ on the sorts of things they think they need to inform you about, so that somehow nobody in my first year ever communicated on this issue adequately, whereas somebody I had for one of my papers in second year really helped just by being alot more specific with her criticisms than many others had been. Some people are helping you as best as they can but they don't necessarily know what level of detail to go into or whether they're communicating well.
Not a chance in hell. I am well known throughout the EFA department. As an actual fact, they talk about me and I e-mail them constantly
That's a pretty significant achievement in a university where students are more anonymous in larger classes. Teachers I have never even MET greet me when I pass by.
Academics never agree with each other though
Eeee, I am applying for a type of Doctorate which my be the solution to both my funding, location and time issues. Its an EngD, which you do mostly with your sponsor company (the company I'm currently working for had provisionally agreed to do this) and some taught elements in Surrey every few months for a few days. This means I can keep my current job, and get a doctorate, if I get in. Its also funded by the EPSRC, so if I get in, I'm guaranteed a stipend. Too good to be true?
Well nice to know that I'm not the only one 
TSR, and the UK in general have this silly hatred of people who ask questions in lectures, or show any initiative at all, and an accompanying paranoia about doing any such things themselves. It was so refreshing for me to move from undergrad to postgrad, where there are only 7 UK students out of 32, and consequently most people are really engaged and participative, which is so much better!
TSR, and the UK in general have this silly hatred of people who ask questions in lectures, or show any initiative at all, and an accompanying paranoia about doing any such things themselves. It was so refreshing for me to move from undergrad to postgrad, where there are only 7 UK students out of 32, and consequently most people are really engaged and participative, which is so much better!
Original post by scarlet ibis
Eeee, I am applying for a type of Doctorate which my be the solution to both my funding, location and time issues. Its an EngD, which you do mostly with your sponsor company (the company I'm currently working for had provisionally agreed to do this) and some taught elements in Surrey every few months for a few days. This means I can keep my current job, and get a doctorate, if I get in. Its also funded by the EPSRC, so if I get in, I'm guaranteed a stipend. Too good to be true?
Ohhh that sounds so exciting! I hope you get it!
Original post by Craghyrax
Well nice to know that I'm not the only one TSR, and the UK in general have this silly hatred of people who ask questions in lectures, or show any initiative at all, and an accompanying paranoia about doing any such things themselves. It was so refreshing for me to move from undergrad to postgrad, where there are only 7 UK students out of 32, and consequently most people are really engaged and participative, which is so much better!
TSR, and the UK in general have this silly hatred of people who ask questions in lectures, or show any initiative at all, and an accompanying paranoia about doing any such things themselves. It was so refreshing for me to move from undergrad to postgrad, where there are only 7 UK students out of 32, and consequently most people are really engaged and participative, which is so much better!I don't think it's just an issue of engagement - I get annoyed in lectures when people ask questions that cause the lecturer to either go further than is required or stay on a point for ages. While often it's good because it clarifies something or helps us to understand something, it's seems quite often to me (in econ lectures) to be something of interest to only one person that 50 people have to sit through. To me, this is what classes/tutorials are for.
Original post by Drogue
I don't think it's just an issue of engagement - I get annoyed in lectures when people ask questions that cause the lecturer to either go further than is required or stay on a point for ages. While often it's good because it clarifies something or helps us to understand something, it's seems quite often to me (in econ lectures) to be something of interest to only one person that 50 people have to sit through. To me, this is what classes/tutorials are for.
I was including that in my generalisation. I am annoyed that english people are annoyed by people getting involved in lectures. It is very refreshing for me that the people I share a course with are not only interested in participating and making comments or asking questions, but that they - like me - see teaching as an interactive process and (especially in a social science) as an opportunity to discuss and go deeper into points that might be of further interest. In my year nobody minds if somebody spends a bit longer on that point, in fact sometimes people go to eachother afterwards and say 'I'm so glad you asked or commented on that detail, I also wanted it unpacked/challenged/problematised a bit more'.
I think its also partly an issue of academic competence. We are not going to lectures because we know nothing and we want somebody to teach us something. In my subject the vast majority of learning happens in your own reading time. Lectures are really boring and indeed a waste of time when all the person does is give an overview which you could have read about in far more detail in that same two hours. Its nice that other people on my course now feel the same way and that most of them are not complete n00bs to the topics being taught (because its postgrad) and therefore already have positions, ideas and interesting recommendations for wider facts/studies/concepts to bring to the discussion.
I appreciate that this sort of thing varies by discipline, but I'm sure one big difference between your subject and mine is that classes are smaller. We are 32 on my MPhil, and in my final year of undergrad we were often 10 - 25 in a class.
Also you say that classes and tutorials are for this sort of thing, but remember that Oxford and Cambridge supervisions are fairly unusual. Most Universities don't have tutorials that would go into advanced detail on a particular topic, and even at Cambridge we don't actually have undergraduate styled regular supervisions. Our classes are pretty much all we have for sharing and debating the material we're covering.
(edited 13 years ago)
I suppose it depends on your subject; I do not know why some of the European and international students even bother attending classes, because they never contribute anything. In fact, the only time the international students have spoken in class is when they were forced to introduce themselves in the first couple of weeks; the European students occasionally talk to the lecturer after a lesson in their own language, which seems to me to defeat the point of studying in Britain.
Original post by Craghyrax
I was including that in my generalisation. I am annoyed that english people are annoyed by people getting involved in lectures. It is very refreshing for me that the people I share a course with are not only interested in participating and making comments or asking questions, but that they - like me - see teaching as an interactive process and (especially in a social science) as an opportunity to discuss and go deeper into points that might be of further interest. In my year nobody minds if somebody spends a bit longer on that point, in fact sometimes people go to eachother afterwards and say 'I'm so glad you asked or commented on that detail, I also wanted it unpacked/challenged/problematised a bit more'.
I think its also partly an issue of academic competence. We are not going to lectures because we know nothing and we want somebody to teach us something. In my subject the vast majority of learning happens in your own reading time. Lectures are really boring and indeed a waste of time when all the person does is give an overview which you could have read about in far more detail in that same two hours. Its nice that other people on my course now feel the same way and that most of them are not complete n00bs to the topics being taught (because its postgrad) and therefore already have positions, ideas and interesting recommendations for wider facts/studies/concepts to bring to the discussion.
I appreciate that this sort of thing varies by discipline, but I'm sure one big difference between your subject and mine is that classes are smaller. We are 32 on my MPhil, and in my final year of undergrad we were often 10 - 25 in a class.
Also you say that classes and tutorials are for this sort of thing, but remember that Oxford and Cambridge supervisions are fairly unusual. Most Universities don't have tutorials that would go into advanced detail on a particular topic, and even at Cambridge we don't actually have undergraduate styled regular supervisions. Our classes are pretty much all we have for sharing and debating the material we're covering.
I think its also partly an issue of academic competence. We are not going to lectures because we know nothing and we want somebody to teach us something. In my subject the vast majority of learning happens in your own reading time. Lectures are really boring and indeed a waste of time when all the person does is give an overview which you could have read about in far more detail in that same two hours. Its nice that other people on my course now feel the same way and that most of them are not complete n00bs to the topics being taught (because its postgrad) and therefore already have positions, ideas and interesting recommendations for wider facts/studies/concepts to bring to the discussion.
I appreciate that this sort of thing varies by discipline, but I'm sure one big difference between your subject and mine is that classes are smaller. We are 32 on my MPhil, and in my final year of undergrad we were often 10 - 25 in a class.
Also you say that classes and tutorials are for this sort of thing, but remember that Oxford and Cambridge supervisions are fairly unusual. Most Universities don't have tutorials that would go into advanced detail on a particular topic, and even at Cambridge we don't actually have undergraduate styled regular supervisions. Our classes are pretty much all we have for sharing and debating the material we're covering.
Yeah, I can understand in a discursive subject why this would be a lot more appropriate. With my masters, lectures are about being taught the stuff and it's mostly maths-based, so there's little discussion to be had and lectures already run virtually to time without that. Though we have a clear distinction between lectures with about 50 people in being talked at and classes with about 25 that, while still the lecturer goes through problems and talks at us, it's expected to have more student involvement. People asking stuff in lectures is either because they don't get it (which if the rest of the class does get it, can be better done one-on-one with the lecturer) or because they want to go further than the masters requires (in which case it's also better done one-on-one, so as not to confuse others or take their time when they don't want to do extra stuff), rather than wanting to discuss an opinion.
I guess this is one of the cases where economics acts more like a science, in being taught how rather than being discursive.
Original post by Drogue
Yeah, I can understand in a discursive subject why this would be a lot more appropriate. With my masters, lectures are about being taught the stuff and it's mostly maths-based, so there's little discussion to be had and lectures already run virtually to time without that. Though we have a clear distinction between lectures with about 50 people in being talked at and classes with about 25 that, while still the lecturer goes through problems and talks at us, it's expected to have more student involvement. People asking stuff in lectures is either because they don't get it (which if the rest of the class does get it, can be better done one-on-one with the lecturer) or because they want to go further than the masters requires (in which case it's also better done one-on-one, so as not to confuse others or take their time when they don't want to do extra stuff), rather than wanting to discuss an opinion.
I guess this is one of the cases where economics acts more like a science, in being taught how rather than being discursive.
I guess this is one of the cases where economics acts more like a science, in being taught how rather than being discursive.
Well there are some things where its about learning. For instance all the research methods training. But even then, our lecturers find ways to make it interactive, which is great. I'd fall asleep in stats if the teacher didn't stop every 15 mins or so to get us to guess at what a strange outcome on a graph might suggest.
Original post by Craghyrax
Well nice to know that I'm not the only one TSR, and the UK in general have this silly hatred of people who ask questions in lectures, or show any initiative at all, and an accompanying paranoia about doing any such things themselves. It was so refreshing for me to move from undergrad to postgrad, where there are only 7 UK students out of 32, and consequently most people are really engaged and participative, which is so much better!
TSR, and the UK in general have this silly hatred of people who ask questions in lectures, or show any initiative at all, and an accompanying paranoia about doing any such things themselves. It was so refreshing for me to move from undergrad to postgrad, where there are only 7 UK students out of 32, and consequently most people are really engaged and participative, which is so much better!The UK have a tendancy to hate people who ask questions?? Students shout at one another for it here...
Original post by wes
The UK have a tendancy to hate people who ask questions?? Students shout at one another for it here...
There being...?
Original post by Craghyrax
There being...?
Well, I wasn't referring to any particular there. The specific here would be France, or more specifically my school...
Original post by wes
Well, I wasn't referring to any particular there. The specific here would be France, or more specifically my school...
Heh, well I think I'll optimise my French experience by enjoying the culture exactly where I am and reading translated works of good theorists from afar
(Not that my French is good enough to give me a choice on that score...)
Original post by apotoftea
Wait. First years get an 'academic writing tutor'? Is this because of such low standards of essays or what?
Have to say my experience of undergrad essays was that advice was available if you were prepared to be an adult and actually ask for it. No hands being held and people in my year did fail some first year assignments. Referencing wise, it was all in the handbook which you ignored at your peril. Remember a comment on a friend's third year essay saying 'good referencing but refer to handbook again.... Never mind, it's too late for you'
Have to say my experience of undergrad essays was that advice was available if you were prepared to be an adult and actually ask for it. No hands being held and people in my year did fail some first year assignments. Referencing wise, it was all in the handbook which you ignored at your peril. Remember a comment on a friend's third year essay saying 'good referencing but refer to handbook again.... Never mind, it's too late for you'
Aye well it's all changed now, so it has!
Not really, it's basically a new initiative in one specific department (management), because they've had problems getting their students up to speed in their first year - students studying that subject tend to be less 'academic' than other York students, because the department has lower entry grades and tends to attract a lot of students who hate writing and find it difficult, apparently. So they've taken on about 20 PhD students from other departments to take take groups through a year-long module, giving them writing seminars and essay feedback.
As for the 'being adult and asking for support' / reading the handbook for referencing guidelines - that sort of behaviour is alien to most of my students from what I've seen so far. We're almost half way through the term now, and one of my students had not only not visited the library once (even though she's had to write three or four essays so far
), she didn't know where it was. I underline this because it's the big building bang in the centre of campus with the word 'LIBRARY' written on it. None of them knew that they were supposed to reference anything anyway, and none knew about degree classifications - it makes me wonder what their lecturers have actually been teaching them so far 
Original post by the_alba
. We're almost half way through the term now, and one of my students had not only not visited the library once (even though she's had to write three or four essays so far ), she didn't know where it was. I underline this because it's the big building bang in the centre of campus with the word 'LIBRARY' written on it. None of them knew that they were supposed to reference anything anyway, and none knew about degree classifications - it makes me wonder what their lecturers have actually been teaching them so far
), she didn't know where it was. I underline this because it's the big building bang in the centre of campus with the word 'LIBRARY' written on it. None of them knew that they were supposed to reference anything anyway, and none knew about degree classifications - it makes me wonder what their lecturers have actually been teaching them so far I went my whole first year without visiting the library
I did know where it was though! And I used my college library, So it wasn't *that* bad.
Original post by Becca
I bet you they want to be babied. In my experience as a course rep in final year, the most complaints I got were from one module where the lecturer had recently moved from America and was offering very little guidance (at least not as much as british-educated students were used to!). I'd also say never presume people have knowledge of anything, even if they are at university.
I was teaching Business English yesterday, a lesson on phone conversations and etiquette. I thought the section where we listened to people spelling out their names would take max 10 minutes, it ended up taking 40, including 5 minutes of saying the alphabet over and over again
I was teaching Business English yesterday, a lesson on phone conversations and etiquette. I thought the section where we listened to people spelling out their names would take max 10 minutes, it ended up taking 40, including 5 minutes of saying the alphabet over and over again
Original post by WaltzvWendt
It may be an appalling thing to admit (thank god for internet anonymity!), but when I was a first year I found the essay writing portions of this book extremely useful. And in the end, it did what was promised to me.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Get-First-Essential-Routledge/dp/0415317339/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_i#reader_0415317339
So you may suggest it or get a hold of it yourself and base a seminar on those chapters.
Also, one way I've done passive how-to-write-an-essay-teaching as a long-term strategy is to make up an essay question around the topic of a seminar. Go through how to pick apart the question with them, and then formulate a discussion around what the key concepts are, what the contention is, guiding the arguments and how to synthesize a conclusion from the collaborative class discussion. My room had a whiteboard so that helped a lot.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Get-First-Essential-Routledge/dp/0415317339/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_i#reader_0415317339
So you may suggest it or get a hold of it yourself and base a seminar on those chapters.
Also, one way I've done passive how-to-write-an-essay-teaching as a long-term strategy is to make up an essay question around the topic of a seminar. Go through how to pick apart the question with them, and then formulate a discussion around what the key concepts are, what the contention is, guiding the arguments and how to synthesize a conclusion from the collaborative class discussion. My room had a whiteboard so that helped a lot.
Thanks for your advice guys
You were right, they were deer in the headlights and wanted all the babying they could get. WaltzvWendt, books like that are such a gift to writing tutors (I've now discovered) - you can basically just adapt your seminars directly from chapters, and it's not even cheating because it's not as if any of my students are going to check these books out themselves - they're too lazy. So thanks for the tip!Original post by the_alba
Thanks for your advice guys You were right, they were deer in the headlights and wanted all the babying they could get. WaltzvWendt, books like that are such a gift to writing tutors (I've now discovered) - you can basically just adapt your seminars directly from chapters, and it's not even cheating because it's not as if any of my students are going to check these books out themselves - they're too lazy. So thanks for the tip!
You were right, they were deer in the headlights and wanted all the babying they could get. WaltzvWendt, books like that are such a gift to writing tutors (I've now discovered) - you can basically just adapt your seminars directly from chapters, and it's not even cheating because it's not as if any of my students are going to check these books out themselves - they're too lazy. So thanks for the tip!Glad it was helpful!
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