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Learning German language: The German Learners' Society (MKII)

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Original post by Inexorably
Oh so one is simply a form of werden and the other of sein?

That seems..easy...which is suspicious :tongue:


yep, 'werden' - Vorgangspassiv (Vorgang = process)
'sein' - Zustandspassiv

wird geöffnet
ist geöffnet

and to confirm your suspicion, there is a change of tenses between the active sentence and the corresponding statal passive sentence.
That's because the Vorgangspassiv focuses on the process which is in the same tense as the active sentence.

Der Mechaniker reparierte den Motor. aktiv, Präteritum

Der Motor wurde repariert. Vorgangspassiv, Präteritum

whereas the Zustandspassiv focuses on the result, which comes temporally after the process, hence the change of tenses.

Der Motor ist repariert. Zustandspassiv, Präsens

another example:
Er hatte das Fenster geöffnet. aktiv, Plusquamperfekt
Das Fenster war geöffnet worden. Vorgangspassiv, Plusquamperfekt

BUT: Das Fenster war geöffnet. Zustandspassiv, Präteritum
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by grizzlybär
yep, 'werden' - Vorgangspassiv (Vorgang = process)
'sein' - Zustandspassiv

wird geöffnet
ist geöffnet

and to confirm your suspicion, there is a change of tenses between the active sentence and the corresponding statal passive sentence.
That's because the Vorgangspassiv focuses on the process which is in the same tense as the active sentence.

Der Mechaniker reparierte den Motor. aktiv, Präteritum

Der Motor wurde repariert. Vorgangspassiv, Präteritum

whereas the Zustandspassiv focuses on the result, which comes temporally after the process, hence the change of tenses.

Der Motor ist repariert. Zustandspassiv, Präsens

another example:
Er hatte das Fenster geöffnet. aktiv, Plusquamperfekt
Das Fenster war geöffnet worden. Vorgangspassiv, Plusquamperfekt

BUT: Das Fenster war geöffnet. Zustandspassiv, Präteritum


Aha I knew there would be more too it :wink: That still seems simple enough and I did do some googling to go over it as well.

But I can't help but feel it just seems to be acting more like an adjectival phrase or alike. Using your example of the Motor, it looks like it's just saying that the motor is repaired [adj.].

I assume this concept doesn't exist in English, or I'm just confusing myself then? :colondollar:
Original post by Inexorably
Aha I knew there would be more too it :wink: That still seems simple enough and I did do some googling to go over it as well.

But I can't help but feel it just seems to be acting more like an adjectival phrase or alike. Using your example of the Motor, it looks like it's just saying that the motor is repaired [adj.].

I assume this concept doesn't exist in English, or I'm just confusing myself then? :colondollar:


How about: Die Küche ist aufgeräumt. The kitchen is cleaned.
Die Küche wird aufgeräumt. The kitchen is being cleaned.
Original post by grizzlybär
How about: Die Küche ist aufgeräumt. The kitchen is cleaned.
Die Küche wird aufgeräumt. The kitchen is being cleaned.


The examples still make sense and I understand how they're used, but they do kinda sound just like adjective phrases to me xD

It's something I'll have to adjust to.
Original post by grizzlybär
that's because a distinction is made between 'Zustandspassiv' und 'Vorgangspassiv'.
e.g.
active: Peter schloss das Fenster.
Vorgangspassiv: Das Fenster wurde geschlossen.
Zustandspassiv: Das Fenster ist/war geschlossen.


Ah, I see. Boy, sometimes I am so glad that German is my native language. So many rules of grammar and so many differences in it. I can really understand why it is so difficult for foreigners to learn that language to be perfect in it.
Original post by Inexorably
The examples still make sense and I understand how they're used, but they do kinda sound just like adjective phrases to me xD

It's something I'll have to adjust to.


Guten Morgen!

I'm helping you to adjust by giving an exercise.
I'm giving you two sentences in active voice and you form the two passive voices to each sentence.

1. Peter schloss das Fenster.
2. Susanne zerbrach eine Tasse.
Original post by Kallisto
Ah, I see. Boy, sometimes I am so glad that German is my native language. So many rules of grammar and so many differences in it. I can really understand why it is so difficult for foreigners to learn that language to be perfect in it.


My thoughts exactly! :biggrin:
Original post by grizzlybär
My thoughts exactly! :biggrin:


Isn't that so? English language has lesser vocabularies to learn and simpler grammar to master. In comparison to English, German is so laborious sometimes.
Original post by Kallisto
Isn't that so? English language has lesser vocabularies to learn and simpler grammar to master. In comparison to English, German is so laborious sometimes.


The English language has its pitfalls. Think about pronunciation! or spelling!
often, there is no logic to it.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by grizzlybär
Guten Morgen!

I'm helping you to adjust by giving an exercise.
I'm giving you two sentences in active voice and you form the two passive voices to each sentence.

1. Peter schloss das Fenster.
2. Susanne zerbrach eine Tasse.


1a. Das Fenster wurde [von Peter] geschlossen.
1b. Das Fenster war geschlossen.

2a. Eine Tasse wurde [von Susanne] zerbrochen.
2b. Eine Tasse war zerbrochen.

Right?
And yes, English pronunciation/spelling is completely bizarre :tongue:
Original post by Inexorably
1a. Das Fenster wurde [von Peter] geschlossen.
1b. Das Fenster war geschlossen.

2a. Eine Tasse wurde [von Susanne] zerbrochen.
2b. Eine Tasse war zerbrochen.

Right?


almost, you forgot the change in tenses with statal passive.
na, forget the change in tenses, it is right.
I think, the change in tenses only matters when in context.

Das Fenster wurde geschlossen. an action that happend in the past
as a result: Das Fenster ist geschlossen.
Original post by grizzlybär
almost, you forgot the change in tenses with statal passive.
na, forget the change in tenses, it is right.
I think, the change in tenses only matters when in context.

Das Fenster wurde geschlossen. an action that happend in the past
as a result: Das Fenster ist geschlossen.


Oh good :tongue:!
Original post by Inexorably
And yes, English pronunciation/spelling is completely bizarre :tongue:


You say that as an English native speaker? I am a bit astonished. Yeah, I admit there are words now and then which are not so easily to handle in pronounciation, but the most of them indeed. And that is a lot to have a clear pronounciation and to be understandable for English native speakers.
Original post by Kallisto
You say that as an English native speaker? I am a bit astonished. Yeah, I admit there are words now and then which are not so easily to handle in pronounciation, but the most of them indeed. And that is a lot to have a clear pronounciation and to be understandable for English native speakers.


Yes, as an English speaker I am 100% aware of how completely weird our pronunciation & spelling is - the mere word pronunciation is an example as it loses the o from 'pronounce'.

There are plenty of words in our language which have accepted multiple ways of being pronounced as well. z.B.

Sloth - sl-o-th or slow-th
Bath - bar-th or baa-th
Neither - nee-th-ur or ni-th-ur

I think this quote illustrates our weird pronunciation the best :tongue: :

Yes, English can be weird. It can be understood through (oo) tough (uff), thorough (oh) thought (or), though (oh).

The brackets are my loose way of phonetically saying the 'ough' ending in each word :tongue:
Original post by Inexorably
Yes, as an English speaker I am 100% aware of how completely weird our pronunciation & spelling is - the mere word pronunciation is an example as it loses the o from 'pronounce'.

There are plenty of words in our language which have accepted multiple ways of being pronounced as well. z.B.

Sloth - sl-o-th or slow-th
Bath - bar-th or baa-th
Neither - nee-th-ur or ni-th-ur (...)


A German abbreviation? are there no ones in English? that is irritating. Yeah, your examples are good, but not really a hindrance for people with experiences in making differences in speaking.
Original post by Kallisto
A German abbreviation? are there no ones in English? that is irritating. Yeah, your examples are good, but not really a hindrance for people with experiences in making differences in speaking.


Oops yes, I have a very bad habit of writing z.B. instead of e.g. now. (e.g. is the English equivalent).*

German has really messed with my mind x)

*which is a latin abbreviation for exempli gratia meaning 'for example'.
Original post by Inexorably
Yes, as an English speaker I am 100% aware of how completely weird our pronunciation & spelling is - the mere word pronunciation is an example as it loses the o from 'pronounce'.


This annoys me so much! Why couldn't the o just be left there!!!!!!!!!!!
Original post by Kamara7
This annoys me so much! Why couldn't the o just be left there!!!!!!!!!!!


Ikr, it's quite bizarre.

The same with Refrigerator > Fridge. It just appears out of nowhere :redface:
Original post by Inexorably
Oops yes, I have a very bad habit of writing z.B. instead of e.g. now. (e.g. is the English equivalent).*

German has really messed with my mind x)

*which is a latin abbreviation for exempli gratia meaning 'for example'.


I just keep writing "usw. usf." and no one probably understands what the hell I mean. :tongue: I even write it in college in my booklets and arguments online.

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