Registered Nurses/Nursing Students Chat Thread

Completely disagree on the intelligence part. You have to have some standard of logic and reasoning to be a decent nurse, but I agree that some people who qualify maybe are not suited to the job.

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I don't believe changing education standards will really make that much of a difference. Nursing isn't really an academic subject, and I say that with a heavy heart. You don't need to be particularly intelligent to be a nurse, which is why entry requirements can be so low. My university never gave any realistic view of what placements would be like, what hours we needed to commit or what support was available to us. A lot of people say doing HCA work gives you insight into being a nurse, while I think it's helpful, it doesn't really give you the feel of what being a nurse is.

We lost a bit over 100 students over the three years, and some of the people we lost would have made wonderful nurses, some who have stayed on and are getting their PINS are less than savoury. We had a large variable of high 2.i's and firsts to very low passes and fails, there was no in between, and I went to what most would consider quite an academic university. You've also got to understand some large nursing schools (like mine) receive a huge amount of funding for students, so they will recruit a many as possible without doing proper vetting of students. I don't believe nursing is like any other course offered by the British education system, you wont know what nursing is like unless you're actually doing it which leads to a lot of people leaving.

Just to clarify, I'm not proposing that we change all academic standards for nurse education, only create national standards for the application and interview process, i.e. so that the maths tests are the same whichever university is applied to.

I entirely disagree. Nursing IS an academic subject, and needs to be. First and foremost, every nurse needs to be able to give a rationale for their actions. Not only so they can justify what they are doing in their documentation or to their line manager, but so that if an incident occurs and they are quizzed in court, they can intellectually explain why they did what they did. Secondly, we now have ANPs and the like, many of whom have Masters degrees. High levels of education are needed to carry out their roles, such as prescribing, safely and effectively. Thirdly, the majority of the nurse lecturers we have are probably at least 50. By encouraging our nurses to be academic, we hopefully bring up a new generation of nurses, but also a new generation of academics, into education and research.

Of course, this academic ability shouldn't be chosen above compassion, but then we enter into the debate of care or competency? We need to aspire to both in our student workforce and I don't believe we always do - hence the unsavoury characters you refer to, receiving their PIN ( )

HCA work is helpful, but not comprehensive I agree. However, having worked in a role for my university where I engaged with many students interested in nursing, I saw firsthand the misconceptions teenagers have about nursing. Some of them, even at sixth form level and they're thinking of applying to nursing, don't realise the hours we work or that students don't get paid or that we encounter death etc etc. Although I never did any HCA work, I think it's a good indication of whether someone can handle nursing. The only issue is that those who have been HCAs are typically older, and while they bring life experience, they have partners, children, mortgages and other bills to pay which means they are far more likely to drop out. Also, their age doesn't promote longevity of the workforce. If they qualify when they're 45, they can offer us about 15 years work, which isn't a very good return on investment for the NHS who has paid tens of thousands to train them. The universities don't weigh up a student's potential for attrition when accepting people, and this should start to become a factor in deciding who gets offered a place.

For me, I don't think we understand the attrition enough. We need hard data on why people leave. Then we can identify attrition 'risk factors' and then better support students who get on the course, and avoid those who may probably end up dropping out anyway.

I am massively for standardising nursing education, all nursing students should learn the same material. But nursing is a majority of social science module, which are difficult to standardise. I would rather faculties focused on providing a stronger pathophysiological/pharmacological background, but this is unlikely to happen.

Nursing became a degree only profession when I was a second year, it hasn't had enough time to build itself into an academic science. Faculties themselves don't receive the level of funding for research like medicine or engineering do, most likely because nursing research is not yet taken at a serious enough level. I've met a lot of ANP's who are amazing at what they do, but becoming an ANP requires experience as well as additional qualifications, there aren't really young ANPs and you can become a nursing practitioner without doing masters, as long as you have long term acute experience.

There are lots of reasons why nursing went degree only, mostly because it didnt cost the government a penny, but also to encourage younger, brighter people to enter it. While I do agree older students are more likely to drop out, they are more likely to drop out due to financial or personal problems, they tend to have a realistic view of the course and whether or not they provide longevity to the NHS in my opinion is not important. Taxpayers paid loads of money for me to become a nurse, but at the most I'll only nurse for 2-3 years. I know people who want to move to Australia and Canada after getting a few years experience or outright enter other unrelated careers which they can do now they have a degree.

Universities will never give a realistic enough view of what nursing is like, that would turn too many people away. Nobody wants to do 13-14 hour shifts unpaid or be told they will struggle financially for three years. The government doesn't seem to care about the number of students who leave the course, all they care about is how many students get their PIN and start practicing.

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I would agree on including more A&P and pharmacology in the course. We didn't do enough of this, and I think many universities don't. Does including more of that not make the course more academic, though? Something which you said you didn't think nursing was...

Not all ANPs have Masters degrees, and that's not what I was implying. But many of them work at that level. Those who get the job without a Masters level qualification are often encouraged to undertake such study once they've started the role - and this is also stated in the job advert.

Only some mature students tend to have a realistic view. I found some in my cohort believed they should get special exemption from being late or missing placement because they had children. Having children shouldn't alter the fact that nursing is a professional course, where behaviour as such (Including exemplary punctuality and attendance) is expected all the time. As a side note, I also got the impression from some of them that they thought my life was 'easy' because I was 18-21 when I was studying, had no children, few bills etc, but they failed to recognise that moving away from home for the first time was a big change for me, emotionally and practically, and I didn't always find it 'easy'. I didn't like the attitude that I got from some of them, to be brutally honest.

As for longevity.... When it costs £70,000 to train one qualified nurse, there has to be significant consideration for the service that person will give back to the NHS to make the financial investment in them worthwhile. Any private sector company wouldn't dream of paying for £70,000 in training for someone to work for them if they thought they'd only last 5 years and then leave. Quite why the NHS views this differently, I don't know.

When I've engaged with potential student nurses, I tell them the ins and outs. I tell them about a child's dead body that I've seen, I tell them about the child that spat at me, the time a nappy leaked on me when I was soothing a baby to sleep. I tell them about the nights, the weekends, the lack of money. When they ask about pay, I tell them it's probably not enough for what we do, but that shouldn't matter because money isn't the primary motivation. From this, I've found about 10-15% per group are completely put off. But that's fine. If anything I'm doing them a favour. Universities perceive they won't get any applicants if they're honest but this isn't the case. Lets be generous, and say that 25% of all potential applicants are put off once they hear the reality. We're not going to be short of applicants, and every place will still be filled - just with better informed applicants. That's the key.

Adding more science would make the course more applicable to placement, I dont believe social sciences make the course less academic, its just doesnt feel like what we learn is relevant to the profession. Most nurses ive come across who studied abroad had a much higher standard of education, and its a shame we cant emulate that

I dont feel like ive met any mature students who took liberties because of their family situation. I have a lot of mature friends who Ive learnt a great deal from. Also younger students are less willing to perform basic care, I dont know why but there seems to be this attitude in the adult field where I have seen students and nurses try their best to avoid performing any personal hygiene. While im not saying mature students more readily do it, as a HCA i've noticed they are far more willing to help.

The NHS trusts have a good deal having students. Often students plug the staff shortages and act as HCAs, its not right but it happens. Ive been worked like a dog for the past three years unpaid, I dont owe them anything.

It would be nice to better inform people, I'm sure that would attract more people who view this profession realistically. But you dont experience nursing with words, you only experience nursing by doing. Maybe if unis or trusts offered nurse shadowing to prospective students they can get a feel of what nursing is actually like. Until then they can increase the bursary amount and improve working conditions.

but it is so crucial that we choose the right people to become nurses. Sadly, I don't think enough people see this :/

Agree experience needed. But only for those who can handle the 'words' (I feel I've done a lot more with students in my sessions than just 'words', but we'll run with it...) If I say "bodily fluids" to a group of teenagers interested in nursing, and they all massively cringe, there's probably little point wasting time and effort in them shadowing a nurse. Different NHS Trusts have different policies on volunteers and shadowers etc and this is something else that needs to be standardised nationally, while allowing prospective students the experience they need and not compromising patient care. My uni offered a summer school for 30 prospective nursing students, and I attended one elsewhere before I started, but these seem to be few and far between. They're certainly a step in the right direction though.

I don't believe changing education standards will really make that much of a difference. Nursing isn't really an academic subject, and I say that with a heavy heart. You don't need to be particularly intelligent to be a nurse, which is why entry requirements can be so low. My university never gave any realistic view of what placements would be like, what hours we needed to commit or what support was available to us. A lot of people say doing HCA work gives you insight into being a nurse, while I think it's helpful, it doesn't really give you the feel of what being a nurse is.

We lost a bit over 100 students over the three years, and some of the people we lost would have made wonderful nurses, some who have stayed on and are getting their PINS are less than savoury. We had a large variable of high 2.i's and firsts to very low passes and fails, there was no in between, and I went to what most would consider quite an academic university. You've also got to understand some large nursing schools (like mine) receive a huge amount of funding for students, so they will recruit a many as possible without doing proper vetting of students. I don't believe nursing is like any other course offered by the British education system, you wont know what nursing is like unless you're actually doing it which leads to a lot of people leaving.

I think I'd like to challenge your opinion that Nursing isn't particularly academic, yes, there are certainly many aspects to the job that simply cannot be taught, caring, empathy and common sense, however, I want to know that whatever nurse is caring for me has extensive knowledge in A&P, drug administration, and is confident enough in their own practice to put me at ease.

As a nurse, I would like to work with curious, intelligent and openminded colleagues, that know how to work successfully in a team, and can take constructive criticism with good grace and learn from past experiences.

I believe that University is the best place to learn, practice and hone these skills. Universities produce educated nurses that challenge and adapt with todays changing health care settings, what you are suggesting is just training up the HCA's to do our job on the cheap.

I would agree on including more A&P and pharmacology in the course. We didn't do enough of this, and I think many universities don't. Does including more of that not make the course more academic, though? Something which you said you didn't think nursing was...

Not all ANPs have Masters degrees, and that's not what I was implying. But many of them work at that level. Those who get the job without a Masters level qualification are often encouraged to undertake such study once they've started the role - and this is also stated in the job advert.

Only some mature students tend to have a realistic view. I found some in my cohort believed they should get special exemption from being late or missing placement because they had children. Having children shouldn't alter the fact that nursing is a professional course, where behaviour as such (Including exemplary punctuality and attendance) is expected all the time. As a side note, I also got the impression from some of them that they thought my life was 'easy' because I was 18-21 when I was studying, had no children, few bills etc, but they failed to recognise that moving away from home for the first time was a big change for me, emotionally and practically, and I didn't always find it 'easy'. I didn't like the attitude that I got from some of them, to be brutally honest.

As for longevity.... When it costs £70,000 to train one qualified nurse, there has to be significant consideration for the service that person will give back to the NHS to make the financial investment in them worthwhile. Any private sector company wouldn't dream of paying for £70,000 in training for someone to work for them if they thought they'd only last 5 years and then leave. Quite why the NHS views this differently, I don't know.

When I've engaged with potential student nurses, I tell them the ins and outs. I tell them about a child's dead body that I've seen, I tell them about the child that spat at me, the time a nappy leaked on me when I was soothing a baby to sleep. I tell them about the nights, the weekends, the lack of money. When they ask about pay, I tell them it's probably not enough for what we do, but that shouldn't matter because money isn't the primary motivation. From this, I've found about 10-15% per group are completely put off. But that's fine. If anything I'm doing them a favour. Universities perceive they won't get any applicants if they're honest but this isn't the case. Lets be generous, and say that 25% of all potential applicants are put off once they hear the reality. We're not going to be short of applicants, and every place will still be filled - just with better informed applicants. That's the key.

As a mature student (late 40's) with children, I've been interested in this part of the thread. It's a shame that you maybe have had a rough ride with some older colleagues. I'm not aware of any of my cohort behaving like that. In fact we are the ones who always attend lectures, are on time for placements and always look professional. Maybe we are in the minority!
I'd really like to know where you got the £70k statistic from though, I was under the impression that it was around £40k, which is still a lot of money. However, in my previous life I was a tax payer and therefore have directly and indirectly contributed to the NHS who are now paying my fees. The age at which someone retires is also being pushed further and further back. I don't see myself retiring until my late 60s, which will give the NHS at least 20 years service. Added to which, I've had my family and won't be taking a career break in order to have children.
Going back into education in your late 40's is a massive undertaking, financially and personally. You don't do that if you are not 100% committed to becoming a nurse.
So please don't tar all of us oldies with the same brush!

Our tuition fees are 14k (the trusts receive a 3rd of the tuition fees each year, hence more than other degrees tuition) and then the 1k bursary at least each year and then i think they include paying a mentors extra wage in that as well so it works out at about 20k+ per year according to my personal tutor.

I'm only on week one and i don't feel that any particular age group has any negative behaviours as a whole, some parents have complained about having to go to a lecture at a certain time after 4pm (this is a very few of them for sure but as we were warned of having lectures until 6pm at times it is a little disheartening when anyone thinks they shouldn't have to attend them) but then also have some of the younger students so i think it's a personality/commitment thing that doesn't matter what age/background you're from,its more the attitude of that person and how seriously or not they appear to take the course, if that makes sense?

I love the fact there are student nurses from so many different backgrounds and i think its brilliant if someone takes it on as a second career but i guess what paediatricstn was trying to say was that he feels that if someone (be it a 20 year old or someone in their 50's) has commitments alongside the course work/children and the like, they shouldn't be treated more favourably (get better placement hours/expect to be allowed to miss lectures due to not having arranged childcare) or tell people that don't that the course is easier for anyone as we don't have other commitments.
I don't think he meant to come across that he was tarring anyone with the same brush per say.

This was my decision and my responsibility. Not having any other commitments does make life a bit easier though. This is my second degree and is very different from when I left home and moved 300 miles north to take my first degree when I was 19, so I can compare the two experiences.

As a mature student (late 40's) with children, I've been interested in this part of the thread. It's a shame that you maybe have had a rough ride with some older colleagues. I'm not aware of any of my cohort behaving like that. In fact we are the ones who always attend lectures, are on time for placements and always look professional. Maybe we are in the minority!
I'd really like to know where you got the £70k statistic from though, I was under the impression that it was around £40k, which is still a lot of money. However, in my previous life I was a tax payer and therefore have directly and indirectly contributed to the NHS who are now paying my fees. The age at which someone retires is also being pushed further and further back. I don't see myself retiring until my late 60s, which will give the NHS at least 20 years service. Added to which, I've had my family and won't be taking a career break in order to have children.
Going back into education in your late 40's is a massive undertaking, financially and personally. You don't do that if you are not 100% committed to becoming a nurse.
So please don't tar all of us oldies with the same brush!

Our tuition fees are 14k (the trusts receive a 3rd of the tuition fees each year, hence more than other degrees tuition) and then the 1k bursary at least each year and then i think they include paying a mentors extra wage in that as well so it works out at about 20k+ per year according to my personal tutor.

I'm only on week one and i don't feel that any particular age group has any negative behaviours as a whole, some parents have complained about having to go to a lecture at a certain time after 4pm (this is a very few of them for sure but as we were warned of having lectures until 6pm at times it is a little disheartening when anyone thinks they shouldn't have to attend them) but then also have some of the younger students so i think it's a personality/commitment thing that doesn't matter what age/background you're from,its more the attitude of that person and how seriously or not they appear to take the course, if that makes sense?

I love the fact there are student nurses from so many different backgrounds and i think its brilliant if someone takes it on as a second career but i guess what paediatricstn was trying to say was that he feels that if someone (be it a 20 year old or someone in their 50's) has commitments alongside the course work/children and the like, they shouldn't be treated more favourably (get better placement hours/expect to be allowed to miss lectures due to not having arranged childcare) or tell people that don't that the course is easier for anyone as we don't have other commitments.
I don't think he meant to come across that he was tarring anyone with the same brush per say.

Umm, no. I am very pro university education, and I was really happy when it became a full university course. What I'm saying is that nursing is a new course that hasn't developed enough to become academic. Funding is put into nursing faculties to create student places, not provide books, equipment or allow lecturers to do research, which stops the course from being academic. Having a standardized set curriculum, that doesn't change every year allows the course to be academic. And I have said from the very start of my course, the modules we are taught are not relevant to practice. A&P, pharmacology, histology, pathology are all very important aspects of nursing but we are not given a comprehensive enough education to understand health and illness. I am a qualified nurse waiting for my PIN, but I still don't feel like I am well equipped to go onto wards, university and placements are supposed to prepare you to become professionals and right now that is not what they are doing.

And there is nothing wrong with training up HCA's who want to be nurses, as long as they do the degree.

Perhaps some self guided research before you start your new job on the wards might help? I know from my first degree, that if I didn't feel that my tutors were imparting as much knowledge as I felt was needed for my exams and assignments, further self directed study really helped me I'm starting my Pg Dip tomorrow and am completely prepared to bring this attitude to school again.