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The Liverpool FC Thread VIII
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Original post by Zerforax
1. He's been out of work for 17 months (fired 23 December 2010).
2. Since Inter won the treble - Rafael Benítez, Leonardo, Gasperini, Ranieri and now Stramaccioni. All in the space of 2 years. I think it's safe to say there is more wrong with the club than they dare admit it.
3. Surely that's a good thing if he's not easy to manipulate?
4. The Liverpool fans were at war with the last owners too - cos they were ******* *********
5. Only the English press didn't like him because of his style. But why is that a bearing?
6. No evidence that he wouldn't fit in. Liverpool didn't have any structure in place when he joined and the old owners procedures to try and destory everything.
7. Yet the following 2 managers did worse than he did in his final season. He had more injury problems and a lack of funds to contend with too.
8. Who needs a hip youngster? Should be the best man for the job. Fagan was 62, Paisley was 55, Shankley was 46 (Benitez is 52 and Martinez is 38)
9. Pulis is doing quite well with Stoke on his second try.
10. Will be a massive loss of face when they have thousands of Liverpool fans saying "we told you so, should not have apppointed Martinez" too.
11. We have a new commercial director, they should just fire Ayre if he's such a moron.
2. Since Inter won the treble - Rafael Benítez, Leonardo, Gasperini, Ranieri and now Stramaccioni. All in the space of 2 years. I think it's safe to say there is more wrong with the club than they dare admit it.
3. Surely that's a good thing if he's not easy to manipulate?
4. The Liverpool fans were at war with the last owners too - cos they were ******* *********
5. Only the English press didn't like him because of his style. But why is that a bearing?
6. No evidence that he wouldn't fit in. Liverpool didn't have any structure in place when he joined and the old owners procedures to try and destory everything.
7. Yet the following 2 managers did worse than he did in his final season. He had more injury problems and a lack of funds to contend with too.
8. Who needs a hip youngster? Should be the best man for the job. Fagan was 62, Paisley was 55, Shankley was 46 (Benitez is 52 and Martinez is 38)
9. Pulis is doing quite well with Stoke on his second try.
10. Will be a massive loss of face when they have thousands of Liverpool fans saying "we told you so, should not have apppointed Martinez" too.
11. We have a new commercial director, they should just fire Ayre if he's such a moron.
Wow, Tony Pulis and Stoke, runaway success story there. Joking aside, there are many comeback to your points, aside from the time error from me in the first point. In any case, I thin FSG are easily justified in not appointing him. Who knows, maybe they did interview him already, last year before Kenny got the permanent job or this year. They have been under the radar mostly, aside from that moron Whelan blabbing.
Original post by Strangeclouds
Wow, Tony Pulis and Stoke, runaway success story there. Joking aside, there are many comeback to your points, aside from the time error from me in the first point. In any case, I thin FSG are easily justified in not appointing him. Who knows, maybe they did interview him already, last year before Kenny got the permanent job or this year. They have been under the radar mostly, aside from that moron Whelan blabbing.
http://blog.sport.co.uk/Football/944/Top_5_Best__Worst_returning_managers.aspx
Five examples of returning managers who did well.
Original post by Zerforax
Hmm I'd be keen to hear your detailed opinion on Rafa + Martinez. Won't be wearing kopite tinted glasses so be interesting to read it.
Well, it's not so much about one being better than the other, because I don't think any sane person would try to argue that Martinez is a better candidate than Rafa.
But the owners were thinking of a DoF/football director type structure, but have now changed their minds for whatever reason. Rafa wasn't even considered, presumably because of the structure they wanted to put in place. FSG have stated they want Champions League football, so what happens if he gets there? Do they then go and get a manager with experience of managing a squad? Does Martinez even have any knowledge beyond the basics about European football and what the Champions League entails? No.
It took Martinez nigh on six months to get his squad playing the way he wanted them to, that's a squad that he built - players bought, sold and so forth. If it takes him that long again then what do FSG do then? And that'll be working with players that are not his, and are a step-up again from Wigan. What contacts does he have in Europe? Very few in comparison to Rafa. What staff at Anfield does he know?
Rafa knows the scouts, built the scouting network, built up the academy and he knows 90% of the players and youth/reserve teams. It'd be an easy transition. He took a poor Liverpool side to a CL title in 2005, I'd much rather bank on him getting you to progress over the next season or two. The only thing Rafa is not good at is PR/handling the press - he should not have guaranteed 4th in his final season. That gave H&G the perfect opportunity to oust him, thus allowing them to bring in Roy as a yes man and sell assets - Rafa wouldn't have allowed that.
Martinez is seen as some sort of tactical innovator, but it took six months to get his team to play that way, which is something that nobody seems to mention.
LFC with a DoF - it should still be Capello. The only thing Martinez has to his advantage is age, but a DoF renders longevity of the managerial position almost null and void. The manager is essentially a head coach. Capello worked with a squad assembled by Berlusconi, ffs, and has managed top level teams. Martinez is not fit to lace his shoes. But one thing is clear, Rafa is not the man if this structure is put in place.
LFC with a dictatorial managerial position - Rafa, Capello, AVB..... then a long gap to Martinez and the other darlings of the English media. The manager will have to work with a core of players from the current team, with some tweaks - budget isn't that big, apparently, so you need someone to get the best out of the players available, and fast. Martinez especially has shown that he needs time to do this.
I have to be honest that for as much as I rate the job Martinez has done at Wigan if he does get the Liverpool job it'll be an incredibly bad move by both Liverpool and Martinez.
Sure he did well but as the user above statetd it took him more than half the season to get his team playing together as a unit, any later and Wigan would surely have gone down. Perhaps luck was on their side in coming up against Man Utd and Arsenal sides who in all honesty have not been in the good form of recent years.
I personally think Dalglish did an ok job but I understand the reasons for his firing; Liverpool want to finish higher potentially top 4 and challenge for the title/major honours.
So if that's the case then why on Earth are they pursuing Martinez? Surely they should be looking at the likes of Capello who is available and has stated his desire to manage in England. Even Benitez who would be the fans' choice. Not sure about AVB but even Di Matteo is around whose future isn't yet confirmed at Chelsea.
I fear that Liverpool will have a worse season next year with Martinez at the helm. You'd have been better off trying to get Hodgson to come back or keeping on Dalglish.
Bad bad move.
Sure he did well but as the user above statetd it took him more than half the season to get his team playing together as a unit, any later and Wigan would surely have gone down. Perhaps luck was on their side in coming up against Man Utd and Arsenal sides who in all honesty have not been in the good form of recent years.
I personally think Dalglish did an ok job but I understand the reasons for his firing; Liverpool want to finish higher potentially top 4 and challenge for the title/major honours.
So if that's the case then why on Earth are they pursuing Martinez? Surely they should be looking at the likes of Capello who is available and has stated his desire to manage in England. Even Benitez who would be the fans' choice. Not sure about AVB but even Di Matteo is around whose future isn't yet confirmed at Chelsea.
I fear that Liverpool will have a worse season next year with Martinez at the helm. You'd have been better off trying to get Hodgson to come back or keeping on Dalglish.
Bad bad move.
Just watched the Uruguay - Russia game. Finished 1-1, Luis scored. Was a good finish but one he probably would have missed wearing red. He was a bit wasteful with possession but was one of the better players. On the whole it was a really average performance by Uruguay. Cavani didn't have a sniff and Forlan just looked like he couldn't be arsed.
Coates sat on the bench. Wonder what his confidence is like because Godin was pretty terrible. Slow, bad positioning and got skinned several times. Pretty much the same situation as here but with Carra.
Also got to see 15 minutes of Gaston Ramirez who we have been linked with but he didn't really touch the ball to be honest.
(Seeing Rafa on the Copa Del Rey coverage is making me pine for him xD)
Coates sat on the bench. Wonder what his confidence is like because Godin was pretty terrible. Slow, bad positioning and got skinned several times. Pretty much the same situation as here but with Carra.
Also got to see 15 minutes of Gaston Ramirez who we have been linked with but he didn't really touch the ball to be honest.
(Seeing Rafa on the Copa Del Rey coverage is making me pine for him xD)
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Gridiron-Gangster
I have to be honest that for as much as I rate the job Martinez has done at Wigan if he does get the Liverpool job it'll be an incredibly bad move by both Liverpool and Martinez.
Sure he did well but as the user above statetd it took him more than half the season to get his team playing together as a unit, any later and Wigan would surely have gone down. Perhaps luck was on their side in coming up against Man Utd and Arsenal sides who in all honesty have not been in the good form of recent years.
I personally think Dalglish did an ok job but I understand the reasons for his firing; Liverpool want to finish higher potentially top 4 and challenge for the title/major honours.
So if that's the case then why on Earth are they pursuing Martinez? Surely they should be looking at the likes of Capello who is available and has stated his desire to manage in England. Even Benitez who would be the fans' choice. Not sure about AVB but even Di Matteo is around whose future isn't yet confirmed at Chelsea.
I fear that Liverpool will have a worse season next year with Martinez at the helm. You'd have been better off trying to get Hodgson to come back or keeping on Dalglish.
Bad bad move.
Sure he did well but as the user above statetd it took him more than half the season to get his team playing together as a unit, any later and Wigan would surely have gone down. Perhaps luck was on their side in coming up against Man Utd and Arsenal sides who in all honesty have not been in the good form of recent years.
I personally think Dalglish did an ok job but I understand the reasons for his firing; Liverpool want to finish higher potentially top 4 and challenge for the title/major honours.
So if that's the case then why on Earth are they pursuing Martinez? Surely they should be looking at the likes of Capello who is available and has stated his desire to manage in England. Even Benitez who would be the fans' choice. Not sure about AVB but even Di Matteo is around whose future isn't yet confirmed at Chelsea.
I fear that Liverpool will have a worse season next year with Martinez at the helm. You'd have been better off trying to get Hodgson to come back or keeping on Dalglish.
Bad bad move.
Tbh a lot of it comes down to Wigan not having much funds (i believe) and obviously holds a lot of thick players like Caldwell. Maybe with a more intelligent bunch on more his wavelength he will be able to get it sorted right away. Looks increasingly likely anyway. But Whelan only speculated when he said about Martinez being offered the job. He thinks that's the reason. It could well be, and i think it probably is. But it isn't gospel.
Original post by Gob Bluth
Tbh a lot of it comes down to Wigan not having much funds (i believe) and obviously holds a lot of thick players like Caldwell. Maybe with a more intelligent bunch on more his wavelength he will be able to get it sorted right away. Looks increasingly likely anyway. But Whelan only speculated when he said about Martinez being offered the job. He thinks that's the reason. It could well be, and i think it probably is. But it isn't gospel.
True nothing's official until the club makes an announcement but I doubt he'd be having a second round of talks and flying out to Miami if there was the likelihood he wasn't going to be offered the job. It looks set to be him and as I said I fear it could be a bad move for Liverpool as I was under the assumption they'd be lining up a big name i.e. either a return for Benitez or Capello. For a club expecting to hit the bigtime again in a short timeframe, Martinez certainly isn't the man (at this moment in time) to deliver that kind of success.
Nah it's an absolute ****ing travesty of a situation.
Sack a man who's won everything and had an unfortunate season (I mean, you saw how well his team played the end of the 10/11 season!!) and bring in somebody who hasn't even made Wigan better after 3 years. Just because he's 22 years younger.
Sack a man who's won everything and had an unfortunate season (I mean, you saw how well his team played the end of the 10/11 season!!) and bring in somebody who hasn't even made Wigan better after 3 years. Just because he's 22 years younger.
Original post by Jim-Jam
Nah it's an absolute ****ing travesty of a situation.
Sack a man who's won everything and had an unfortunate season (I mean, you saw how well his team played the end of the 10/11 season!!) and bring in somebody who hasn't even made Wigan better after 3 years. Just because he's 22 years younger.
Sack a man who's won everything and had an unfortunate season (I mean, you saw how well his team played the end of the 10/11 season!!) and bring in somebody who hasn't even made Wigan better after 3 years. Just because he's 22 years younger.
Only if you count what he won as a player 20 odd years ago now. Why did Ipswich sack Roy Keane, he won everything?
Original post by Jim-Jam
Nah it's an absolute ****ing travesty of a situation.
Sack a man who's won everything and had an unfortunate season (I mean, you saw how well his team played the end of the 10/11 season!!) and bring in somebody who hasn't even made Wigan better after 3 years. Just because he's 22 years younger.
Sack a man who's won everything and had an unfortunate season (I mean, you saw how well his team played the end of the 10/11 season!!) and bring in somebody who hasn't even made Wigan better after 3 years. Just because he's 22 years younger.
at least fsg are not living in the past like some of these pool fans.
Original post by lol_this
at least fsg are not living in the past like some of these pool fans.
The difference is that there's clearly a difference in quality.
Can't wait to see what all these non LFC fans are gonna say when we do get Martinez and he's gash...
But anyway I don't care much now anyway! Bring him on!
Original post by Gridiron-Gangster
Sure he did well but as the user above statetd it took him more than half the season to get his team playing together as a unit, any later and Wigan would surely have gone down. Perhaps luck was on their side in coming up against Man Utd and Arsenal sides who in all honesty have not been in the good form of recent years.
They didn't simply play well, they played in title-winning form. They won 6 out of 8 games (5 of those against big teams) and were completely robbed of a deserved win at Chelsea, with two ridiculously bad (lack of) offside calls. To play in title-winning form with a squad that is probably only the 19th best in the league is outstanding, and to do it with the guts and tactical genius of 3 at the back is indicative of an enterprising, talented manager. Clutching at straws a little, trying to downplay wins over Manchester United (may I remind you, they just got a ridiculous 89 points) and Arsenal, who finished one place below.
I'm undecided about whether he's the right man, it's risky appointment, but to downplay his achievements at Wigan is stupid. All this 'only played well for a quarter of the season' crap is silly, at the end of the day, you're judged by your final league position, and 15th with his squad is pretty damn good.
Former Liverpool and England midfielder John Barnes has today been discussing at length football philosophy and the club's search for a new manager.
Amongst the fascinatingly in-depth topics discussed in the extensive interview conducted by Liverpoolfc.tv, Barnes offered the following analysis about what equates to a successful manager.
"Well, what is success? Is a manager guiding a team to safety - a team like Wigan, for example - less successful than Harry Redknapp guiding Tottenham to fourth or fifth? Which manager has been more successful in terms of working with what they've got? All you can ever do as a manager is maximise the potential for that team and if maximising the potential of that team means you finish fourth from bottom, and a team who finishes second doesn't maximise their potential because they should have finished first, the manager of the team who has beaten relegation has had a more successful season.
"Ian Holloway nearly keeping Blackpool up was for me a great feat than Carlo Ancelotti finishing second with Chelsea. So regardless of whether Roberto Martinez, who is one manager who has been linked with Liverpool, just kept Wigan up, that means nothing. Could Alex Ferguson keep Wigan up? Could Jose Mourinho keep Wigan up? We don't know but what Roberto has done is he has maximised the potential of that team and therefore if he goes to a better team, as long as we believe he can maximise the potential for that team, he will be successful.
"It's not about who is fashionable at any given time. It's about maximising the potential of the team you have. You need to look at how Martinez has done it - his methods and his philosophy in terms of how you want football to be played. There is no right or wrong way of playing football. Stoke play football the way they do and that's 100% right for them. I have no issue with that whatsoever. No one way is better than the other - however, if you are talking about the ethics and traditions of a football club, maybe you will say, you'd rather have Roberto Martinez than Tony Pullis. Tony Pullis and Stoke finished higher than Wigan did under Martinez and Tony's methods are fine - they may just not be right for a Liverpool, a West Ham or an Arsenal. Does the manager you want for your team like his team to play football the way you want and do you think he can maximise the potential of the players at his disposal and can he bring in players of quality to help interpret his vision of how he wants the team to play? That's the questions you need to be asking. At Liverpool you can do that. You don't have to spend £50m or £100m on players - look at Newcastle, they spent money wisely and bought great players. There are great players out there to endorse whatever football you want without having to spend a fortune...
"A lack of success would be an issue if you'd been around for a long period of time - say 10 years - and you've done nothing. Obviously it depends on what you consider success to be. As I say, Martinez keeping Wigan in the Premier League is success for me. In terms of age, I guess it has to be a factor because if you're looking for experience, a first time manager shouldn't get a job at a club like Liverpool if they've never managed before. Martinez has been around for maybe four or five years, he was at Swansea before Wigan, so while his age limits the amount of experience he can possibly have, in terms of the success he's had in the last four years, I think he has proven he is a good manager."
Amongst the fascinatingly in-depth topics discussed in the extensive interview conducted by Liverpoolfc.tv, Barnes offered the following analysis about what equates to a successful manager.
"Well, what is success? Is a manager guiding a team to safety - a team like Wigan, for example - less successful than Harry Redknapp guiding Tottenham to fourth or fifth? Which manager has been more successful in terms of working with what they've got? All you can ever do as a manager is maximise the potential for that team and if maximising the potential of that team means you finish fourth from bottom, and a team who finishes second doesn't maximise their potential because they should have finished first, the manager of the team who has beaten relegation has had a more successful season.
"Ian Holloway nearly keeping Blackpool up was for me a great feat than Carlo Ancelotti finishing second with Chelsea. So regardless of whether Roberto Martinez, who is one manager who has been linked with Liverpool, just kept Wigan up, that means nothing. Could Alex Ferguson keep Wigan up? Could Jose Mourinho keep Wigan up? We don't know but what Roberto has done is he has maximised the potential of that team and therefore if he goes to a better team, as long as we believe he can maximise the potential for that team, he will be successful.
"It's not about who is fashionable at any given time. It's about maximising the potential of the team you have. You need to look at how Martinez has done it - his methods and his philosophy in terms of how you want football to be played. There is no right or wrong way of playing football. Stoke play football the way they do and that's 100% right for them. I have no issue with that whatsoever. No one way is better than the other - however, if you are talking about the ethics and traditions of a football club, maybe you will say, you'd rather have Roberto Martinez than Tony Pullis. Tony Pullis and Stoke finished higher than Wigan did under Martinez and Tony's methods are fine - they may just not be right for a Liverpool, a West Ham or an Arsenal. Does the manager you want for your team like his team to play football the way you want and do you think he can maximise the potential of the players at his disposal and can he bring in players of quality to help interpret his vision of how he wants the team to play? That's the questions you need to be asking. At Liverpool you can do that. You don't have to spend £50m or £100m on players - look at Newcastle, they spent money wisely and bought great players. There are great players out there to endorse whatever football you want without having to spend a fortune...
"A lack of success would be an issue if you'd been around for a long period of time - say 10 years - and you've done nothing. Obviously it depends on what you consider success to be. As I say, Martinez keeping Wigan in the Premier League is success for me. In terms of age, I guess it has to be a factor because if you're looking for experience, a first time manager shouldn't get a job at a club like Liverpool if they've never managed before. Martinez has been around for maybe four or five years, he was at Swansea before Wigan, so while his age limits the amount of experience he can possibly have, in terms of the success he's had in the last four years, I think he has proven he is a good manager."
(edited 11 years ago)
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