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A word of warning to all those of you who dream of being dentists (from a dentist)

Reply 100

Ayshizzle

18

Original post by Bright.Inspiration.

I'm off to Leeds :woo:

hopefully as long as results go well!
I'm so freaking excited omg :biggrin:

And wow! That sounds so amazing! Aaaaah will be so cool to have you own patients !!

Ah Leeds! I did my undergrad there, I do miss it :smile:

You'll love it, they have an amazing students' union!

Haha it is exciting, although our second year is the hardest out of them all apparently so that'll be fun...

Good luck with your chem results! :biggrin:

Reply 101

Ayshizzle

18

Original post by oz40

Well this sounds like a damning account of dentistry as it is.

I'm pretty perturbed by the doom and gloom outlined by the OP. And here I thought dentistry was ALL I ever wanted to do.

Good lord.

Please don't base your entire opinion of dentistry based on one persons account.

Reply 102

CottonBud

Very interesting read, OP
I am not a dentist, but currently a dental nurse and looking to apply for Dental Hygiene and Therapy. I don't have the grades to do Dentistry but your post highlights alot of the reasons that I wouldn't want to do it anyway. I love the idea of patient contact etc. but know how stressful the NHS system is and how difficult it is for dentists at the moment.

PS I am sorry to hear that 'difficult dental nurses' are a common downside for you :frown:

all the nurses I have worked with are lovely and usually very motivated and interested in their jobs (because to be honest, it's not brilliantly paid! If I didn't enjoy it I wouldn't have kept doing it).

Reply 103

oz40

8

Original post by thebruciebonus

Agreed it is hell! Having just finished dental school I can safely say I would not do that again for anything!

*begins PhD*

no seriously it is awful, you get blamed that you did things wrong when actually you didnt. the clinical staff 'teaching' me actually made my outcomes worse sometimes. Its hilarious. But I'm done so FTW!

There are some good people who want you to do well but they are so rare. Most clinicians are spiteful since they are basically awful at dentistry and hate life. The happy clinicians that arrive quickly become dragged into the whole peacocking, social climbing sickening show that goes on every day.

But... Its a great career and you'll always have a job, just dont be forced into it by parents since you'll resent it (I decided late I was going to do it). You have a high earning potential compared to other jobs, are in a 'respected' profession though I'm sure the amount of respect recieved will vary, and lets face it you are on par with Doctors on the social ladder.

Also if like me you cannot stand being told what to do, well, you are going to have some serious anger issues by the end. I'd recommend taking up kickboxing or weights...

Where did you study Dentistry?

Reply 104

member9876

11

one of my best friends has gone to hungary so thats 5 year course over there. he thinks there will be lots of jobs here once he finishes over there. is this true?

Reply 105

muchomungo

OP

5

Original post by member9876

one of my best friends has gone to hungary so thats 5 year course over there. he thinks there will be lots of jobs here once he finishes over there. is this true?

Well don't bet on there be loads of well paying jobs when he gets back. There are jobs available, but its VERY hard to get ones near London and the South East. They are also often just part time. There are jobs in other parts of the country e.g. Northern England or Cornwall if you're happy working there. But there's loads of dentists chasing jobs everywhere and he'll also be competing against UK graduates.

The money he earns will depend on whether he can see 30+ patients a day, otherwise don't expect a great income. The NHS is in a state of flux in England and reforms are expected but its unclear what the final result will be. A general election could result in everything being changed again.

A few years ago it was extremely rare for anyone to go to such extreme lengths as studying in Hungary. I think there is a uni in Debrecen. It seems more common now.
At least he may get more clinical experience than in a UK uni!
It just goes to show that its become more competitive to get in here, in spite of an increased intake and 3 new dental schools. Tbh, I think your friend has taken a incredible risk given the way things are at the moment.

Reply 106

That Bearded Man

22

This kind if wake up call for dentists, makes me feel very nervous about the medicine/dentistry/pharmacy sector, especially since pharmacy employment took a hit there too.

Good post OP

Reply 107

member9876

11

Original post by muchomungo

Well don't bet on there be loads of well paying jobs when he gets back. There are jobs available, but its VERY hard to get ones near London and the South East. They are also often just part time. There are jobs in other parts of the country e.g. Northern England or Cornwall if you're happy working there. But there's loads of dentists chasing jobs everywhere and he'll also be competing against UK graduates.

The money he earns will depend on whether he can see 30+ patients a day, otherwise don't expect a great income. The NHS is in a state of flux in England and reforms are expected but its unclear what the final result will be. A general election could result in everything being changed again.

A few years ago it was extremely rare for anyone to go to such extreme lengths as studying in Hungary. I think there is a uni in Debrecen. It seems more common now.
At least he may get more clinical experience than in a UK uni!
It just goes to show that its become more competitive to get in here, in spite of an increased intake and 3 new dental schools. Tbh, I think your friend has taken a incredible risk given the way things are at the moment.

hes at debrenchen, lives in north west england says there's plenty of jobs going. hes got another 4 years to go...

Reply 108

muchomungo

OP

5

Original post by member9876

hes at debrenchen, lives in north west england says there's plenty of jobs going. hes got another 4 years to go...

He'll probably be able to find a job much easier than in the South East. As long as he intends to practise in the North West. No idea what state the NHS will be in in 4 years, either way, he's going to have to see a lot of patients.

Reply 109

Magnanimity

14

Original post by That Bearded Man

This kind if wake up call for dentists, makes me feel very nervous about the medicine/dentistry/pharmacy sector, especially since pharmacy employment took a hit there too.

Good post OP

It's still about one of the safest careers going when you compare to other degrees/jobs. It's just not as safe as it was. Dentistry is only going through what every other sector has been long before us.

Reply 110

DentalVet

Original post by Magnanimity

It's still about one of the safest careers going when you compare to other degrees/jobs. It's just not as safe as it was. Dentistry is only going through what every other sector has been long before us.

I would be interested in your views of the future of dentistry in Scotland. I am due to start at Aberdeen. Is it possible to see thirty patients a day? Is there a potential glut of dentists in Scotland? Is there much scope for private denistry in Scotland?

Apologies for all the questions however as you are a dentist and are being candid, thought I would ask.

Cheers

Reply 111

DentalVet

Original post by member9876

hes at debrenchen, lives in north west england says there's plenty of jobs going. hes got another 4 years to go...

Hello there. Your posts are both enlightening and frightening in equal measure. Saying that, I suspect that you are giving a much needed reality check to all the bright eyed budding dentists out there. Given I am a graduate with a fair few years under my belt, I'm far more of a realist of what dentistry has in store. Saying that, I would still value your opinon on a couple of questions. Is it actually possible to see thirty patients a day realistically and if you do, how many years do you think of experience would you need to pull it off? Final question, given that the corporates are on the grow, is there much change of getting a contract from a PCT these days to set one's own practice up?

Cheers

Reply 112

DentalVet

Original post by muchomungo

He'll probably be able to find a job much easier than in the South East. As long as he intends to practise in the North West. No idea what state the NHS will be in in 4 years, either way, he's going to have to see a lot of patients.

Hello there. Your posts are both enlightening and frightening in equal measure. Saying that, I suspect that you are giving a much needed reality check to all the bright eyed budding dentists out there. Given I am a graduate with a fair few years under my belt, I'm far more of a realist of what dentistry has in store. Saying that, I would still value your opinon on a couple of questions. Is it actually possible to see thirty patients a day realistically and if you do, how many years do you think of experience would you need to pull it off? Final question, given that the corporates are on the grow, is there much change of getting a contract from a PCT these days to set one's own practice up?

Cheers

Reply 113

Magnanimity

14

Original post by DentalVet

I would be interested in your views of the future of dentistry in Scotland. I am due to start at Aberdeen. Is it possible to see thirty patients a day? Is there a potential glut of dentists in Scotland? Is there much scope for private denistry in Scotland?

Apologies for all the questions however as you are a dentist and are being candid, thought I would ask.

Cheers

I see 30-35 roughly, sometimes 40 if it's a manic day. I am in a great practice in a great area and really have been very lucky. Seeing 30 patients a day I don't personally find a big problem, though it can be tiring.

About 30% of my net income is private. It depends where your practice is how big your private income is.

Jobs up here are sparse and you can go months with no adverts then suddenly a few appear. Competition is fierce. I recently went for 5 interviews for a second job and only got 1 (luckily the one I wanted).

Scotland is a LOT better off than England at the moment, the fee per item system is annoying but works better than UDAs.The VT system up here is the major bottleneck. Associate jobs are sparse but they are there.

Reply 114

DentalVet

Original post by Magnanimity

I see 30-35 roughly, sometimes 40 if it's a manic day. I am in a great practice in a great area and really have been very lucky. Seeing 30 patients a day I don't personally find a big problem, though it can be tiring.

About 30% of my net income is private. It depends where your practice is how big your private income is.

Jobs up here are sparse and you can go months with no adverts then suddenly a few appear. Competition is fierce. I recently went for 5 interviews for a second job and only got 1 (luckily the one I wanted).

Scotland is a LOT better off than England at the moment, the fee per item system is annoying but works better than UDAs.The VT system up here is the major bottleneck. Associate jobs are sparse but they are there.

Thanks for the heads up and sorry for all the questions. I do have a couple more if you have the time. I take it all of your graduating year got jobs did they? You mentioned VT being a bottle neck. I take it there are not enough VT posts in Scotland for grads out of the three dental schools?

Cheers

Reply 115

gunner4lyf44

11

I was originally (2 years ago) going to do dentistry but changed after doing work experience as I found it boring. However ALL of the dentists, both young and old, says it pays so well and is very lucrative. The OP might have just had a bad experience.

Reply 116

muchomungo

OP

5

Originally Posted by DentalVet

"Thanks again for your lengthy response. It might be worth posting your responses back on the site as the other dental hopefuls out there might take heed?

Reasons for leaving vet are varied…

Poor remuneration- an associate in practice after ten years can at the very best earn 40-50K (and this is generous, I am aware of lots of experienced vets who don’t’ even make £40K!). There is no scope whatsoever to earn more unless you are a specialist or own your practice. No option of a state funded pension either!

Very Long hours- typical vet hours are 8.30am to 7pm Monday to Friday (you might get a couple hours off in middle of the day). EU work directives don’t apply in the veterinary profession it would seem ! Weekend work is standard- both Sat and Sun (will get days off in the week in lieu). Finally, the elephant in the room. On call duty (typically a couple of nights a week). So you can get called out in the middle of the night to do a caesarean or see a hit by car but still have a full day to look forward to the following day. (thankfully about half of practices sell out their out of hours to a OOH provider which has improved things for vets). However, even if you don’t have to do OOH, the rest still applies and you will have to work your 50 plus hours a week to get that generous 40-50K.

Emotionally draining at times- the most acute example of that is dealing with euthanasia. This is never easy yet is something a vet will do a few times a week.

Corporates- making it difficult to compete due to economies of scale. The dream of most vets is to buy their own practice. This was certainly mine.. but the economics of if don’t really work.

More vets- Vet schools have greatly increased their numbers (double the number of vets in the last five years) and then of course the EU vets who can work here as well (although from my experience with them, their training is generally poor). This will just drive wages down further.

As an interesting side issue, the veterinary profession is now very female dominated. Over 80% of new graduates are female. I’m a rarity as a male small animal vet! The feminization of the profession is one of the reasons for corporates moving in as older vets don’t have as much scope with associates wanting to buy their practices. Of course, there are plenty of lady vets who would buy a practice as well but not as many as when the profession was male dominated.

Being a vets isn’t all bad to be fair. You can build up client rapport and you do make a difference to your clients and their pets. However, work life balance is what is sacrificed on the altar of doing the job. As they say, vet is not a profession, it is a vocation! Like you, I would never have believed it until you actually live it. The above however is a fair representation of how life as a small animal vet is.

Anyway, I had a few more questions…

This direct access- I was aware of this although not the scope of it. That is indeed not good for dentists, especially young ones. How likely is this to be implemented? It would be the equivalent of letting veterinary nurses see patients without the patient being seen by the vet first. How ridiculous! This is a recipe for disaster for various reasons!

Another question I had was regarding working overseas. I actually have dual nationality (UK/Australian). I’m seriously looking at taking my dental degree (still undecided if it is worth it!) and heading back to Oz. Have you any mates who have headed that way? Have you thought about packing up and heading off yourself? I know that Australia has dramatically increased their graduate numbers too so the same thing sadly will happen in Oz. Saying that though, Oz doesn’t have the NHS as such and most dentistry is private. It is still relatively well paid (at least for the moment). My plan would be to move somewhere regional rather than Melbourne (where I am from) as opportunities for work are better. If I stay in the UK on the other hand, would likely end up somewhere regional in Scotland.

Final question. On the web, there are dental practices for sale that have NHS contracts so would it be fair to say it is possible to buy a practice? It just comes down to having the cash (or ability to get a bank loan) that determines it? Or am I missing something regarding PCT contracts. i.e. if you buy a practice with an existing contract, you need to reapply for it? Or even worse, PCT are no longer handing out contracts and I assume in some cases they are not renewing?

Final questions… given the NHS is in a funk and will continue to be.. I assume dentistry is heading private in the end?

Cheers and thanks again for your previous reply."

That's very interesting your description of your job. To be honest, it looks like a carbon copy of the situation with dentistry. With the obvious exception of euthanasia(!). But that is compensated for by the fact that no one actually wants to come and see the dentist. Having read all that, I really think you'll find dentistry equally frustrating, maybe more so. You probably realise that as well. All the professions have been damaged and devalued by the policies of the last decade. Total deregulation in terms of ownership, excessive training places, competition from abroad that is essentially unrestricted, a deluge of red tape and finally delegating "simpler" duties to lesser qualified people. Nothing is lucrative or secure in the way it was. With that in mind, you really have to ask yourself if joining another profession is worth the hasstle.

1. Direct access is imminent. It's not if, its when. There's already problems with dental unemployment amongst younger dentists. This is just going to be a disaster. DCPs will obviously fight their corner but so will dentists. Dentists are already undercut and exploited. Well what's happening now is just the tip of the iceberg I predict. Costs are spiralling out of control with the amount of regulations now imposed on practices. Direct access is a good idea in terms of delivering cheaper state funded dental care. But for dentists, it will make many of us redundant. Most of the work I've done since graduation could be done by a therapist or hygienist (ie NHS doesnt provide much scope for skilling up). So if you're a practice owner why bother paying a dentist when you can get someone do the same job for even less. I guess dentists will have no choice but to do the expensive specialisation (if they can get in and afford it) and then try and get a specialist job after. Trouble is, many others will have the same idea. In the meantime, practice owners, Royal colleges and post grad centres will be laughing all the way to the bank. In the middle you'll have loads of young dentists who will effectively be a jilted generation- they can't find bog standard associate jobs easily (and they will pay peanuts), they can't aspire to own practices like their predecessors and they can't easily/cheaply/quickly get into and complete specialist training like their predecessors.

2. As for working abroad, it's an interesting idea, but not futureproof. Australia doesn't appeal to me tbh. I have heard anecdotally that it is a good place to work at this point in time. The regulatory authorities are not overly zealous so you're not paranoid all the time, there's largely no NHS and successful people are celebrated not denigrated like they are here. It's a different culture. As for remuneration, its supposed to be good with much fewer patients per day than an average NHS day. But, I've always thought that Oz is really just the UK in a time capsule- maybe 10-15 years behind. Whether it follows the same path as here is difficult to say. But nothing stays the same. They have opened new dental schools and set up a reciprocal agreement with Canada for 2010 grads onwards. But the labour market seems much more tightly regulated thanks to visas and conversion exams for most.
Having the nationality is a definately a plus, you might be able to find a job in a city easier than a foreigner on a visa. But since you're willing to live regionally, you'll certainly be in demand there. But training here just to leave straight away is not without its risks.

For example..stupidly, Aus/NZ/SA dentists who have qualified since 1/1/2001 have to sit the tough ORE exam to work in the UK despite almost certainly being better trained than UK grads or EU grads. It's not recipropcated in Aus thankfully, but who's to say they won't impose it in the next 5 years. I wouldn't blame them if they did!
I also know that corporates are starting to edge their way into the Aus dental market. But the bottom line is, I'm fairly certain, Aus in 2012 is a massively more pleasant place to practise dentistry than the UK. Maybe you could study it there? I know the fees are high but you'd be considered a local student and would you get funding for the horrendous UK student fees starting this year?

As I've said, Scotland is the best place in the UK to practise dentistry. Litigation is also less of a worry due to Scottish law being slightly different and the no win no fee culture not such a problem.

3. It's very very hard to set up a new NHS practice from scratch as you know. Since you want to work in Scotland, that might be one of the few places you still could e.g. highlands and islands..so somewhere with a REAL shortage of access.
You can currently buy a practice, an existing contract. Getting banks to lend you the money is hard. The corporates have their business model in place and the funds to acquire loads of practices. So that clearly puts an individual at a disadvantage. I don't honestly know the answer to what happens with the contract after you've got it but maybe you can negotiate for more funding if the PCT permits it, it depends on the PCT I think. There is talk that with the new pilots, the contract wouldn't be for life so you'd have the possibility that the funding would cease. That makes sense tbh, its consistent with the other legislation in place - ie provide a disincentive to set up new practices..what bank would lend to a business that would likely lose most of its income in 3 years. It's unclear what's going to happen with the new pilot. Bottom line is...owning an NHS practice will be difficult.

4. Will dentistry go totally private? No, I don't think so. It's too politically damaging for whoever is in power and the public see the NHS as their right. Additionally, there's so many dentists in the UK anyway, you'd not be able to charge that much privately due to the competition. I actually think the NHS is here to stay. Direct access will certainly breathe new life into it, probably to the detriment of dentists.