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Gambling or Investing?
I've been having a debate with another person recently about whether playing Holdem can be considered gambling or investing (ie whether you gamble with your money/chips, or whether you invest it into pots)
I was just wondering, what you think is more correct to call it?
holdem = a form of poker
arguements for gambling;
LPK - Gambling!
Poker is a gambling game! So it is gambling!
arguements for investing;
ME -
no its investing.
The mathematics is clear. You play correctly 100% you will break even after an infinate number of hands. Therefore you invest in pots that are being played by bad players who do not make the right decisions
I was just wondering, what you think is more correct to call it?
holdem = a form of poker
arguements for gambling;
LPK - Gambling!
Poker is a gambling game! So it is gambling!
arguements for investing;
ME -
no its investing.
The mathematics is clear. You play correctly 100% you will break even after an infinate number of hands. Therefore you invest in pots that are being played by bad players who do not make the right decisions
LPK
Gambling!
Poker is a gambling game! So it is gambling!
Poker is a gambling game! So it is gambling!
The mathematics is clear. You play correctly 100% you will break even after an infinate number of hands. Therefore you invest in pots that are being played by bad players who do not make the right decisions
New_kid_on_the_block
no its investing.
The mathematics is clear. You play correctly 100% you will break even after an infinate number of hands. Therefore you invest in pots that are being played by bad players who do not make the right decisions
The mathematics is clear. You play correctly 100% you will break even after an infinate number of hands. Therefore you invest in pots that are being played by bad players who do not make the right decisions
But not everyone can play 100% correctly, so they lose. There is a chance of losing, so it is gambling.
LPK
But not everyone can play 100% correctly, so they lose. There is a chance of losing, so it is gambling.
and hence how i turned £25 into £250 
hence how i turned 50$ into $8k
poker is investing if you are good at it,
while there are aspects of gambling in it, it is gambling with a positive expected value.
for example, if i were to make a deal with you to do a coinflip, but the coin is croked that two thirds of the time it's heads, you will bet on heads and will win money in the longrun ffrom me, even though several times i might win with tails.
it's how poker is, if youare good you'll be able to put your opponent on a hand, and will play according so, and you will be putting your money in the middle only when you know you have the better hand (unless you are putting it in to bluf the person off their hand- folding equity)
i know tons of people who make money off poker.
some guy i know made $25k in one tournament coming first, and about a month later he cashed for $14k because he came second in the same tournament.
regularly alot of them play cash games though, they grind at stakes of $1/$2 and do pretty well, make atleast $3k a month..
poker is only gambling (with -EV) if you are bad at it.
the reason that poker can be a +EV game for some good people is that they are taking advantage of the opponents mistakes caused as poker is a game with imperfect information.
if all the players were to play poker with their cards face up the whole time, then it would be a break even game.
poker is investing if you are good at it,
while there are aspects of gambling in it, it is gambling with a positive expected value.
for example, if i were to make a deal with you to do a coinflip, but the coin is croked that two thirds of the time it's heads, you will bet on heads and will win money in the longrun ffrom me, even though several times i might win with tails.
it's how poker is, if youare good you'll be able to put your opponent on a hand, and will play according so, and you will be putting your money in the middle only when you know you have the better hand (unless you are putting it in to bluf the person off their hand- folding equity)
i know tons of people who make money off poker.
some guy i know made $25k in one tournament coming first, and about a month later he cashed for $14k because he came second in the same tournament.
regularly alot of them play cash games though, they grind at stakes of $1/$2 and do pretty well, make atleast $3k a month..
poker is only gambling (with -EV) if you are bad at it.
the reason that poker can be a +EV game for some good people is that they are taking advantage of the opponents mistakes caused as poker is a game with imperfect information.
if all the players were to play poker with their cards face up the whole time, then it would be a break even game.
see martin! IT IS INVESTING.
btw stergrier, theres a TSR league starting soon, you sound like a decent player, how about joining? There are no fees, and the prizes aren't great but you get to play against moi and others
Check out General Chat
btw stergrier, theres a TSR league starting soon, you sound like a decent player, how about joining? There are no fees, and the prizes aren't great but you get to play against moi and others
Check out General Chat
In order for it to be an investment, you need to know a sufficient amount about the variables involved. For example, if a person who knows about the stock market buys shares in a company due to an informed judgement about their performance, that's investment, but if someone randomly picks the same company to invest in, that's gambling. If you're playing poker, it's not possible to know enough about other people's cards to make an informed judgement, so it's gambling.
Also, you commit the fallacy of believing that in a game of chance, an infinite number of repeats will even things out. That's not strictly true, given that you're playing a game in which the odds do not remain constant and there are a combination of random and non-random variables, many of which you will not have information about.
Also, you commit the fallacy of believing that in a game of chance, an infinite number of repeats will even things out. That's not strictly true, given that you're playing a game in which the odds do not remain constant and there are a combination of random and non-random variables, many of which you will not have information about.
Chumbaniya
In order for it to be an investment, you need to know a sufficient amount about the variables involved. For example, if a person who knows about the stock market buys shares in a company due to an informed judgement about their performance, that's investment, but if someone randomly picks the same company to invest in, that's gambling. If you're playing poker, it's not possible to know enough about other people's cards to make an informed judgement, so it's gambling.
Also, you commit the fallacy of believing that in a game of chance, an infinite number of repeats will even things out. That's not strictly true, given that you're playing a game in which the odds do not remain constant and there are a combination of random and non-random variables, many of which you will not have information about.
Also, you commit the fallacy of believing that in a game of chance, an infinite number of repeats will even things out. That's not strictly true, given that you're playing a game in which the odds do not remain constant and there are a combination of random and non-random variables, many of which you will not have information about.
But you can say the same about poker as you've said in the first part...
In poker, your looking for betting and playing patterns, your looking for people who make wrong decisions which lead to a great EV.
And it is possible to know A LOT about the other person's hole cards... betting patterns say A LOT about an opponents strength.
In fact, an example i can use is a few days ago me and Mustard-Mann were watching a hand where someone had raised 4Xbb pre-flop. On the flop i named the guys hand as being EXACTALLY AJ - 2 pair on the flop. The guy turned over AJ and beat AQ (who had top pair on the flop - i cant remember the exact hand). There is one example of where I, being an experienced player, would have SAVED money because i got a perfect read on my opponent - therefore when the exact same hand comes up IN MY FAVOUR - ie i flop 2 pair AJ and i suck the player in, or make him lose a lot more chips than i would have, i will make a profit in the long run.
have you ever played btw?
Chumbaniya
If you're playing poker, it's not possible to know enough about other people's cards to make an informed judgement, so it's gambling.
... the odds do not remain constant and there are a combination of random and non-random variables, many of which you will not have information about.
... the odds do not remain constant and there are a combination of random and non-random variables, many of which you will not have information about.
1. betting pattern, you look at hands that the players have shown down , look back at their betting pattern. were they betting big when they had a big hand, and small when weak orbluffing?, have they been slow-playing? do they fast-play their hands?
2. physical reads: hard to pick up, but when do they shake? when they have a strong hand or when they are bluffing?, what about their chattiness? do they get quiet when they are bluffing or when they have a good hand? do they start speaking nicer to you or act confident by staring you straight in the eye or avoid it?, their heartbeat, their hand movement (ie flick the chips in the pot to signify strength or move them calmly into the middle as if they are weak?)
3. Style of play, are they loose or tight? do they play alotof hands or only wait for big hands? passive or aggressive? do they raise alot or dothey just call?
4. range of hands: playing tight or loose will be able to determine what sort of hand the player plays from certain position. and will help you determine what hand he is holding.
of course you are right in some aspect you can't put a person in one specific hand, usually you put them on a range of hands that are quite possible for him to play so on that certain board, betting in that certain pattern, considering his style of play.
you put percentages on the type of hands that they are likely to have, and then you find out your chances of beating each of those hands, and you calculate your overall likeliness of winning the hand,
at that point you also calculate the pot odds, ie how much more you have to put in the pot to win that pot. then you compare the pot odds with your odds of winning and decide whether it's a positive gamble or not.
obviously you don't know well enough about the game to know what i'm talking about htough...
so i won't make judgements without being informed enough if i were you.
the wohle point is that it's a game of misinformation. that's the beauty of the game. and good players are able to deduct through logical reasoning A information. which bad players are not able to do so, and they will make mistakes.
simeon
Investing is effectively gambling as you can't (legally) be certain of the outcome.
Also, two of my friends who are very good Poker players hate playing with me (I'm not a good player) as I'm unpredictable and they can't get a fix on my 'style' of play.
Also, two of my friends who are very good Poker players hate playing with me (I'm not a good player) as I'm unpredictable and they can't get a fix on my 'style' of play.
unpredictable players can be beat though.
- unless the unpredictable player can tell when they are beat and make correct folds.Your just like me actually
(i once managed to bluff a guy out of a hand with jack high - he had trip aces with a weak kicker...) - but that was because i played it perfectly like AK or AQ
LPK
But not everyone can play 100% correctly, so they lose. There is a chance of losing, so it is gambling.
An investment into a company is also risky, i.e. if the company collapses, thus there is a loss.
Investment is where you purchase something in the hope that you will get a better return in due time. Poker fits into this category, me thinks
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