D&D Religion's "Ask About Judaism" Thread
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Poops
This is simply not true. A Jew is not considered superior in any way to anyone. It is a matter of different responsibilities not purpose.
OK, so I take it you've never heard the phrase "Am Segulah" or perhaps "Am Hanivchar" or maybe the blessing "Asher Bochar Bonu Mikol Ha'Amim" or maybe "B'ni Bechori Yisrael".
Apologies for all those who don't speak Hebrew but I'm sure Poops will translate all those phrases for you and attempt to explain them all away.
mark renton
apologies if this has been asked before and if so just direct me to said page - but iv always been curious as to how, when and why the Jewish diaspora actually begun?
also in what sense does one become 'a man' after a Bar mitzvah? as in what are they allowed to do that they were not before, in relgiopus or cultural activities?
also in what sense does one become 'a man' after a Bar mitzvah? as in what are they allowed to do that they were not before, in relgiopus or cultural activities?
The Jewish diaspora really began in about AD 67 after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem by the Romans and the expulsion and scattering of Jews from the Land of Israel to other areas of the world. Although it is true that there were Jews living outside that area from the time of about 400 BC or so after the destruction of the first Temple.
Also note that the term "diaspora" is taken to mean Jews living outside modern Israel and thus has gained a political element to it while the term "exile" refers to living without the Temple.
A Bar Mitzvah indicates that a boy has reached a level of physical and mental maturity and is thus responsible for his own actions. From that time he is obligated with all the commandments and is liable to be punished for sins. As a result of being so obligated he also has new abilities, as it were, to help other Jews perform their obligations.
UniOfLife
Why do you assume that animals are not responsible for their actions? The OT does indeed mention about animals being punished.
I think you're suffering from a misapprehension hence the question "So, all non-jews are made to WILLFULLY serve the divine purpose of the jewish people?" Non-Jews are not designed to serve Jews any more than Jews are designed to serve non-Jews. All people are designed to fulfil a certain purpose that God has in mind for them. Non-Jews have a different purpose to Jews and to that end have different commandments to keep.
I would ask you a simple question - what exactly is your understanding of the relationship between Jews and non-Jews. You seem to think that (according to Judaism) non-Jews are subservient to Jews and this appears to give rise to your questions. So perhaps it is a misunderstanding on your part.
I think you're suffering from a misapprehension hence the question "So, all non-jews are made to WILLFULLY serve the divine purpose of the jewish people?" Non-Jews are not designed to serve Jews any more than Jews are designed to serve non-Jews. All people are designed to fulfil a certain purpose that God has in mind for them. Non-Jews have a different purpose to Jews and to that end have different commandments to keep.
I would ask you a simple question - what exactly is your understanding of the relationship between Jews and non-Jews. You seem to think that (according to Judaism) non-Jews are subservient to Jews and this appears to give rise to your questions. So perhaps it is a misunderstanding on your part.
You didn't answer my question. What is the purpose of Judaism being introduced? What is the meaning of having Jews who are superior and the rest of the world not - what is the task - what is the goal? What is God's plan according to OT?
ma2k5
You didn't answer my question. What is the purpose of Judaism being introduced? What is the meaning of having Jews who are superior and the rest of the world not - what is the task - what is the goal? What is God's plan according to OT?
God's plan (so far as has been revealed) is to reveal His Greatness and Goodness to all. In order to facilitate this he has created life and bestowed individual purposes to living creatures. We don't, obviously, know exactly what these purposes are for each individual. But God has given us laws to follow (whether you are Jewish or not there are laws for you to follow) and we hope that by following those laws and trying to do the best we can we will fulfil our purpose in life.
I don't know why God needs to have a people that have been bestowed with a different soul than others. All I know is the laws He has given and what He has revealed. I try to follow those Laws and through that fulfil my purpose and receive reward both in this world and in the world to come. non-Jews likewise have laws to follow and if they fulfil them they can hope to fulfil their purpose and receive reward in the world to come.
UniOfLife
God's plan (so far as has been revealed) is to reveal His Greatness and Goodness to all. In order to facilitate this he has created life and bestowed individual purposes to living creatures. We don't, obviously, know exactly what these purposes are for each individual. But God has given us laws to follow (whether you are Jewish or not there are laws for you to follow) and we hope that by following those laws and trying to do the best we can we will fulfil our purpose in life.
I don't know why God needs to have a people that have been bestowed with a different soul than others. All I know is the laws He has given and what He has revealed. I try to follow those Laws and through that fulfil my purpose and receive reward both in this world and in the world to come. non-Jews likewise have laws to follow and if they fulfil them they can hope to fulfil their purpose and receive reward in the world to come.
I don't know why God needs to have a people that have been bestowed with a different soul than others. All I know is the laws He has given and what He has revealed. I try to follow those Laws and through that fulfil my purpose and receive reward both in this world and in the world to come. non-Jews likewise have laws to follow and if they fulfil them they can hope to fulfil their purpose and receive reward in the world to come.
Ok, thank you - thats what I wanted to know. Also, animals are actually judged in life according to Judaism? What is the punishment (by God) for someone who leaves Judaism and goes back to living the 7 laws brought down by Noah (as opposed to the 600+)?
ma2k5
Ok, thank you - thats what I wanted to know. Also, animals are actually judged in life according to Judaism? What is the punishment (by God) for someone who leaves Judaism and goes back to living the 7 laws brought down by Noah (as opposed to the 600+)?
To some extent yes they are. Were not most of the animals killed in the Flood just like the people. There is a concept of animals (and even inanimate objects - ie the spiritual forces behind those objects) being punished. Everything is held accountable for their actions and choices.
A Jew who decides to only keep the 7 Noahide Laws is punished as is appropriate for not keeping the other laws that he is obligated to keep. As for what that punishment is, that is something only God knows.
UniOfLife
OK, so I take it you've never heard the phrase "Am Segulah" or perhaps "Am Hanivchar" or maybe the blessing "Asher Bochar Bonu Mikol Ha'Amim" or maybe "B'ni Bechori Yisrael".
Apologies for all those who don't speak Hebrew but I'm sure Poops will translate all those phrases for you and attempt to explain them all away.
Apologies for all those who don't speak Hebrew but I'm sure Poops will translate all those phrases for you and attempt to explain them all away.
I didn't say that the Jews aren't the chosen people. I merely want to clarify that being chosen does not make you superior. It presents you with additional responsibilities. 'Light unto the nations' means the responsibility to provide a moral example, not that the Jewish people are in any way superior to any other human beings.
Poops
I didn't say that the Jews aren't the chosen people. I merely want to clarify that being chosen does not make you superior. It presents you with additional responsibilities. 'Light unto the nations' means the responsibility to provide a moral example, not that the Jewish people are in any way superior to any other human beings.
I suppose this is what Aish told you?
What has this got to do with Aish?
Poops
What has this got to do with Aish?
Because it is the kind of wishy-washy apologetics they peddle in.
Quite frankly, to accept that Jews are the Chosen People and that we thank God every morning for making us Jews and not non-Jews makes it almost impossible to claim that in the eyes of God Jews are not in any way superior to non-Jews. So far as I know it is only Aish and their ilk who try to tell people this in order to avoid accusations of racism.
But, the position is simply untenable and the aim is unnecessary. I find it hard to imagine that many non-Jews feel deeply offended that Jews believe that in the eyes of God Jews are somehow superior. If they believe in Judaism then they would believe this too. If they don't believe in Judaism they don't believe this. And so long as Jewish people aren't stupid enough to think that God's attitude gives them a licence to be racist there really is no problem. Perhaps what concerns this group is the religious Zionists who fuse politics and religion and maybe they do translate a spiritual superiority in the eyes of God into a physical superiority manifest in this world. I don't know.
But what seems almost certain is that a basic belief of Judaism is that Jews are closer to God and spiritually superior to non-Jews as a reward for the actions of the Patriarchs.
I find it hard to imagine that many non-Jews feel deeply offended that Jews believe that in the eyes of God Jews are somehow superior. If they believe in Judaism then they would believe this too. If they don't believe in Judaism they don't believe this.
Like everyone went over this, they are shocked that people will believe that God had chosen specific people to be superior. It has nothing to do with if they accept the religion or not. Similarly, you are probably shocked at what muslims believes Jews are the worst of people - arn't you offended just because you don't believe in Islam? Didn't you ever have the thought that "How could people believe God would say such things!"?
ma2k5
Like everyone went over this, they are shocked that people will believe that God had chosen specific people to be superior. It has nothing to do with if they accept the religion or not. Similarly, you are probably shocked at what muslims believes Jews are the worst of people - arn't you offended just because you don't believe in Islam? Didn't you ever have the thought that "How could people believe God would say such things!"?
Why would I be offended if Muslims think Jews are inferior? Should I be offended that Christians think all non-Christians are inferior for not accepting Jesus as God? No. So long as Muslims don't take my supposed inferiority as a licence to harm or abuse me I don't care. Likewise Christians.
As for thinking that God could never say such a thing - No. I never had such a thought. The only basis for thinking that God could not say such a thing is if we assume that all people must be exactly equal. And this is idea exists only in one religion - Christianity - and no other that I am aware of. I don't believe all people are exactly the same and I see nothing wrong with God rewarding someone by providing extra benefits to their progeny.
Do you think it incredibly immoral for rich parents to provide extra benefits to their kids?
So no, I don't think it's offensive to consider one group to be inferior in God's eyes so long as that isn't taken as a licence to abuse that group. And I don't find it ludicrous that God would do such a thing since I don't base my moral judgements on Christian ideology.
Sorry, but the idea that everyone should be equal is not christian ideology - its quite humanist ideology too.
This analogy with rich parents. So tell me, lets put God as the rich parent - are only the jews his kids? What is that supposed to mean? Or that God could selectivly give some more than others - this makes him a fair moral God? Your reason as a Kid for getting the benefits is because your parents were rich, now what is your reason for your benefits that I wasn't entitled to? Oh whats that? God, for some reason, chose to give you more than me, even though he could give same to me...
People should be equal for sake of fairness - what did you do to be Gods chosen people that others didn't - its not something you have a good answer for, all you can say is "Its God's plan", it all seems just egoistic.
I just believe God should see every human in his eyes equally or he is immoral (on creation). I understand God will reward people who do good deeds etc, but I am talking about you being destined by God to be created as an inferior being, for which has no knowable reason.
This analogy with rich parents. So tell me, lets put God as the rich parent - are only the jews his kids? What is that supposed to mean? Or that God could selectivly give some more than others - this makes him a fair moral God? Your reason as a Kid for getting the benefits is because your parents were rich, now what is your reason for your benefits that I wasn't entitled to? Oh whats that? God, for some reason, chose to give you more than me, even though he could give same to me...
People should be equal for sake of fairness - what did you do to be Gods chosen people that others didn't - its not something you have a good answer for, all you can say is "Its God's plan", it all seems just egoistic.
I just believe God should see every human in his eyes equally or he is immoral (on creation). I understand God will reward people who do good deeds etc, but I am talking about you being destined by God to be created as an inferior being, for which has no knowable reason.
ma2k5
Sorry, but the idea that everyone should be equal is not christian ideology - its quite humanist ideology too.
This analogy with rich parents. So tell me, lets put God as the rich parent - are only the jews his kids? What is that supposed to mean? Or that God could selectivly give some more than others - this makes him a fair moral God? Your reason as a Kid for getting the benefits is because your parents were rich, now what is your reason for your benefits that I wasn't entitled to? Oh whats that? God, for some reason, chose to give you more than me, even though he could give same to me...
People should be equal for sake of fairness - what did you do to be Gods chosen people that others didn't - its not something you have a good answer for, all you can say is "Its God's plan", it all seems just egoistic.
I just believe God should see every human in his eyes equally or he is immoral (on creation). I understand God will reward people who do good deeds etc, but I am talking about you being destined by God to be created as an inferior being, for which has no knowable reason.
This analogy with rich parents. So tell me, lets put God as the rich parent - are only the jews his kids? What is that supposed to mean? Or that God could selectivly give some more than others - this makes him a fair moral God? Your reason as a Kid for getting the benefits is because your parents were rich, now what is your reason for your benefits that I wasn't entitled to? Oh whats that? God, for some reason, chose to give you more than me, even though he could give same to me...
People should be equal for sake of fairness - what did you do to be Gods chosen people that others didn't - its not something you have a good answer for, all you can say is "Its God's plan", it all seems just egoistic.
I just believe God should see every human in his eyes equally or he is immoral (on creation). I understand God will reward people who do good deeds etc, but I am talking about you being destined by God to be created as an inferior being, for which has no knowable reason.
No offence but I tend to believe that "humanism" is simply religion sans God. Their morality is based on religious morals.
As for God as the parent - this is not the correct analogy which is why it doesn't work. The point is that the Three Patriarchs were rich and passed that to their children. Immoral? Not by the standards most of us live by.
But even if we take God as a parent we would say that a parent is entitled to give more money to the son that looks after him, that helps him, that is kind to him etc, than to a son who doesn't call him at all and ignores him. Or would you say that too is immoral?
I have explained what Jews did - their forefathers worshipped God when all others didn't. They earned the reward for themselves to have their children benefit. Is it immoral to bestow reward on people or to have that reward be in the form of advantages to the children of that person?
Take a simple analogy. Suppose I have a friend who helps me out a lot. He is a true friend. I might want to reward him for this friendship. Suppose I pay for his kids to go to university as the reward. Is that immoral because the children didn't do anything to earn that benefit? No normal person would say so.
Aha, but here is wher I will get you!
You claim the jews are being treated superior because they are helping God (or atleast their ancestors) - seeing as you used your friend arguement.
But I ask you again, why did you get chosen to be the ancestor of the guy who helped GOD and hence receive the BENEFITS that I could have had if God willed but he didn't give me but he gave you - and for what reason? None that you know of except GODS will.
Now, imagine, you had infinite money - and you decided to benefit certain people - for somthing they had no control OVER. You could for example, just decide to give to the white people or the blacks. Similarly, God chose the PEOPLE who deserve this superiorirty from God and we had nothing to gain this special advantage.
If you read my above post correcty, I stated that God will reward people who do good deeds - hence looking after God. But, why did you get to be a decendant of those who did God good and not me? You have done nothing more than me to deserve to benefit from your ancestors - unless we was in a previous life where you was a better person than me and hence eligible for this glad tidings?
Personally, no offense but your analogies don't hold any water.
Remember, I am asking why are you the KID and not others - why are you a chosen one and not me. Personally God benefiting people because of inheritance does not seem right, with humans its differences, I think God's mercy should be a total meritocracy. As for if you pay for their kids, thats a human thing, I don't want to compare God to humans.
You claim the jews are being treated superior because they are helping God (or atleast their ancestors) - seeing as you used your friend arguement.
But I ask you again, why did you get chosen to be the ancestor of the guy who helped GOD and hence receive the BENEFITS that I could have had if God willed but he didn't give me but he gave you - and for what reason? None that you know of except GODS will.
Now, imagine, you had infinite money - and you decided to benefit certain people - for somthing they had no control OVER. You could for example, just decide to give to the white people or the blacks. Similarly, God chose the PEOPLE who deserve this superiorirty from God and we had nothing to gain this special advantage.
If you read my above post correcty, I stated that God will reward people who do good deeds - hence looking after God. But, why did you get to be a decendant of those who did God good and not me? You have done nothing more than me to deserve to benefit from your ancestors - unless we was in a previous life where you was a better person than me and hence eligible for this glad tidings?
Personally, no offense but your analogies don't hold any water.
Remember, I am asking why are you the KID and not others - why are you a chosen one and not me. Personally God benefiting people because of inheritance does not seem right, with humans its differences, I think God's mercy should be a total meritocracy. As for if you pay for their kids, thats a human thing, I don't want to compare God to humans.
So you're asking why am I me and you you and why are you not me and me not you? Well, if I were you and you were me then I would be asking why you were you and me me and why you were not me and me you? Do you see?
I think my analogies do hold water in their revelation of moral opinion. You may not want to compare God to humans but you are essentially assigning to God different moral standards than you hold for humans. Thus you accept it as moral for a human to favour a friend but not for God to do so? Why should there be any difference? If it is morally acceptable for a human to do this on what basis do you claim it is immoral for God to do so?
I think my analogies do hold water in their revelation of moral opinion. You may not want to compare God to humans but you are essentially assigning to God different moral standards than you hold for humans. Thus you accept it as moral for a human to favour a friend but not for God to do so? Why should there be any difference? If it is morally acceptable for a human to do this on what basis do you claim it is immoral for God to do so?
So you're asking why am I me and you you and why are you not me and me not you? Well, if I were you and you were me then I would be asking why you were you and me me and why you were not me and me you? Do you see
Hence the problem I have with the belief system! I think we are getting somewhere
.Oh and about the God/human comparison - Humans are limited in capabilities - God is infinite. God is also seen as omnibenevolent, humans aren't.
edit: I should go to sleep now! Nice debating with you :P. Another time!
UniOfLife
Why would I be offended if Muslims think Jews are inferior? Should I be offended that Christians think all non-Christians are inferior for not accepting Jesus as God? No. So long as Muslims don't take my supposed inferiority as a licence to harm or abuse me I don't care. Likewise Christians.
As for thinking that God could never say such a thing - No. I never had such a thought. The only basis for thinking that God could not say such a thing is if we assume that all people must be exactly equal. And this is idea exists only in one religion - Christianity - and no other that I am aware of. I don't believe all people are exactly the same and I see nothing wrong with God rewarding someone by providing extra benefits to their progeny.
As for thinking that God could never say such a thing - No. I never had such a thought. The only basis for thinking that God could not say such a thing is if we assume that all people must be exactly equal. And this is idea exists only in one religion - Christianity - and no other that I am aware of. I don't believe all people are exactly the same and I see nothing wrong with God rewarding someone by providing extra benefits to their progeny.
I think that in the majority of Christian denominations, Christians do not view non-believers/non-followers as 'inferior' at all. And they certainly don't believe that God thinks that certain people are inferior. In fact, I think that was one of Jesus's main theses.
I don't see why it has to boil down to what various faiths think anyway; as a non-religeous secular humanist, I find it abhorrent and arrogant that anyone would believe in the existance of a God who views people as superior and inferior, especially when this is based not on their actions but their birth or race. To me, this is as bad as believing that black people are an inferior race or believing that aryans are a superior race. I am suprised that you can't understand that people find that type of belief untasteful.
I also find it strange that you would not find it distasteful if certain people believed that Jews were inferior.
UniOfLife
I find it hard to imagine that many non-Jews feel deeply offended that Jews believe that in the eyes of God Jews are somehow superior. If they believe in Judaism then they would believe this too. If they don't believe in Judaism they don't believe this.
You find it hard to imagine that people find the concept that some people believe that there is a God who views them as superior and others inferior distasteful? Just because you don't believe it, doesn't mean that you don't find it distasteful that others do.
I don't believe many other prejudices but that doesn't stop me from finding that other people do believe in them.
Of course people find it offensive that others lay claim to a God who views them as inferior.
I think another problem that people have is that this belief forces an insularity and seperation of secular community.
Jake22
You find it hard to imagine that people find the concept that some people believe that there is a God who views them as superior and others inferior distasteful? Just because you don't believe it, doesn't mean that you don't find it distasteful that others do.
I don't believe many other prejudices but that doesn't stop me from finding that other people do believe in them.
Of course people find it offensive that others lay claim to a God who views them as inferior.
I think another problem that people have is that this belief forces an insularity and seperation of secular community.
I don't believe many other prejudices but that doesn't stop me from finding that other people do believe in them.
Of course people find it offensive that others lay claim to a God who views them as inferior.
I think another problem that people have is that this belief forces an insularity and seperation of secular community.
+1
Uni, you may be confusing several issues...
Judaism does believe that all men are created equal (or words to that effect) and I still maintain that the idea that God considers the Jewish people superior is not true. Jews have a moral obligation towards everyone.
I personally find the idea of a god who has some sort of human hierarchy very distasteful. Ideas such as this may have emerged due to the need for a sense of self-importance within various religious frameworks, which is why religion itself is so popular. When you are part of a group, you not only get a sense of belonging, but a sense of purpose, which can sometimes lead to superiority complexes. Judaism and some other religions may fall victim to this (read Philip Roth - very alert) but in Judaism, this is a product of religious organisation and is not in its design.
Judaism does believe that all men are created equal (or words to that effect) and I still maintain that the idea that God considers the Jewish people superior is not true. Jews have a moral obligation towards everyone.
I personally find the idea of a god who has some sort of human hierarchy very distasteful. Ideas such as this may have emerged due to the need for a sense of self-importance within various religious frameworks, which is why religion itself is so popular. When you are part of a group, you not only get a sense of belonging, but a sense of purpose, which can sometimes lead to superiority complexes. Judaism and some other religions may fall victim to this (read Philip Roth - very alert) but in Judaism, this is a product of religious organisation and is not in its design.
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