The Student Room Group

Scroll to see replies

Reply 60
chrisjorg
But that is an entirely different discussion. It is true that proven mathematical truths remain largely static, and therefore constant. It is also true that science is uncapable of providing you with an absolute truth and instead we take inductive logic as being a method providing you with enough justification to say that it is true, yet things may still be untrue (All swans are white, yet in Europe they might be, but there are still black swans in Australia, thus showing how vulnerable scientific inductive logic is).

Besides I would remind you that science does not have idiotic axioms that are not proven. This takes a great deal of fame of mathematical proofs.

In terms of which science is most important (assuming that maths is just applied logic and therefore not a science per se) chemistry and bio are applied physics (chem>bio). To the OP, the most fundamental might be physics, but without chemistry you would be lacking all sorts of things to progress in terms of physics. Without chemistry you would not have polymeric materials for your computer and so on, and all of this could have been discovered using very, very simple mathematics. In fact if you disregard quantum chemistry the entire field is somewhat independent of maths, and for me this makes it so fundamental.

No maths uses logic(i.e. induction)to derive theories, just like physics uses maths(i.e calculus) to derive theories, theres absolutely no difference.
Reply 61
chrisjorg
Without chem you would be back in the 18th century.
Without physics we would still be well off although fields like mechanical engineering, skyscrapers and so on would be inexistent, but we would still have all of our nice chemical products.

Are you joking? technology wouldn't exist including your radio, TV, ipod, mp3, computer and other electronics, cars, buses, trams, trains, planes, jets, rockets, power stations, even guns, tanks, etc.
Reply 62
Are you joking? technology wouldn't exist including your radio, TV, ipod, mp3, computer and other electronics, cars, buses, trams, trains, planes, jets, rockets, power stations, even guns, tanks, etc.

Yes but without chemistry such inventions would be inconceivable. You cannot refute the fact that chemistry becomes more fundamental here.
The things is you can't just seperate out what we now call physics and chemistry and try and imagine a world without one or the other, it just doesn't make sense. Many scientists have used the products of other disciplines to forward their research, granted without the synthetic materials the chemistry creates we would struggle to carry out modern physical research, but how were those materials created? In the case of polymers through a thorough understanding of the thermodynamics and kinetics of polymerisation (i.e. physics). You see all the sciences are so interlinked that they cannot function on their own.
Reply 64
chrisjorg
Yes but without chemistry such inventions would be inconceivable. You cannot refute the fact that chemistry becomes more fundamental here.


Ridiculous, you cannot seperate science so throughly like that, each scientist "stands on the sholders of giants" You would agree that whole branches of chemistry would be untennable without the work of Faraday to name but one?
Reply 65
Morgan141
(e.g. y = mx becomes f = ma) it becomes physics.

First of all F=ma is not an application of y=mx, instead it is an application of differential calculus. When Newton came out with this second law of motion, he said the resultant force is the rate of change of momentum, i.e d(mv)/dt. Hence applying the product rule we get F = dm/dt(v) + dv/dt(m), so if mass is constant dm/dt = 0, and the equation reduces to F = dv/dt(m), hence F=ma.
Wiseguy.
First of all F=ma is not an application of y=mx, instead it is an application of differential calculus. When Newton came out with this second law of motion, he said the resultant force is the rate of change of momentum, i.e d(mv)/dt. Hence applying the product rule we get F = dm/dt(v) + dv/dt(m), so if mass is constant dm/dt = 0, and the equation reduces to F = dv/dt(m), hence F=ma.


Firstly, all you've done is prove the equation using the calculus branch of mathematics; incidentally something which is taught in the A-level C1 module. Newton used maths to reach his conclusion.

Secondly, you can apply the mathematical equation y=mx to the physical equation of F=ma (and vice versa), thus producing a graph of which one can easily extract information. Dividing the y-axis (Mass) by the x-axis (Acceleration) will give the gradient (Force). Further mathematical deductions similar to the one previously described can help interpret equations (including using the calculus you previously describe); hence why maths is an extremely important tool in physics. I would say maths is the fundamental science. It is the one conclusive proof which most science is based on. However, the debate is wanting to make a futile conclusion. We need all sciences; after all, they're all inter-related. Maths cannot purely describe elements; it requires a combination of all fields of science.
Reply 67
what is the most "fundamental"? Physics with no doubt :smile:
Reply 68
What's all this debating about?
Reply 69
About which is the most fundamental science. Which isn't the most productive. But who said forums are supposed to be productive? :p:
Reply 70
Pure maths is not a science, but it's a technicality, science must have experimental results applicable to real world hypothesis. Pure maths has no real world application by definition, although that doesn't make it useless: far from it, look at imaginary numbers, where would physics be without those? That said though most applied maths is technically science, but as to what degree depends what it's applied too. Depending on your maths course you can either get a BA or BSc.

Physics is the most fundemental, simply because it deals with all matter at the most fundamental level, without it we would not understand how electromagnetism works, or how nuclear decay works, or indeed how atoms are held together at all. That said though most fundamental does not mean most important; as to our every day lives, atm with genetic engineering etc I think biology is the most important to us directly.

But should physicists invent a quantum computer that works in any conditions or fusion power that is efficient, or harness antimatter reactions, you'll find Physics back at the top. Chemistry has probably slid a bit but it's still a very, very vital science. Albeit that some of the most interesting matter experiments these days, such as those dealing with superconductivity and nanotech fall under physics and or biology in the case of nanotech.

To be honest, without interaction between all of them, they'd probably all be worthless. So it's kind of a redundant question anyway, each has had it's day and no doubt will still continue to. More Nobel prizes have been handed out for chemistry than anything else, Watson and Crick got the Nobel prize for chemistry for their work on DNA, how glad are biologists of that :smile:
Sidhe
More Nobel prizes have been handed out for chemistry than anything else


Erm, nobel prizes have been awarded for physics, chemistry, physiology and medicine, literature and peace since 1901, with a break during the world wars. No one prize has been given more than the others.
Reply 72
Either Physics or Chemistry, both subjects have made huge contributions to humanity.

In my opinion Physics>Chemistry>Biology
Reply 73
Physics teaches us about the most fundamental things in existence. No question.

Science at its most fundamental level, can only be described by Physics.

Bonding in Chemistry (for example) can be most fundamentally (although probably least economically) understood by the interactions of individual particles through the four fundamental forces.

The manipulation of materials on tiny scales was first pioneered by physicists, then applied by biologists and chemists in the fields of genetic engineering and nanotechnology respectively.
Physics is clearly more fundamental in conception. This shouldn't be confused with worthiness or 'betterness' though. All areas of scientific research are of importance in understanding our world.
Reply 75
ChemistBoy
Erm, nobel prizes have been awarded for physics, chemistry, physiology and medicine, literature and peace since 1901, with a break during the world wars. No one prize has been given more than the others.


hmm I was misinformed then.

Actually looking at the records, the Nobel prize for physics has been awarded more than others, some years there was no one worthy so they just deferred.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates
Reply 76
^^ Not forgetting that Ernst Rutherford was awarded a Nobel Prize in Chemistry for his discovery of atomic structure?
Sidhe
hmm I was misinformed then.

Actually looking at the records, the Nobel prize for physics has been awarded more than others, some years there was no one worthy so they just deferred.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates


The years in which the prizes were not awarded are nothing to do with worthiness. Do the dates have any special significance?
I went to a seminar about Circadian rhythm today and it was described by the theories of wave physics i.e. amplitude, frequency etc. I have been a biologist for ages but I would still say that if you take any science and keep breaking it down you get to physics. However, that isnt necessary reflected by achievements in science in terms of economics, saving lives, saving the planet etc. We wont say anything more about the relationship between Einstein's work and the atomic bomb, or virology and germ warfare.
Reply 79
such as those dealing with superconductivity and nanotech fall under physics and or biology in the case of nanotech.


A great deal of nanotechnology is surface chemistry.

Latest

Trending

Trending