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Is Britain's sea border its biggest asset during this refugee crisis?

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Original post by Skip_Snip
We? I never did such a thing, and I'll assume you didn't either. And yet it's ordinary folk, not the politicians, who have to live among the refugees.


I am saying we as in our government but if you actually want to be serious the only people that can influence what our government does when it comes to it's foreign policy decisions is it's own population so In a way we do have some moral fault in this crisis.
Original post by Betelgeuse-
Germany are not taking in 160,000,000 are they?? Thats the number of people they would need to match our population density...
We also have a considerably higher birthrate than Germany 12.2 / 1000 to 8.4 / 1000


How on Earth did you get to that calculation?
Original post by HItchslapped
I am saying we as in our government but if you actually want to be serious the only people that can influence what our government does when it comes to it's foreign policy decisions is it's own population so In a way we do have some moral fault in this crisis.


Those actions weren't put to vote, and they were carried out by both Labour and Tory parties. So choosing a different government didn't make a difference.

Therefore, we have no fault.
Original post by HItchslapped
How on Earth did you get to that calculation?


Picked the wrong stat, Germany would need to take 67,000,000 to match England.
Original post by Skip_Snip
Those actions weren't put to vote, and they were carried out by both Labour and Tory parties. So choosing a different government didn't make a difference.

Therefore, we have no fault.


Well apparently we live in a democracy so actions carried out by elected party members are influenced by the population.
Original post by Betelgeuse-
Picked the wrong stat, Germany would need to take 67,000,000 to match England.


Right..... but how on Earth this you come this new calculation?
Original post by HItchslapped
The number of civilians who died as a result of the war is in the hundreds of thousands.

http://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians

I didn't ask how many died in the war, I asked how many civilians did Britain kill?
Original post by HItchslapped
I am going to be completely candid on this matter. With regards to Iraq, our country along with the US bombed and killed nearly a million people, leaving several more million in starvation and thus creating the circumstances in which ISIS emerged. We invaded Afghanistan killing hundreds of thousands of people, now it has the third largest number of refugees fleeing the country. We bombed Libya creating the largest uncontrolled border crossing from North Africa to Europe and have left that country devastated with no rule of law. And you're still contemplating whether we should even take in refugees we created?!


Rubbish! Get a grip will you, where are you pulling these figures from, fairy land? I'd like a credible source in you next post. No, newspapers and media outlets don't count.

The US invaded Afgan in response for the 9/11 attacks against it, pretty justified actions. A lot of people seem to forget that. They went to destroy the Taliban and AQ, which was harboured by the Taliban, then the...well... "government" of Afgan.

We created a no fly zone over Libya, to stop Gadaffi from bombing his own people, which he had started to do when they revolted against him in 2011. We also used guided missiles to destroy a few artilley/AA/command emplacements. This was even requested by it's own UN delegation!

Im not sure what your idea of 'bombing' is but this isn't World War 2.....bombs are droped from fast, small payload fighter bombers and are laser guided onto targets. Cruise missiles also fly off and self destruct if they fail to find their target.

The arab spring would have happened and been supressed more violently without our intervention.

Just to finish knocking your argument on the head, Syria and Eritrea has the highest concentration of refugees and we've had nothing to do with them.
Original post by HItchslapped
Right..... but how on Earth this you come this new calculation?


England 53,000,000 ppl - 413km/2 - Land mass 130,279km/2
Germany 81,000,000 ppl 226km/2 - Land mass 357,021km/2
Original post by billydisco
I didn't ask how many died in the war, I asked how many civilians did Britain kill?



How is that relevant? When our country as-well as the USA leads an invasion of another country by acting as the aggressors, then the number of civilians deaths killed as a result of the invasion is our responsibility and that's basic international law never mine morality.
Original post by HItchslapped
Well apparently we live in a democracy so actions carried out by elected party members are influenced by the population.


Oh cmon you are aware that even political parties get divided over certain issues, nevermind the 30%-45% of the population that voted them which could have been due many differentiating reasons
Original post by HItchslapped
How is that relevant? When our country as-well as the USA leads an invasion of another country by acting as the aggressors, then the number of civilians deaths killed as a result of the invasion is our responsibility and that's basic international law never mine morality.

You said we killed hundreds of thousands of civilians.

Where is your source for Britain killing hundreds of thousands of civilians?
Original post by billydisco
You said we killed hundreds of thousands of civilians.

Where is your source for Britain killing hundreds of thousands of civilians?


I said we as in the west which includes the UK.


http://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians
Original post by Betelgeuse-
England 53,000,000 ppl - 413km/2 - Land mass 130,279km/2
Germany 81,000,000 ppl 226km/2 - Land mass 357,021km/2


The distribution of refugees is based on the UK not just England so your figures are inaccurate. Furthermore going back to the actual topic Germany has taken 20 times the number of Syrian refugees than the UK and if you want to be really serious as I said before, take a look at Lebanon and the near 2 million refugees they have taken in.
Original post by Betelgeuse-
Oh cmon you are aware that even political parties get divided over certain issues, nevermind the 30%-45% of the population that voted them which could have been due many differentiating reasons


I agree to your qualification. It does not stop the fact we have some moral responsibility.
Original post by Pegasus2
Rubbish! Get a grip will you, where are you pulling these figures from, fairy land? I'd like a credible source in you next post. No, newspapers and media outlets don't count.

The US invaded Afgan in response for the 9/11 attacks against it, pretty justified actions. A lot of people seem to forget that. They went to destroy the Taliban and AQ, which was harboured by the Taliban, then the...well... "government" of Afgan.

We created a no fly zone over Libya, to stop Gadaffi from bombing his own people, which he had started to do when they revolted against him in 2011. We also used guided missiles to destroy a few artilley/AA/command emplacements. This was even requested by it's own UN delegation!

Im not sure what your idea of 'bombing' is but this isn't World War 2.....bombs are droped from fast, small payload fighter bombers and are laser guided onto targets. Cruise missiles also fly off and self destruct if they fail to find their target.

The arab spring would have happened and been supressed more violently without our intervention.

Just to finish knocking your argument on the head, Syria and Eritrea has the highest concentration of refugees and we've had nothing to do with them.


To avoid getting in a long correspondence, I told you, take a look at the Lancet medical journal regarding the number of civilians casualties in Iraq as a result of the US invasion.
Original post by HItchslapped
The distribution of refugees is based on the UK not just England so your figures are inaccurate. Furthermore going back to the actual topic Germany has taken 20 times the number of Syrian refugees than the UK and if you want to be really serious as I said before, take a look at Lebanon and the near 2 million refugees they have taken in.


Yes and the vast majority will congregate in England's cities. Won't be in the rural wealthy constituencies or in the rolling welsh hills. Of course back on topic none of this matters because Fuhrer Merkel is calling the shots

Yes its terrible for Lebanon
A problem people may often fail to consider is that, by taking in more refugees, it could inadvertently result in a surge of thousands more attempting to cross into Europe, thereby resulting in more children washing up on beaches. Our nations aren't necessarily assuring safe passage - this should be the priority, not the quotas. There's also the security issues to consider. Thousands of people (whom we know little about) are coming from a war zone and suddenly asking for a place to stay.

I think we should be more pragmatic and approach this issue with a more detached attitude. As moved as I am by all the photographs, we need to make level-headed, practical decisions, and consider the risks and limitations. We can't just swing open the floodgates, so to speak, because some feel we have a moral obligation. Where are they going to be housed? How long will they stay? Can the public services sustain them? What are the safety implications? Etc.
Original post by Betelgeuse-
Yes and the vast majority will congregate in England's cities. Won't be in the rural wealthy constituencies or in the rolling welsh hills. Of course back on topic none of this matters because Fuhrer Merkel is calling the shots

Yes its terrible for Lebanon



Well I am not too sure whether 'Fuhrer' Merkel is calling the shots when currently Germany houses more Syrian refugees then nearly the rest of Europe combined ( certainly more than the UK, France, Sweden and Italy together). We have taken in 4 times less syrian refugees than Sweden.

Sorry but can I actually have solid evidence that if we took in the number of refugees the UN have requested based on out GDP, employment and Population the country won't cope.
Original post by HItchslapped
To avoid getting in a long correspondence, I told you, take a look at the Lancet medical journal regarding the number of civilians casualties in Iraq as a result of the US invasion.


Ahh yes, the Lancet report. Well known for being ropier than most rope bridges.

It's really not credible, to get a death toll as high as suggested by them you'd have to start lining people up and shooting them in the street. Even with that crazy number, only 37% are attribuable to coalition forces.

They're the only report to state such obscenely high toll and were trumped by a same methodology report that used a _much_ (33 vs 900+) larger sample size and came out with a much lower and more realistic result.

There is also the issue of 550,000 or so death certificates that don't exist for all the numbers in the report.

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