Will they steal the election from Trump?

Trump may not get a majority of the delegates. However, the two leading candidates are Trump and Cruz and both represent the anti-establishment in most voters minds. The point is that an overwhelming majority have voted against any establishment candidate. If a brokered convention leads to a Trump or Cruz nomination, then outcome can be justified. If a brokered convention leads to some establishment preferred candidate being nominated through the back door, then the voters have been defied. The Republican National Party's role is to facilitate the election of a nominee. It is not to manipulate the election just because they dislike the frontrunners.

Reply 83

plstudent

Original post by ckingalt

Trump may not get a majority of the delegates. However, the two leading candidates are Trump and Cruz and both represent the anti-establishment in most voters minds. The point is that an overwhelming majority have voted against any establishment candidate. If a brokered convention leads to a Trump or Cruz nomination, then outcome can be justified. If a brokered convention leads to some establishment preferred candidate being nominated through the back door, then the voters have been defied. The Republican National Party's role is to facilitate the election of a nominee. It is not to manipulate the election just because they dislike the frontrunners.

Cruz is not really anti-establishment. He is a politician and lawyer that deceives people. He is only still relveant in the election because of religious nuts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1qOA2PVDS8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtL41Pr2d5s

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 84

Original post by plstudent

Cruz is not really anti-establishment. He is a politician and lawyer that deceives people. He is only still relveant in the election because of religious nuts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1qOA2PVDS8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtL41Pr2d5s

He is anti-establishment because the establishment hates him

Reply 85

plstudent

Original post by ckingalt

He is anti-establishment because the establishment hates him

If they hate him so much, why are they all siding with him now?

Reply 86

anarchism101

17

Original post by ckingalt

He is anti-establishment because the establishment hates him

Cruz is part of the hard-right Republican fringe than has been effectively integrated into the party in the past 20-30 years or so, first with the Christian right, then the Tea Party (and precursors). They're as much a part of the established party as the moderates, just a more extreme minority faction of it.

Trump is a different beast; he seems to be using the party as a vehicle rather than considering himself part of it as such, seems to have little guiding ideological principle or pragmatism (at least, not of the conventional kind), and is all-round much more chaotic.

Reply 87

alcibiade

11

Original post by PleaseListen

The majority of republican voters want him as President, but that isn't enough. There are forces at work who are doing everything to stop him being nominated. Why? Even if you detest Trump, this is wrong and shows Democracy is a farce in America. The same can be said with Sanders and the super delegates that benefited Hillary greatly. They are clearly rigging the system so that only people they want in power can be elected.

You really need to get some basic political science facts straight. A plurality of republican voters want Trump, not a majority. If he doesn't have a majority, he doesn't win automatically, so the process opens up to vote trading and negotiation. Are we understanding yet?

In the case of Sanders, it is closer, but Hillary probably won't win the nomination from superdelegates - she is winning from directly won delegates so far. That being said, the reason she has more superdelegates is that Sanders did not consider himself a democrat, so didn't make the connections Hillary has made since the early 1970s. You can debate whether or not superdelegates should be part of the process, but that is the reason they prefer her.

You seem to naively assume that some flawless ideal exists. I agree that there is nothing special about American democracy, that it somehow is better than all the others. But all systems have their quirks and flaws.

Reply 88

Original post by plstudent

If they hate him so much, why are they all siding with him now?

By boosting Cruz's potential to gain more delegates, they are preventing Trump from gaining the necessary majority. As soon as a contested convention can be ensured, they will dump Cruz and seek to put an alternative to Trump and Cruz on the ticket. Supporting Cruz right now is merely a preventative strategy.

Reply 89

Original post by anarchism101

Cruz is part of the hard-right Republican fringe than has been effectively integrated into the party in the past 20-30 years or so, first with the Christian right, then the Tea Party (and precursors). They're as much a part of the established party as the moderates, just a more extreme minority faction of it.

Trump is a different beast; he seems to be using the party as a vehicle rather than considering himself part of it as such, seems to have little guiding ideological principle or pragmatism (at least, not of the conventional kind), and is all-round much more chaotic.

Who "The Establishment" is depends on perspective. When I refer to "The Establishment", I'm thinking of a collective of career politicians, influential members of the press, and wealthy donors, but that isn't the only criteria. They travel the same circles, they approve of one another even if they disagree, and they ensure their own relevancy by providing access to one another on a quid pro quo basis. The greatest asset these players have is there ability to call a guy who know a guy when something of equal value is offered in return. The most valuable prize of all is access to the POTUS. Both Cruz and Trump are not only excluded from this group, but they are despised by it. If either is elected the balance of Beltway power gets shifted somewhat.

That is why both Cruz and Trump are anti-establishment.

Reply 90

anarchism101

17

Original post by ckingalt

Who "The Establishment" is depends on perspective. When I refer to "The Establishment", I'm thinking of a collective of career politicians, influential members of the press, and wealthy donors, but that isn't the only criteria. They travel the same circles, they approve of one another even if they disagree, and they ensure their own relevancy by providing access to one another on a quid pro quo basis. The greatest asset these players have is there ability to call a guy who know a guy when something of equal value is offered in return. The most valuable prize of all is access to the POTUS. Both Cruz and Trump are not only excluded from this group, but they are despised by it. If either is elected the balance of Beltway power gets shifted somewhat.

That is why both Cruz and Trump are anti-establishment.

Are you kidding? Trump has spent his entire life in this group, he's been rolling in it for decades. He's one of those wealthy donors, he's had hugely influential deals with the media, he gets invited to all the same events and social functions as these circles you're calling "The Establishment". He admits it himself, that he's routinely used political connections and donations to his own advantage.

Cruz less so, but he's followed a fairly standard career politician route on the Republican right so far, having spent virtually his whole career in public office (though so far he's a bit young and new to call him a career politician quite yet).

Reply 91

TimmonaPortella

21

Original post by PleaseListen

shows Democracy is a farce in America.

I don't understand why regular voters in America feel so entitled as regards the parties' nominations.

The USA is a democracy. The Republican Party is not a democracy.

Reply 92

ODES_PDES

18

I hope he goes all the way.
There have been far worse presidents in my opinion than he will ever make.

Reply 93

P357

12

Original post by Alex from almanis

He won 14% of the vote and came in last there and there is speculation that the state could go blue for the first time in half a century if he is the Republican nominee: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/03/us/politics/donald-trump-general-election.html?_r=0

I very highly doubt that any Cruz supporter could EVER defer to voting democrat(be it full-blown socialism or clinton) over trump. Can you give me the link that argues in favor of this supposed "speculation". I think i may know which one you were referring to (poll taken with 500 people? If so,what a joke).

Reply 94

Alex from almanis

Original post by P357

I very highly doubt that any Cruz supporter could EVER defer to voting democrat(be it full-blown socialism or clinton) over trump. Can you give me the link that argues in favor of this supposed "speculation". I think i may know which one you were referring to (poll taken with 500 people? If so,what a joke).

I think that speculation was within the link I posted. It might not even be a case of Cruz voters voting Democrat, rather staying home if both candidates are ones they dislike. Nate Silver is a pretty highly respected pollster and he said: "The idea of Utah becoming a blue state is nuts, but not *that* nuts."

https://twitter.com/natesilver538/status/712497231819976704

Reply 95

P357

12

Original post by Alex from almanis

I think that speculation was within the link I posted. It might not even be a case of Cruz voters voting Democrat, rather staying home if both candidates are ones they dislike. Nate Silver is a pretty highly respected pollster and he said: "The idea of Utah becoming a blue state is nuts, but not *that* nuts."

https://twitter.com/natesilver538/status/712497231819976704

And you seem to assume that Cruz+Kasich voters are indifferent to Clinton(+Bernie maybe)...My point was exactly that, Cruz is far from a moderate. I don't believe anyone endorsing him would just stay home if the alternative was clinton or socialist america. I really cant see republicans staying home in 2016 considering the future of the political makeup of the supreme court is currently at stake.
Bit in bold doesn't mean much really. And that's just poor speculation. Hillary hatred is rife in utah.

Reply 96

Alex from almanis