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On this Day in History

A collection of posts about events that happened in history (OP is WIP)
(edited 2 years ago)

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December 7
1941: Imperial Japan launches a surprise attack on the US Navy base at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. 2,403 are left dead, and the United States declares war on Japan, entering World War 2.

Interesting links:
https://pearlharbor.org/effects-war-martial-law-in-hawaii/ - an article about the effects of the subsequent period of martial law in Hawaii
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niihau_incident - an account of the crash-landing of a Japanese pilot on the island of Ni'ihau
December 8
1980: rock star and former Beatle John Lennon was shot to death outside his New York City apartment building by Mark David Chapman.

Today, it is the 41st anniversary of this murder.
December 9
1868: The first traffic lights are installed outside the Palace of Westminster in London. Resembling railway signals, they use semaphore arms and are illuminated at night by red and green gas lamps.

(edited 2 years ago)
December 10
1901: First Nobel Prize in Physics awarded to Wilhelm Röntgen for his discovery of X-rays.

December 11
1936: Edward VIII announces in a radio broadcast that he is abdicating the British throne to marry Wallis Simpson.
December 12
1942: Operation Winter Storm, the failed German attempt to rescue 6th Army, begins.
December 13
1942: Operation Saturn is truncated to Operation Little Saturn due to a combination of Operation Winter Storm, 6th Army as well as German units.
December 14
1942: 2nd Guards Army is ordered towards Kotel'nikovo to halt Operation Winter Storm.

Operation Winter Storm would already be halted merely a few days later without the bulk of 2nd Guards Army.
It was an almost useless diversion that only served as Soviet incompetence, that allowed Army Group South to not get destroyed.
Looks like that I must go on in this thread:

18th December 1959:

The German research center DESY is founded in Hamburg.

19th December 1843:

Charles Dickens published A Christmas Carol.

16 December
1942: Operation Little Saturn is launched. Leading the pathetic relief operation, Manstein begins to worry about his left flank.

Despite Soviet incompetence like unnecessarily diverting 2nd Guards to block a pathetic relief operation, using too many troops against starving 6th Army, coordination issues with the armies for Little Saturn, 5th Tank Army attacking piecemeal (harming themselves), poor training, poor coordination, the Soviets still managed to encircle over half of Italian 8th Army.
(edited 2 years ago)
Reply 11
Original post by justlearning1469
16 December
1942: Operation Little Saturn is launched. Leading the pathetic relief operation, Manstein begins to worry about his left flank.

Despite Soviet incompetence like unnecessarily diverting 2nd Guards to block a pathetic relief operation, using too many troops against starving 6th Army, coordination issues with the armies for Little Saturn, 5th Tank Army attacking piecemeal (harming themselves), poor training, poor coordination, the Soviets still managed to encircle over half of Italian 8th Army.

Why do you think you're a better strategist than every WWII general, out of interest?
20th December
1812: "Grimm's Fairy Tales" or "Children's and Household Tales" by Jacob Grimm and Wilhelm Grimm is first published.
Original post by Napp
Why do you think you're a better strategist than every WWII general, out of interest?

Well first of all we have our strong hindsight while those generals don't.

Second now we know that the Soviets put too many troops in Stalingrad after the encirclement. We also know the precarious supply situation of the Germans from around late-September. By October the Germans had placed boatloads of their horses from 6th Army to Rostov, preventing 6th Army from moving. That plus various supply issues that forced rationing even before the encirclement meant that it was over for 6th from October 14.

The Oct 14 attack was merely a last gasp that put 6th Army even further into the Soviet trap (which was actually decent).

No wonder why the Germans were caught quite unprepared when Uranus came. Even if the Germans knew, they were simply too exhausted to do anything from mid-October.
(edited 2 years ago)
Reply 14
Original post by justlearning1469
Well first of all we have our strong hindsight while those generals don't.

Second now we know that the Soviets put too many troops in Stalingrad after the encirclement. We also know the precarious supply situation of the Germans from around late-September. By October the Germans had placed boatloads of their horses from 6th Army to Rostov, preventing 6th Army from moving. That plus various supply issues that forced rationing even before the encirclement meant that it was over for 6th from October 14.

The Oct 14 attack was merely a last gasp that put 6th Army even further into the Soviet trap (which was actually decent).

No wonder why the Germans were caught quite unprepared when Uranus came. Even if the Germans knew, they were simply too exhausted to do anything from mid-October.

And yet you misuse said hindsight spectacularly with every counter factual...

Not sure why you're using this argument of your dozens, the more amusing being that the Germans were both an exceptionally powerful war machine whilst simultaneously being incompetent and easily beatable..

Case in point, counter factuals are ridiculous as is being an arm chair historian. Not least in that wiki/youtube are not sources any academic would countenance..
December 21 (Winter Solstice, Northern Hemisphere)
1915: Raymond Asquith, the son of England's last Liberal Prime Minister, Herbert Asquith, served in the First World War in the Grenadier Guards and wrote to his wife on this day describing life in the trenches.

'Good Sport' in The Trenches

Original post by Napp
And yet you misuse said hindsight spectacularly with every counter factual...

Not sure why you're using this argument of your dozens, the more amusing being that the Germans were both an exceptionally powerful war machine whilst simultaneously being incompetent and easily beatable..

Case in point, counter factuals are ridiculous as is being an arm chair historian. Not least in that wiki/youtube are not sources any academic would countenance..

First of all, counterfactuals are actually useful to see what might've happened had something changed, which is far from 'ridiculous'.

Anyway, some of my points, about Stalingrad, concerning Soviet mistakes (as well as what could've been done to avoid them):
1. Lack of coordination and training during Kotluban Offensives
For instance, lack of communication, poor training, like attacking prematurely, attacking piecemeal etc.
OTL, Wietersheim's 14th Panzer Corp barely avoided destruction when it was relieved on 2 Sep 1942.
ATL, with more competent Soviets (for instance better commanders, slightly earlier emphasis on radios, communication), Wietersheim's Corp would be destroyed, which would leave 6th Army not able to cross the Don. They might even be forced back to the Chir.

Additionally, the Germans were quite overstretched even before reaching the city. They were insanely overstretched by late-September, with logistics issues.
By late-September, the Germans were of course exhausted, it took half a month to launch a last-gasp offensive.
The final nail in the coffin was October 14. After the attack the Germans simply were too tired to do anything.

But to be fair, despite various Soviet incompetences, the Kotluban Offensives did divert 6th Army units.

2. Zhukov attacking Germans first on October 14
This allowed the Germans to get deeper into Stalingrad than indeed the case. Had Zhukov decided to defend instead, the Germans would be more exhausted.

3. Units not in position
I've heard that during the October 14 offensive, a unit wasn't placed in the right spot, which meant the encirclement of other units and the further deterioration of the front. Had the order been given a bit in advance this could've been avoided.

4. Confusion and lack of control during Uranus execution
I know it's a bit nitpicky, but if the Soviets had planned slightly earlier like mid-September, after realising that Kotluban offensives won't encircle 6th Army.
Confusion and lack of control caused the Soviet 4th and 13th Mechanized Corps to stumble as they began to exploit the breakthroughs achieved by the opening offensive, at least according to Beevor.

5. (not that related) Incompetence during Battle of Rzhev summer 1942
"Soviet commanders did not have the latitude (or sometimes the imagination) to develop flexible tactics and often rigidly executed orders from above, even if it meant attacking head on across the same ground for days or even weeks at a time." (Gerasimova 2013, p. 101: Quoted conversation between Stalin and Antonov)
"The continued Russian tank attacks were in danger of swamping the defence, but Soviet infantry tactics remained crude with dense masses of men rushing forward, shouting 'Hurrah'." (Gerasimova 2013, p. 100)
Referring to this battle: (Gorbachevsky 2009, p. 139: Replacements had been brought up in rail cars, unloaded and sent into the attack the same day)
This means that there was boatloads of Soviet incompetence, like inflexible tactics.

Despite this glaring incompetence like suicidal attacks, the Soviets almost managed to cut the Rzhev-Vyazma railroad. Had the Kalinin Front attacked better, reducing incompetence and concentrating on Rzhev, it's quite possible that the Soviets could've encircled at least 6 German divisions.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Rzhev,_summer_1942#/media/File:Battle_of_Rzhev_-_6-9_August_1942_-_Western_Front_continues_advance.jpg)

"Von Vietinghoff, acting 9th Army commander, had already committed what reserves he had against the Kalinin Front's attack and had virtually nothing on hand to stop the new Soviet advance except Army schools, teenage helpers and a few flak guns, which he positioned at strategic points. These were not going to stop Soviet tanks for very long; German defences were wide open until the arrival of the reinforcement divisions"
9th Army was on the brink of collapse.
Reply 17
Original post by justlearning1469
First of all, counterfactuals are actually useful to see what might've happened had something changed, which is far from 'ridiculous'.

Anyway, some of my points, about Stalingrad, concerning Soviet mistakes (as well as what could've been done to avoid them):
1. Lack of coordination and training during Kotluban Offensives
For instance, lack of communication, poor training, like attacking prematurely, attacking piecemeal etc.
OTL, Wietersheim's 14th Panzer Corp barely avoided destruction when it was relieved on 2 Sep 1942.
ATL, with more competent Soviets (for instance better commanders, slightly earlier emphasis on radios, communication), Wietersheim's Corp would be destroyed, which would leave 6th Army not able to cross the Don. They might even be forced back to the Chir.

Additionally, the Germans were quite overstretched even before reaching the city. They were insanely overstretched by late-September, with logistics issues.
By late-September, the Germans were of course exhausted, it took half a month to launch a last-gasp offensive.
The final nail in the coffin was October 14. After the attack the Germans simply were too tired to do anything.

But to be fair, despite various Soviet incompetences, the Kotluban Offensives did divert 6th Army units.

2. Zhukov attacking Germans first on October 14
This allowed the Germans to get deeper into Stalingrad than indeed the case. Had Zhukov decided to defend instead, the Germans would be more exhausted.

3. Units not in position
I've heard that during the October 14 offensive, a unit wasn't placed in the right spot, which meant the encirclement of other units and the further deterioration of the front. Had the order been given a bit in advance this could've been avoided.

4. Confusion and lack of control during Uranus execution
I know it's a bit nitpicky, but if the Soviets had planned slightly earlier like mid-September, after realising that Kotluban offensives won't encircle 6th Army.
Confusion and lack of control caused the Soviet 4th and 13th Mechanized Corps to stumble as they began to exploit the breakthroughs achieved by the opening offensive, at least according to Beevor.

5. (not that related) Incompetence during Battle of Rzhev summer 1942
"Soviet commanders did not have the latitude (or sometimes the imagination) to develop flexible tactics and often rigidly executed orders from above, even if it meant attacking head on across the same ground for days or even weeks at a time." (Gerasimova 2013, p. 101: Quoted conversation between Stalin and Antonov)
"The continued Russian tank attacks were in danger of swamping the defence, but Soviet infantry tactics remained crude with dense masses of men rushing forward, shouting 'Hurrah'." (Gerasimova 2013, p. 100)
Referring to this battle: (Gorbachevsky 2009, p. 139: Replacements had been brought up in rail cars, unloaded and sent into the attack the same day)
This means that there was boatloads of Soviet incompetence, like inflexible tactics.

Despite this glaring incompetence like suicidal attacks, the Soviets almost managed to cut the Rzhev-Vyazma railroad. Had the Kalinin Front attacked better, reducing incompetence and concentrating on Rzhev, it's quite possible that the Soviets could've encircled at least 6 German divisions.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Rzhev,_summer_1942#/media/File:Battle_of_Rzhev_-_6-9_August_1942_-_Western_Front_continues_advance.jpg)

"Von Vietinghoff, acting 9th Army commander, had already committed what reserves he had against the Kalinin Front's attack and had virtually nothing on hand to stop the new Soviet advance except Army schools, teenage helpers and a few flak guns, which he positioned at strategic points. These were not going to stop Soviet tanks for very long; German defences were wide open until the arrival of the reinforcement divisions"
9th Army was on the brink of collapse.

Not when they presuppose complete nonsense...

I'm not sure why you're listing these points at me as they have nothing to do with anything i've said...
@justlearning1469 @Napp I appreciate the discussion of events featured in this thread, but I fear this is getting a bit off-topic. Please stay away from lengthy arguments.
Original post by Vapordave
20th December
1812: "Grimm's Fairy Tales" or "Children's and Household Tales" by Jacob Grimm and Wilhelm Grimm is first published.

:h:
My mother and grandmother read the tales when I was a kid. My favorite book in young years I was grown up with.
(edited 2 years ago)

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