Medicine Community Feedback and Suggestions

Offer holder threads - the plan for 2023 entry

Hiya, lots of people have been asking us about Offer holder threads for medicine and asking for some to be made.

The Universities Volunteer and Forum Helper team have been thinking about this a lot over the coming months and have come up with the following plan for 2023:

- All 2023 applicants' threads will have their titles changed to "Applicant and Offer Holder threads 2023 entry" unless there already exists an offer holder thread for that course.

- The Volunteers and FHs are not going to be mass creating offer holder threads. Reasons for this are shared below.

- Any offer holder threads created already are legitimate and will be indexed as being official, and given a gold title.

- Users are free to create an offer holder thread for a particular course if none exists. Post a link in here (or in the index thread) for it to be added to the index.

- Duplicate offer holder threads will be merged with the existing one, unless it is too large - whereby it shall be closed.

- Any sharing of social media / phone number / email details in offer holder threads will be treated severely. Threads will be closed if users repeatedly do not follow this.


Why are we doing this?
- It's a lot of additional work for Forum Helpers and Volunteers to create loads of threads, and we don't want to put this expectation on our already busy team.
- The boffins at TSR HQ have determined that overall, more people end up finding TSR with just an applicant thread rather than an offer holder one as well.
- This is because having two threads can split engagement and therefore views on both threads is significantly lower than the views on one of them.
- Ultimately, we all want the highest number of people possible to see the excellent advice shared within the medicine community, the more people that can be part of that, the better.
- For some courses, offers are fed in at different times, so it is natural for these to have an offer holder thread created. But each institution operates differently and has different contexts, so having a blanket rule that all courses should have an offer holder thread doesn't fit this.
- Across the universities section there has been significant rule breaking in offer holder threads specifically, this isn't something we want to promote.



Any questions please do share!

I am quoting in everyone who has posted in the above discussion, plus some of the top posters from the Med Schools forum so that you're aware.

I will be spending some time today putting the above into action for all the threads that currently exist. Please have patience as this might happen sporadically throughout the day.

MR

Whilst I understand this from a technical perspective can I just reiterate from a user perspective that there are some significant sensitivities around this.

If an individual is waiting for an offer then seeing others getting in and moving on is a bit of a challenge. The more happy people there are the more difficult it becomes for those who are less so, or waiting.

In a normal world where an individual is straight rejected then the threads would probably eventually shift to a more positive tone over time.

However, with medicine and the advent of widespread reserves lists there are going to be a lot of people in a state of high stress and uncertainty right up until results day - and even beyond last year.

Combining this with a bunch of people who quite rightly want to celebrate and talk about their accommodation and all the fun stuff they are going to do just seems like a bit of an extra punch in the face to be honest. And puts a bit of a dampner on their discussions too.

I am sure that TSR will do what it deems best, but I am a bit disappointed that it would prioritise "views" over the mental wellbeing of its users.

Sounds a bit harsh put like that, and I am sorry. But its my perspective. I am only a parent not an applicant so their thoughts are more important.

But it is obvious from some of the posts lately that the level of stress that these kids are under is immense and in my view it would be good to try and mitigate it where possible.

Whilst I understand this from a technical perspective can I just reiterate from a user perspective that there are some significant sensitivities around this.

If an individual is waiting for an offer then seeing others getting in and moving on is a bit of a challenge. The more happy people there are the more difficult it becomes for those who are less so, or waiting.

In a normal world where an individual is straight rejected then the threads would probably eventually shift to a more positive tone over time.

However, with medicine and the advent of widespread reserves lists there are going to be a lot of people in a state of high stress and uncertainty right up until results day - and even beyond last year.

Combining this with a bunch of people who quite rightly want to celebrate and talk about their accommodation and all the fun stuff they are going to do just seems like a bit of an extra punch in the face to be honest. And puts a bit of a dampner on their discussions too.

I am sure that TSR will do what it deems best, but I am a bit disappointed that it would prioritise "views" over the mental wellbeing of its users.

Sounds a bit harsh put like that, and I am sorry. But its my perspective. I am only a parent not an applicant so their thoughts are more important.

But it is obvious from some of the posts lately that the level of stress that these kids are under is immense and in my view it would be good to try and mitigate it where possible.

Agreed. I applied twice for medicine and actually left TSR between applications as it was so demoralising still waiting for interview invites or rejections from my chosen unis while others on the same threads were talking about accommodation options and firm choices

Whilst I understand this from a technical perspective can I just reiterate from a user perspective that there are some significant sensitivities around this.

If an individual is waiting for an offer then seeing others getting in and moving on is a bit of a challenge. The more happy people there are the more difficult it becomes for those who are less so, or waiting.

In a normal world where an individual is straight rejected then the threads would probably eventually shift to a more positive tone over time.

However, with medicine and the advent of widespread reserves lists there are going to be a lot of people in a state of high stress and uncertainty right up until results day - and even beyond last year.

Combining this with a bunch of people who quite rightly want to celebrate and talk about their accommodation and all the fun stuff they are going to do just seems like a bit of an extra punch in the face to be honest. And puts a bit of a dampner on their discussions too.

I am sure that TSR will do what it deems best, but I am a bit disappointed that it would prioritise "views" over the mental wellbeing of its users.

Sounds a bit harsh put like that, and I am sorry. But its my perspective. I am only a parent not an applicant so their thoughts are more important.

But it is obvious from some of the posts lately that the level of stress that these kids are under is immense and in my view it would be good to try and mitigate it where possible.

I would have thought there is (or could be) a paid admin who could bang up the Offer Holders' Threads in a few hours, if the Volunteers are too busy. But that would involve a financial cost, rather than relying on goodwill. My understanding is the Medicine Forum brings a lot of money into TSR, and certainly is a big draw for footfall, but if the experience at the end of the click is underwhelming, that is not going to continue, sadly. The reason people ask for off site links in Offer Holder threads is that TSR is not offering them what they are looking for. People get directed here from other SM sites for the "Which med school" and other application information.

The reason people ask for off site links in Offer Holder threads is that TSR is not offering them what they are looking for.

On social media being a competitior for TSR: yes it is, and this has been known for years. The reality TSR doesn't have the capacity for transforming itself into a rival for WhatsApp, discord, Instagram, or any of these other multinationals that the youth nowadays are all following. Maybe with some different decisions in 2008-2013 they could have been, but we're well past that now.

I can only speak for myself, but I do this for nothing because I want to help as many people as possible. This decision was made to (hopefully) widen the number of people who might find TSR Medicine.

There are a myriad of complex reasons that bring people to stay active in this community - that I don't fully understand. The existence of an offer holder thread seems to be one of them, so I'm glad we didn't decide to remove them. TSR has previously shared evidence that user-generated content (ie people making their own offer holder threads) does tend to go better than content that's been created in a uniform manner with no deviation. So again, this decision is to try and keep people with the site.

I'll be completely transparent (because we all want transparency), I've found it quite concerning that TSR as a business is being criticised for disregarding mental health and wellbeing, over a decision that was made by a collection of unis volunteers partly motivated by a need to preserve our own mental health and wellbeing. This isn't about not having enough time, this is about the expectations being placed on us to do things users can freely do themselves.

On a personal level I would appreciate it if we all remembered there's a human being on the other end of the screen here, be they staff, volunteer or members of the community

MR

On social media being a competitior for TSR: yes it is, and this has been known for years. The reality TSR doesn't have the capacity for transforming itself into a rival for WhatsApp, discord, Instagram, or any of these other multinationals that the youth nowadays are all following. Maybe with some different decisions in 2008-2013 they could have been, but we're well past that now.

I can only speak for myself, but I do this for nothing because I want to help as many people as possible. This decision was made to (hopefully) widen the number of people who might find TSR Medicine.

There are a myriad of complex reasons that bring people to stay active in this community - that I don't fully understand. The existence of an offer holder thread seems to be one of them, so I'm glad we didn't decide to remove them. TSR has previously shared evidence that user-generated content (ie people making their own offer holder threads) does tend to go better than content that's been created in a uniform manner with no deviation. So again, this decision is to try and keep people with the site.

I'll be completely transparent (because we all want transparency), I've found it quite concerning that TSR as a business is being criticised for disregarding mental health and wellbeing, over a decision that was made by a collection of unis volunteers partly motivated by a need to preserve our own mental health and wellbeing. This isn't about not having enough time, this is about the expectations being placed on us to do things users can freely do themselves.

On a personal level I would appreciate it if we all remembered there's a human being on the other end of the screen here, be they staff, volunteer or members of the community

MR

Just on this, it has been explained above that any user is more than welcome to create an offer holder thread. The volunteers will sort out the index and make sure threads are titled properly. There has never been an expectation anywhere on TSR that volunteers or paid staff should create threads on the site on behalf of users who could create them themselves. I don't think it's realistic to be so critical of a decision which is essentially "happy for users to make them but we won't be making them for you". Offer holder threads have not been abolished, this is a decision volunteers have taken, not staff

On social media being a competitior for TSR: yes it is, and this has been known for years. The reality TSR doesn't have the capacity for transforming itself into a rival for WhatsApp, discord, Instagram, or any of these other multinationals that the youth nowadays are all following. Maybe with some different decisions in 2008-2013 they could have been, but we're well past that now.

I can only speak for myself, but I do this for nothing because I want to help as many people as possible. This decision was made to (hopefully) widen the number of people who might find TSR Medicine.

There are a myriad of complex reasons that bring people to stay active in this community - that I don't fully understand. The existence of an offer holder thread seems to be one of them, so I'm glad we didn't decide to remove them. TSR has previously shared evidence that user-generated content (ie people making their own offer holder threads) does tend to go better than content that's been created in a uniform manner with no deviation. So again, this decision is to try and keep people with the site.

I'll be completely transparent (because we all want transparency), I've found it quite concerning that TSR as a business is being criticised for disregarding mental health and wellbeing, over a decision that was made by a collection of unis volunteers partly motivated by a need to preserve our own mental health and wellbeing. This isn't about not having enough time, this is about the expectations being placed on us to do things users can freely do themselves.

On a personal level I would appreciate it if we all remembered there's a human being on the other end of the screen here, be they staff, volunteer or members of the community

MR

Yet individual uni threads were created for each med school "officially"? Why are these not being left for people to create their own?
I guess this is what people find confusing, they are directed to the "official" thread for applicants but then thrown into the abyss of "make your own" for offer holders. I can see why this is confusing for them. I am just pointing out how it seems to users.
Has it been decided recently that decisions made by volunteers will override those made by staff, then? Cos I can think of a few times we have been told this was the other way round

You're completely correct there's been a change. 2023 applicant threads were already well underway by ecolier and becausethenight, their departure led to a large pause in this and by the time myself and others got to this it was simply a case of getting them up as quickly as possible: which I did over the course of about 3 days. At that time there was little merit in spending time discussing how something should be done when it was already half completed.

How 2024 applicant threads work has yet to be discussed.

I am very confused by the comments about one decision overriding another. Can you point me towards any staff decision about the presence of offer holder threads in the Medicine forum? All staff decisions override volunteer ones. Nothing in this thread is at odds with this principle from what I can see. The point I made above is that the response to this decision has been an immediate criticism of TSR as a business - whose staff have not made this decision.

I also do this, for nothing, to increase enlightenment around med school admissions, but I am not sure how what is being suggested widens the number of people finding TSR medicine? People who have never used TSR, but are searching for an offer holder group would find one entitled appropriately via Google, those looking for application guidance will already be here and migrate to the thread.

I would be interested in any evidence that multiple personally created offer holder threads are better used/accepted than one created and moderated to be uniform across the site? I am all for evidence-based practice. As a user, I can certainly say the experience is worse this year than in recent years in terms of ease of use and engagement.

If it is too stressful for the volunteers (and I had heard there is only one purple volunteer in medicine now, not sure if this is the case), then surely paid staff could do this as part of their role, with no effect on anybody's wellbeing? I would advise anybody who finds their mental health adversely affected by the expectations placed on them in a volunteer role to be considering how appropriate it is that they remain - mental and physical wellbeing is paramount

I am merely saying the staff could chose to put up the offer holders threads, if that was their wish, to avoid stress for the volunteers. But maybe they have had no oversight of this decision, so are not aware? In which case, given the feelings from users are that it would be useful, this could be passed up to them?
If they know about the decision and agree with it, as you say, they are taking that final decision, so it is right that if people disagree, that dissent should be aimed at them. If they are not aware, it suggests they have not read the thread you have tagged them into

I am not an expert in Search Engine Optimisation, but those who are have advised us that what I've written above is the case. I am also unsure about whether there has arose some confusion - duplicate offer holder threads will be closed - so "multiple personally created offer holder threads" will not be the case here.

If I'm being honest I have found the "If it is too stressful for the volunteers" comment quite jarring. At no point have I mentioned stress. At every point I have mentioned expectations. What is expected of volunteers needs to change. We spent a long time last year talking about how volunteers have been treated - by the community staff and by the community users. I don't want any of my team members feeling they have to create a thread because a user has asked them to, given that creating a thread is something every user is able to do. I am aware that a culture where users can post their own threads is still a new thing for the Medicine community - this transition is still ongoing as we move through the application cycle and there may be changes further down the line as we see what does and doesn't work. For (I believe?) the first time we are engaging directly with users in the community and asking for thoughts before making a decision. If you'd have said "we don't want offer holder threads", they'd have been abolished. Instead the feedback we got was that offer holder threads are important, so we have kept them and everyone is welcome to make some and we will do the other admin. My focus as unis VSL over the coming months is on further recruitment of Forum Helpers and on recruitment of Volunteers from the FH team - that includes for the Medicine forum. The more we can work together, the easier this is for everyone as we figure out how best to move forward.