how could anyone be pro-israel?

So you concede that citizens are being punished but you just find it acceptable?

Their enemy lives in the area. Uses same fuel as anyone else to fight them. Why would they continue to send fuel?

That's basically paying the other guy to fight you.

Dictatorships don't survive without at the very least ambivelance if not popular support.

We can debate whether those in Gaza are justified in their hostility to Israel but we need to stop imagining those in Gaza as innocents in their entirety. They are as innocent as the German population post-WW2.

- With that being said, Israel has no real other choice. They must degrade all potential logistical support that Hamas may have which requires bombing a wide range of targets.

- On a side note, the recent threads on the conflict have demonstrated that a lot of the UK population really may be a little naive with regards to the reality of war. A first world problem i guess.

My father - English - Saudi parents is Intelligence/ British army.

He says the worlds TV and online news journalists are being totally manipulated by Israel and by Hamas / Palestine too

- and the public have nothing else to go on - There is no independent impartial news

Dictatorships don't survive without at the very least ambivelance if not popular support.

We can debate whether those in Gaza are justified in their hostility to Israel but we need to stop imagining those in Gaza as innocents in their entirety. They are as innocent as the German population post-WW2.

- With that being said, Israel has no real other choice. They must degrade all potential logistical support that Hamas may have which requires bombing a wide range of targets.

- On a side note, the recent threads on the conflict have demonstrated that a lot of the UK population really may be a little naive with regards to the reality of war. A first world problem i guess.

Your argument makes no sense. I have no idea where you live but I assume it is in the UK. By your logic it would be reasonable for me to raise the UK to the ground if my actions were to remove you.

The folly of Israel is that Hammas are safely tucked up in the tunnels. Israel know this yet they continue to bomb innocent civilians. You can not remove a terrorist organisation through conventional war. Nor in my view can you justify the bombing of innocent civilians in that pursuit. In my mind, the current campaign is pure vindictiveness. I would suit Israel very nicely for Gaza to cease to exist and become part of Israel and if no one lived there because there was no one to live...

(Original post by Admit-One)
So you concede that citizens are being punished but you just find it acceptable?

Because collective punishment is a war crime...

How would I concede that someone is being punished if I am talking about preventing an enemy from being able to attack?

Thats not punishment. Thats just being smart.

Would you give bullets to someone who you knew will shoot you? Give fuel to someone who has already bombed your house?

Do I concede? No. @Admit-One

What argument? Im asking you if Hammas is punishing Israel based on your logic that Israel must be punishing innocent citizens because of israel's bombing locations.
Thats a question.

Otherwise how do we know where Hammas is tucked away in if they are launching missles and other attacks from the city?
Hammas is well known to hide themselves and their equipment in schools, hospitals, etc.

The citizens were asked to leave. How is Israel to know 100% who is where? Let's see evidence, without a doubt, we know "citizens" are alive in a given location prior to an attack. Like how we know that innocent citizens were alive in the exact areas Hammas attacked to start the war.

Cause we are getting this information from Hammas controlled areas. After a bombing has occured. Why should we 100% trust it?

I agee. Cant take out terrorist group with conventional war. But hammas has been recognized as a legitamite organization who can participate in elections and control gaza/palistine. That's a different.

Although I hate war, I am trying to look at this logically to understand Israel position. They are not simply going again another terrorist group in the mountains. They are against a group that operates like ISIL/ISIS. SO i disagree that Hammas is in the mountains or caves or what ever.

How would we come by this info anyways?

It's really simple. If you were in power, where would you stay? Would you stay on the top floor of a block of flats with your flag flying from the roof, or would you hide in the network of tunnels that stretch throughout the region?

Last question. Given the history of the region over the last 80 years, why do you think Hamas and Palestinians bare a grudge against Israel?

I can see why Hamas and Palestinians bear a grudge. It doesn’t change my view on how disgusting and horrifying the terrorism was.

Agreed. Now matched by an equal if not worse horror inflicted by Israel. Yet we excuse Israel. Israel can do no evil in the eyes of the like of you and our political leaders. I do not understand why other than there are serious Jewish influences in the powers of the West who force us to turn a blind eye.

Rubbish answer.

You keep conflating an enemy with a civilian population. Fuel is not bullets. Water is not bullets. Working hospitals are not bullets.

Do you find civilian losses to be acceptable collateral damage?

It's really simple. If you were in power, where would you stay? Would you stay on the top floor of a block of flats with your flag flying from the roof, or would you hide in the network of tunnels that stretch throughout the region?

Last question. Given the history of the region over the last 80 years, why do you think Hamas and Palestinians bare a grudge against Israel?

I dont care about any grudges. Hate whom ever you want to hate. But if you look at post #17 (I added @hotpud to the post) I added an argument from another site. In which the poster included a section from Hammas documents. These documents stated that Israel doesnt just need to cease to exist (as in the country) but all jews should die.

With respect, I think you are missing the issue. Gaza is one of the most repressed places on earth. The people who live there are not free to go about their business like you and I. There are no ports despite it being on the sea because Israel will not permit access by sea. Nor is there an airport or there was one once but this was destroyed by Israel. And the whole territory is surrounded by a fence forcing those who live in Gaza to be limited to a small strip of land. Inside Gaza there is limited water, food and fuel, limited healthcare and few prospects. The people who live there are effectively caged animals.

And you wonder why they behave like animals? To an extent, Israel get what they deserve. If you treat your neighbours badly you should not be surprised if they treat you equally badly. We are no at a stage of the conflict where Israel have killed vastly more Palestinians than Israelis were killed. If those in power in Israel believe in an eye for an eye, they have taken a leg and an ear.

Israel hold all the power. They have control of the land, the sea and the air. They could sort this whole mess out in an instance by accepting Palestine as a state, giving the people of Gaza an identity and making life liveable for them. And in one moment they would take away any military cause or objective from the likes of Hamas. You can't want the end of someone who gives you good things. Its not going to happen, but nor is this sorry mess until Israel makes a concession. And they have to make a concession because they hold all the cards. Hamas and the Gazan's have nothing to lose. They have nothing to start with. They have no freedom and no hope and when your opposition is in that state you had better be in for something pretty grim.

If Israel has so much control of the sea the land ect as you say... how did iran manage to smuggle weapons to hamas.

What does this have to do with my post?
Where is proof that any punishment is occuring?