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Original post by Adrija Zaman
no problem :smile:
there are past papers available and because engineering is a popular subject, there will be many extra resources available to revise. for my admissions test (humanities, but similar principle) youtube was helpful bc there was a range of examples there
i'd also relook ur A level choices - if you want study engineering, especially at oxford, they will not look favourably on english lit, especially if you had the option to do computing/further maths instead. allow ur A Levels to broaden ur knowledge and interest
u can check the oxford website and go on undergrad courses to check admission requirements

The OP is doing four A levels. He or she won't be disadvantaged by taking English Literature. On the contrary, it's a life enhancing subject, and reading great writers helps to improve a person's writing skills. Good writing skills are important for lawyers.
Original post by Muttley79
Why not do a Law degree then? Someone else could then have an Engineering place ...

The OP is choosing his or her own educational path. The OP can't be responsible for any other student's educational path.

A law degree is not a pre-requisite for being a lawyer, and there are good arguments for studying a subject other than law in which you have an interest, even if planning to be a lawyer. The opportunity to spend three or four years studying in depth a thing which interests you may be worth taking for its own sake, regardless of career plans and career outcome.

Lawyers who practise in Hard IP (patents and trademarks) quite often have science degrees. A degree in engineering could provide an excellent foundation for a legal practice working in private practice or in-house for technology businesses.

OP, your grade 6 in Further Maths is something that you will have to counterweight by good predicted or actual grades, a strong personal statement, a good reference, and a good performance in any relevant aptitude test, and then you will have to ace the interviews if you are shortlisted. If there are any special circumstances which explain why you did not excel in your Further Maths papers, it would be a good idea for your teacher to explain those in the reference.

OP, you may or may not be familiar the late LJK Setright, a motoring writer with a distinctive prose style and an erudite persona. He read law at UCL, but did not practise law, as he was more interested in engineering. He went on to write, amongst many other books and articles, a technical monograph on the 1950s Formula One car which is well regarded by engineering historians, the definitive history of Bristol Cars, several books on motorbikes, and "Drive On", a social history of the automobile. Your proposed path from engineering student to lawyer put me in mind of Setright's path from law student to expert commentator on engineering.

Good luck!
Original post by Stiffy Byng
The OP is choosing his or her own educational path. The OP can't be responsible for any other student's educational path.
A law degree is not a pre-requisite for being a lawyer, and there are good arguments for studying a subject other than law in which you have an interest, even if planning to be a lawyer. The opportunity to spend three or four years studying in depth a thing which interests you may be worth taking for its own sake, regardless of career plans and career outcome.
Lawyers who practise in Hard IP (patents and trademarks) quite often have science degrees. A degree in engineering could provide an excellent foundation for a legal practice working in private practice or in-house for technology businesses.
OP, your grade 6 in Further Maths is something that you will have to counterweight by good predicted or actual grades, a strong personal statement, a good reference, and a good performance in any relevant aptitude test, and then you will have to ace the interviews if you are shortlisted. If there are any special circumstances which explain why you did not excel in your Further Maths papers, it would be a good idea for your teacher to explain those in the reference.
OP, you may or may not be familiar the late LJK Setright, a motoring writer with a distinctive prose style and an erudite persona. He read law at UCL, but did not practise law, as he was more interested in engineering. He went on to write, amongst many other books and articles, a technical monograph on the 1950s Formula One car which is well regarded by engineering historians, the definitive history of Bristol Cars, several books on motorbikes, and "Drive On", a social history of the automobile. Your proposed path from engineering student to lawyer put me in mind of Setright's path from law student to expert commentator on engineering.
Good luck!

Yes I know you can do any degree - I have several ex-students that have done STEM degrees.

It's just a waste of an Oxbridge place don't you think? Engineering is better elsewhere anyway ...
No, I don't think that the OP would be wasting an Oxbridge place. The way to waste an Oxbridge place is either to go to Oxford or Cambridge, do no work, and get chucked out, or to go and do only work, and not have fun doing some of the other things that a person can do at university.

I don't think that it is ever a waste of a person's time to study a subject which he or she is interested in, whatever he or she wants to do after university. Nor do I think that the OP has any sort of obligation to society at large not to study engineering unless he or she wishes to be an engineer.

The OP has an interest in Oxford, and no doubt will also look at other universities which offer engineering degrees. I suggest that an informed decision about where to apply would factor in many things, and not just how a course is perceived by whichever of the various systems of ranking or evaluation we can all look at. For example, I don't lose any sleep over the possibility that some may think that my degree in Modern History from Oxford isn't as good as one from Cambridge, or Harvard, or wherever.

Moreover, if there were anything in your apparent concern that the OP would be doing something amiss by seeking to obtain a place that could go to a wannabe engineer, but s/he's going to ignore your advice and do it anyway, perhaps you can take consolation in that s/he might do so at a university which you aren't super keen on anyway.
Original post by Stiffy Byng
No, I don't think that the OP would be wasting an Oxbridge place. The way to waste an Oxbridge place is either to go to Oxford or Cambridge, do no work, and get chucked out, or to go and do only work, and not have fun doing some of the other things that a person can do at university.
I don't think that it is ever a waste of a person's time to study a subject which he or she is interested in, whatever he or she wants to do after university. Nor do I think that the OP has any sort of obligation to society at large not to study engineering unless he or she wishes to be an engineer.
The OP has an interest in Oxford, and no doubt will also look at other universities which offer engineering degrees. I suggest that an informed decision about where to apply would factor in many things, and not just how a course is perceived by whichever of the various systems of ranking or evaluation we can all look at. For example, I don't lose any sleep over the possibility that some may think that my degree in Modern History from Oxford isn't as good as one from Cambridge, or Harvard, or wherever.
Moreover, if there were anything in your apparent concern that the OP would be doing something amiss by seeking to obtain a place that could go to a wannabe engineer, but s/he's going to ignore your advice and do it anyway, perhaps you can take consolation in that s/he might do so at a university which you aren't super keen on anyway.

@Muttley79 has students who do a "Year in Industry" which is not available at either Oxford or Cambridge universities.
The OP has stated that he is not planning to work as an engineer.
Original post by Stiffy Byng
No, I don't think that the OP would be wasting an Oxbridge place. The way to waste an Oxbridge place is either to go to Oxford or Cambridge, do no work, and get chucked out, or to go and do only work, and not have fun doing some of the other things that a person can do at university.
I don't think that it is ever a waste of a person's time to study a subject which he or she is interested in, whatever he or she wants to do after university. Nor do I think that the OP has any sort of obligation to society at large not to study engineering unless he or she wishes to be an engineer.
The OP has an interest in Oxford, and no doubt will also look at other universities which offer engineering degrees. I suggest that an informed decision about where to apply would factor in many things, and not just how a course is perceived by whichever of the various systems of ranking or evaluation we can all look at. For example, I don't lose any sleep over the possibility that some may think that my degree in Modern History from Oxford isn't as good as one from Cambridge, or Harvard, or wherever.
Moreover, if there were anything in your apparent concern that the OP would be doing something amiss by seeking to obtain a place that could go to a wannabe engineer, but s/he's going to ignore your advice and do it anyway, perhaps you can take consolation in that s/he might do so at a university which you aren't super keen on anyway.

Is this reply aimed at me?
No, I'm not keen on Oxbridge for Engineering, there are better choices that will prepare you for working as an Engineer. However, if a student wants to apply I don't try to change their mind and support them with all entrance tests in my own time. My students do get into Oxbridge every year - mainly for Mathematics but other subjects too.

I don't know where you get the view that I don't like Oxford - i did my PGCE there! Please stop repeating falsehoods.
The OP has stated that he does not wish to work as an engineer. The OP's plan to study engineering before training as a lawyer appears to me a sensible plan. He has identified an educational path that may assist him in developing a legal practice with a client base in the technology/design/manufacturing sectors, whether as a litigator or as a transactional lawyer, and whether as a solicitor, a barrister, or a Patent Attorney.

Whether the OP can make a strong enough pitch to obtain an offer from Oxford depends, of course, on all the usual Oxford admission factors, and the OP will need to pitch himself well enough to overcome reservations which tutors might have about a grade 6 in Further Maths.
Original post by Anonymous
Hey,
I took 11 GCSE's - Physics (9), Biology(9), PE (9), English Literature(9), Maths (8), Chemistry (8), Drama (8), Latin (7), English Language (7), Further Maths (6), History (6)
I am taking History, English Literature, Physics and Maths for A-level. I really want to apply for Engineering at Oxford. I was wondering if this will effect my application. I am very conscious of the two 6s.

I mean your cores look solid so I don't think you will have any trouble but I am really not sure.
Original post by Anonymous
Hey,
I took 11 GCSE's - Physics (9), Biology(9), PE (9), English Literature(9), Maths (8), Chemistry (8), Drama (8), Latin (7), English Language (7), Further Maths (6), History (6)
I am taking History, English Literature, Physics and Maths for A-level. I really want to apply for Engineering at Oxford. I was wondering if this will effect my application. I am very conscious of the two 6s.

Hi, although I’m not applying to Oxford nor am I applying for engineering, I might say something about your question.
GCSEs do matter to a degree, but your Alevels are more important. I’m sure Oxford uses a system to convert different components of your application into a score with different weighing, you could look it up. That means when you’re faced with an applicant who has performed roughly the same in other parts of the application then you might be less advantageous. But that can be compensated with other parts of your application and you already have really good grades for subjects that matter for your degree, ie physics and maths.
As already mentioned in the comments, further maths at a level would really boost your competitiveness, but I feel like it might be too late for you to add another subject if you’re applying this year. You could maybe look at tests like STEP that assess really advanced mathematical skills and prepare to achieve a good score on it.
On the other hand, if you don’t have particular universities you want to apply for engineering, you could maybe apply to both law and engineering degrees if you feel like a stronger applicant for law overall. I’d assume you could do engineering and law in whichever order… But it is really risky to apply to two such different subjects, so maybe only consider if you could put together a PS that could perfectly address your career path, as you have described in the comments, combining law and engineering, and abilities.
Again, I don’t really know about either degrees or their requirements, I’m applying to a very different course with a very different subject combo, so i might be wrong about some things, but hope this helps.
Original post by Stiffy Byng
The OP has stated that he does not wish to work as an engineer. The OP's plan to study engineering before training as a lawyer appears to me a sensible plan. He has identified an educational path that may assist him in developing a legal practice with a client base in the technology/design/manufacturing sectors, whether as a litigator or as a transactional lawyer, and whether as a solicitor, a barrister, or a Patent Attorney.
Whether the OP can make a strong enough pitch to obtain an offer from Oxford depends, of course, on all the usual Oxford admission factors, and the OP will need to pitch himself well enough to overcome reservations which tutors might have about a grade 6 in Further Maths.

I disagree - better knowledge of Engineering elsewhere - he'll know very little about cars. Brookes would be better for that and he's still in Oxford!
Original post by Muttley79
I disagree - better knowledge of Engineering elsewhere - he'll know very little about cars. Brookes would be better for that and he's still in Oxford!

You appear again to overlook that the OP is not seeking to practise as an engineer, whether in the automotive sector or otherwise.

The OP proposes to study engineering and then practise law. This is a sensible proposal. In the commercial legal world, a degree in any subject from Oxford is usually more valuable than a degree in any subject from Brookes. Even when commercial law firms and barristers' chambers recruit university-blind, as some now do, candidates with degrees from a small group of well known universities tend to obtain many or most of the positions. The Oxford teaching system is good at producing graduates who can meet the demands of high end legal practice, regardless of the subject studied.

A general background in engineering may assist the OP as a lawyer working for industrial clients. OP, you won't be the only lawyer thus qualified, and good lawyers will understand a lot about their client's busineses even without a relevant technical education, but your idea is still a good one.

As for cars (generators of a huge amount of legal work), the OP might or might not be interested in the car industry as a client base, and he or she might or might not know about cars already, or learn about cars in the future
I don't see education as a series of binaries, or something in which the only way to learn thing X is to study it at place Y. In any event, the OP isn't planning to design or make cars. He or she might end up giving legal advice to people who make cars, or kettles, or spaceships, or sewing machines

The OP hasn't asked "Which university has the best engineering course?" The OP has asked if he or she might have a realistic shot at Oxford, with a view to a postgraduate legal career. On the information supplied, the OP might at least have a chance.

There are besides good reasons to study at Oxford which have nothing to do with what career a person follows thereafter. The reduction of the university experience to an elongated job application process would be a sad thing.

OP, you will I am sure be aware that most people who seek a place at Oxford don't obtain one, but there's no harm trying, if you are on target for a good outcome in your sixth form studies. Good luck!
Original post by Stiffy Byng
You appear again to overlook that the OP is not seeking to practise as an engineer, whether in the automotive sector or otherwise.
The OP proposes to study engineering and then practise law. This is a sensible proposal. In the commercial legal world, a degree in any subject from Oxford is usually more valuable than a degree in any subject from Brookes. Even when commercial law firms and barristers' chambers recruit university-blind, as some now do, candidates with degrees from a small group of well known universities tend to obtain many or most of the positions. The Oxford teaching system is good at producing graduates who can meet the demands of high end legal practice, regardless of the subject studied.
A general background in engineering may assist the OP as a lawyer working for industrial clients. OP, you won't be the only lawyer thus qualified, and good lawyers will understand a lot about their client's busineses even without a relevant technical education, but your idea is still a good one.
As for cars (generators of a huge amount of legal work), the OP might or might not be interested in the car industry as a client base, and he or she might or might not know about cars already, or learn about cars in the future
I don't see education as a series of binaries, or something in which the only way to learn thing X is to study it at place Y. In any event, the OP isn't planning to design or make cars. He or she might end up giving legal advice to people who make cars, or kettles, or spaceships, or sewing machines
The OP hasn't asked "Which university has the best engineering course?" The OP has asked if he or she might have a realistic shot at Oxford, with a view to a postgraduate legal career. On the information supplied, the OP might at least have a chance.
There are besides good reasons to study at Oxford which have nothing to do with what career a person follows thereafter. The reduction of the university experience to an elongated job application process would be a sad thing.
OP, you will I am sure be aware that most people who seek a place at Oxford don't obtain one, but there's no harm trying, if you are on target for a good outcome in your sixth form studies. Good luck!

You totally misunderstand my point!!!!

You stated that an Engineer would have a huge benefit in law as they could understand the automotive industry etc. That is precisely what the OP will not get at Oxford. Their degree is totally theoretical and so they'll be clueless about the industry itself.

I've taught thousands - some are Barristers in top London firms so I do know what I am talking about. Some did Law degrees and some did not -
(edited 1 week ago)
Original post by Anonymous
Hey,
I took 11 GCSE's - Physics (9), Biology(9), PE (9), English Literature(9), Maths (8), Chemistry (8), Drama (8), Latin (7), English Language (7), Further Maths (6), History (6)
I am taking History, English Literature, Physics and Maths for A-level. I really want to apply for Engineering at Oxford. I was wondering if this will effect my application. I am very conscious of the two 6s.

The grade 6 for Further Maths is a big problem. How is the PAT test prep going?
Please do not misrepresent what I say. All that I have said is that studying engineering may be of use to the OP as a lawyer.

Your claim to "know what you are talking about" is not persuasive. You appear to have no personal experience of commercial legal practice (a field in which I have worked since the 1980s). You queried above whether there would be many cases about cars. Legal work about cars is voluminous, as anyone familiar with commercial legal practice would know. I add that practising barristers do not work in firms, they group together in sets of chambers, which are not firms. Some barristers take jobs in law firms, but by doing so they in effect become solicitors, whether or not they retain their membership of the Bar.

In any event, the automotive sector is just one example amongst several of an industrial sector in which a background in general engineering might be of use to a practising lawyer.

Your position on this thread appears odd. You have gone from telling the OP that he should study law, to chiding the OP for proposing to take an engineering place, to suggesting that the OP would be better going to Brookes (a suggestion which is not helpful in the context of someone seeking a commercial legal practice, who will be competing for entry level positions against graduates of Oxford, Cambridge, and other high ranking universities).

On a general point, I invite you to reflect that this forum is for the assistance of people thinking about their education and careers. It is not about winning points, or proving that you are an expert on everything. No doubt you are an able maths teacher and helpful to those you teach. It is possible, however, that others may possess knowledge and experience which you do not possess.

OP, you can judge for yourself which (if any) of the comments on your thread are helpful.
Original post by Stiffy Byng
Please do not misrepresent what I say. All that I have said is that studying engineering may be of use to the OP as a lawyer.
Your claim to "know what you are talking about" is not persuasive. You appear to have no personal experience of commercial legal practice (a field in which I have worked since the 1980s). You queried above whether there would be many cases about cars. Legal work about cars is voluminous, as anyone familiar with commercial legal practice would know. I add that practising barristers do not work in firms, they group together in sets of chambers, which are not firms. Some barristers take jobs in law firms, but by doing so they in effect become solicitors, whether or not they retain their membership of the Bar.
In any event, the automotive sector is just one example amongst several of an industrial sector in which a background in general engineering might be of use to a practising lawyer.
Your position on this thread appears odd. You have gone from telling the OP that he should study law, to chiding the OP for proposing to take an engineering place, to suggesting that the OP would be better going to Brookes (a suggestion which is not helpful in the context of someone seeking a commercial legal practice, who will be competing for entry level positions against graduates of Oxford, Cambridge, and other high ranking universities).
On a general point, I invite you to reflect that this forum is for the assistance of people thinking about their education and careers. It is not about winning points, or proving that you are an expert on everything. No doubt you are an able maths teacher and helpful to those you teach. It is possible, however, that others may possess knowledge and experience which you do not possess.
OP, you can judge for yourself which (if any) of the comments on your thread are helpful.

Yes but you are not giving good advice. Where did I say they should study Law at Brookes? No, I didn't and tbh I could say the same thing about your posts as you do about mine.

I have supported thousands of students to gain entry to many universities and to Oxbridge regularly. The grade 6 for FMaths is a big issue and a red flag to me - hence why I asked about PAT.



To gain useful knowledge about the Engineering industry Brookes would be far better or Bath or Loughborough then study Law conversion somewhere better for that particular career route.
Original post by Muttley79
Yes but you are not giving good advice. Where did I say they should study Law at Brookes? No, I didn't and tbh I could say the same thing about your posts as you do about mine.
I have supported thousands of students to gain entry to many universities and to Oxbridge regularly. The grade 6 for FMaths is a big issue and a red flag to me - hence why I asked about PAT.
To gain useful knowledge about the Engineering industry Brookes would be far better or Bath or Loughborough then study Law conversion somewhere better for that particular career route.

I did not suggest that you suggested that the OP study law at Brookes. I commented on your unhelpful suggestion that a person seeking a career in commercial law should study engineering at Brookes, and on the twists and turns in your comments on this thread.

I am giving practical advice based on relevant knowledge and experience. You are expressing opinions about commercial legal work, a subject about which you know little or nothing, as you have demonstrated by your comments about the subject in this thread. Uninformed advice is worthless advice.

The OP wishes to study at Oxford, possibly for the several good reasons why people wish to do that. Your personal opinions as a maths teacher as to which universities are "best" for engineering appear to be of little relevance to this thread. The OP did not ask if Oxford, or Bath, or any university, is good for engineering. He or she asked if he or she might have a shot at Oxford. The answer to that is: maybe, depending on how persuasive his or her application is overall, taking account of a 6 in Further Maths.


Good luck to the OP, whatever he or she decides to do.
(edited 1 week ago)
Original post by Stiffy Byng
I did not suggest that you suggested that the OP study law at Brookes. I commented on your unhelpful suggestion that a person seeking a career in commercial law should study engineering at Brookes, and on the twists and turns in your comments on this thread.
I am giving practical advice based on relevant knowledge and experience. You are expressing opinions about commercial legal work, a subject about which you know little or nothing, as you have demonstrated by your comments about the subject in this thread. Uninformed advice is worthless advice.
The OP wishes to study at Oxford, possibly for the several good reasons why people wish to do that. Your personal opinions as a maths teacher as to which universities are "best" for engineering appear to be of little relevance to this thread. The OP did not ask if Oxford, or Bath, or any university, is good for engineering. He or she asked if he or she might have a shot at Oxford. The answer to that is: maybe, depending on how persuasive his or her application is overall, taking account of a 6 in Further Maths.
Good luck to the OP, whatever he or she decides to do.

You assume far too much about me and what I know - you'd be surprised who I count among my close associates and former students.

A first degree at Brookes will do no damage at all - even to getting into a highly ranked chambers.
Original post by Muttley79
You assume far too much about me and what I know - you'd be surprised who I count among my close associates and former students.
A first degree at Brookes will do no damage at all - even to getting into a highly ranked chambers.

Then why are the Chambers dominated by graduates of Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, UCL, KCL, SOAS, QMUL, Durham, Nottingham and Bristol? 😧
(edited 1 week ago)
Original post by thegeek888
Then why are the Chambers dominated by graduates of Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, UCL, KCL, SOAS, QMUL, Durham, Nottingham and Bristol? 😧

Dominated but not exclusively! Things are starting to change I'm told by people in several top chambers.

Who is point scoring now? Stop taking the thread off topic!

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