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The EU. Good or bad?
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L i b
Don't 
tell me to 'read' something and then post things which are completely and utterly irrelevant to an assertion I've made which you've obviously failed completely to understand, then hold it up as some sort of logical victory.
tell me to 'read' something and then post things which are completely and utterly irrelevant to an assertion I've made which you've obviously failed completely to understand, then hold it up as some sort of logical victory.Calm down, don't get too excited. You gave me a link to a EU poll. I looked at the poll, and posted some results for it, which showed that there is very little support for it in Britain. This thread is about whether the EU is good from Britain, and whether we should pull out. Therefore my post is completely relevant.
I think you should learn to accept other people's views, rather than call others ignorant and completely ignore the other side of the discussion.
mattbroon
But it has taken alot of our money and given us excessive restriction, far too many decisions and regultaions are made in Europe which cannot be held accountable, and not in Britain where actions can be held accountable.
An example of excessive regulation, is that EU law prohibits Britain from having VAT below 15%!!!!! That is a ridiculous rule to have, and should not be within EU powers to decide.
Another huge problem with the EU is their immigration enforcement and job control. In the UK if a doctor from India applies for a job, and a doctor from the EU applies for a job, the EU doctor must be employed even if the Indian doctor is better qualified!!! As well as this, we are not allowed stop the migration of citizens from EU countries into our own! We have effectively lost control of our borders!
I have the example of Switzerland to show how successful a country can be without the EU.
Overall the EU has become far too powerful, and is gaining more power every day. We must ensure that laws are made by the British Parliament and not the EU. Nedless to say the TSR tories have no stance on Europe.
An example of excessive regulation, is that EU law prohibits Britain from having VAT below 15%!!!!! That is a ridiculous rule to have, and should not be within EU powers to decide.
Another huge problem with the EU is their immigration enforcement and job control. In the UK if a doctor from India applies for a job, and a doctor from the EU applies for a job, the EU doctor must be employed even if the Indian doctor is better qualified!!! As well as this, we are not allowed stop the migration of citizens from EU countries into our own! We have effectively lost control of our borders!
I have the example of Switzerland to show how successful a country can be without the EU.
Overall the EU has become far too powerful, and is gaining more power every day. We must ensure that laws are made by the British Parliament and not the EU. Nedless to say the TSR tories have no stance on Europe.
Money doesnt exist. rubbish. money is a simple illusion made up by the sysem and it has nothing to do with the EU. the world banking system is going down (it was inevitable) and that is what seems to take your (imaginary) money, its not the EU.
PeterMcPete
No it's not. You quoted a section of my text, which was about an unrelated issue. My point stands as correct.
L i b
No it's not. You quoted a section of my text, which was about an unrelated issue. My point stands as correct.
As does mine. Most British people do not want Britain to be part of the EU. Therefore we should withdraw. That is what this thread is about.
End of.
If you want Britain to withdraw from teh EU then send your support for the formation of TSR UKIP to daniel_williams.
gamer91
no, although it would be an extreme position to argue objective one a poor use of funds.
I don't think it's at all an unusual position to think that the funds should not be levied and that this sort of thing should be left to free enterprise. In the first place because it's a rather spurious notion that everywhere ought to be at the same level of development anyway, but secondly because there is an enormous amount of evidence that this sort of thing rarely makes much difference anyway, despite significant expense.
L i b
The ultimate non sequitur.
Anyway, you answered a complete different point of mine with irrelevances.
Anyway, you answered a complete different point of mine with irrelevances.
Not that I disagree with you on the principle, but I do wonder where you think the EU's own legitimacy comes from if you rule out democratic consent.
Send support for the formation of UKIP to daniel_williams for the good of democracy.
Currently there is only 1 right of centre party and they are not making right wing decisions. WE NEED YOR SUPPORT NOW.
Send your support to daniel_williams
Currently there is only 1 right of centre party and they are not making right wing decisions. WE NEED YOR SUPPORT NOW.
Send your support to daniel_williams
The EU has definetly supported the British economy. The British economy is very highly dependant on immigration at the moment and the EU has provided plenty of people to occupy the labour jobs which most people in Britain are over qualified to do.
But when they try to impose policies which are likely to harm the country such as gigantic emission targets and waste removal targets it just doesn't seem worth being part of the EU.
If anything the EU needs Britain more then Brtain needs the EU. Lets face it... we "own" the polish economy. If Britain was to leave the EU it would really harm the eastern European countries.
The main problem I think is the fact that the British economy won't be able to compete with newly developing countries.
From a personal prospective i'm against it but without the EU the country cannot sustain its large economy especially in this century where globalization is the key to success. The postives from being part of the EU strongly outweigh the negatives.
But when they try to impose policies which are likely to harm the country such as gigantic emission targets and waste removal targets it just doesn't seem worth being part of the EU.
If anything the EU needs Britain more then Brtain needs the EU. Lets face it... we "own" the polish economy. If Britain was to leave the EU it would really harm the eastern European countries.
The main problem I think is the fact that the British economy won't be able to compete with newly developing countries.
From a personal prospective i'm against it but without the EU the country cannot sustain its large economy especially in this century where globalization is the key to success. The postives from being part of the EU strongly outweigh the negatives.
mattbroon
Send support for the formation of UKIP to daniel_williams for the good of democracy.
Currently there is only 1 right of centre party and they are not making right wing decisions. WE NEED YOR SUPPORT NOW.
Send your support to daniel_williams
Currently there is only 1 right of centre party and they are not making right wing decisions. WE NEED YOR SUPPORT NOW.
Send your support to daniel_williams
Was this the only reason you started this thread? so you can ask everyone who says they want to withdraw from the EU to join your party?
I think being a member of something and thinking about whether something is good or bad are two separate issues. You could participate in the EU to try and change it.
Britain had attempted to join the EEC twice before 1973 when some say Edward Heath had signed away our independence, both in 1963 and in 1967. Once we had joined in 1973 under Heaths government, from there on there would always be a group of society which rebelled against it – the UK independent party was established in 1993 of whom attempt to get their members elected into the EU parliament to show Britain’s resentment - voicing a specialized group of society but not all.
Soon after the UK had joined, Harold Wilson held a referendum to pull out of the EEC however, the turnout was unexpected and was in favour for remaining in the EEC. Shortly after in 1979 Thatcher cut funding for the EEC as she saw the majority of it went to waste - with a high percentage of the money being contributed towards agriculture, this implied we had a negative view on the EEC and was notorious for doing so, in hope to gain back our sovereignty.
The Maastricht’s treaty pretty much wiped out john major since the beginning of his leadership in 1992 subsequently resulting in a mass number of backbench rebellions and literally tearing their own party apart, with resignation of senior cabinet members, such as Norman Lamont the chancellor, which was one of many factors contributed towards the conservatives downfall in 1997.
So in conclusion ever since we had joined the EU there had been mixed emotions based on our membership, however with such contradictions within the country, it gave the impression that the UK was unhappy with the EU despite it having a number of merits for us:
Increase in trade
Increase in employment
Supports a stable economy...pfft
Enforces peace among its members
On the other hand it has compromised our traditional constitution in the sense of the sovereign of parliament, no longer is such great power reserved in Westminster parliament. Issues regarding trade, industry and agriculture now have to be confirmed with the EU. Devolution is real.
All in all I don’t think you can say whether the EU is a benefit for us or not, because there are a number of cons and pros which come along with our membership cancelling each other out, however in my opinion its too late to withdraw from the EU as our membership has been criticised with the union more than many times in the past and if we were to pull out now, it would more than likely leave a significant dent in the UK’s profile internationally.
Soon after the UK had joined, Harold Wilson held a referendum to pull out of the EEC however, the turnout was unexpected and was in favour for remaining in the EEC. Shortly after in 1979 Thatcher cut funding for the EEC as she saw the majority of it went to waste - with a high percentage of the money being contributed towards agriculture, this implied we had a negative view on the EEC and was notorious for doing so, in hope to gain back our sovereignty.
The Maastricht’s treaty pretty much wiped out john major since the beginning of his leadership in 1992 subsequently resulting in a mass number of backbench rebellions and literally tearing their own party apart, with resignation of senior cabinet members, such as Norman Lamont the chancellor, which was one of many factors contributed towards the conservatives downfall in 1997.
So in conclusion ever since we had joined the EU there had been mixed emotions based on our membership, however with such contradictions within the country, it gave the impression that the UK was unhappy with the EU despite it having a number of merits for us:
Increase in trade
Increase in employment
Supports a stable economy...pfft
Enforces peace among its members
On the other hand it has compromised our traditional constitution in the sense of the sovereign of parliament, no longer is such great power reserved in Westminster parliament. Issues regarding trade, industry and agriculture now have to be confirmed with the EU. Devolution is real.
All in all I don’t think you can say whether the EU is a benefit for us or not, because there are a number of cons and pros which come along with our membership cancelling each other out, however in my opinion its too late to withdraw from the EU as our membership has been criticised with the union more than many times in the past and if we were to pull out now, it would more than likely leave a significant dent in the UK’s profile internationally.
L i b
We don't elect the leaders of the UK (ie, the head of state, or head of government) either. That does not make a polity undemocratic.
So that makes the EU OK where other European politicians and bureaucrats dictate what British policy should be regardless of what our electorate want? We do elect the ruling party from which the government is formed, and we can kick an entire party out at an election, thereby choosing a new set of policies. Unfortunately, it seems very likely that the electorate will choose a party following the same EU agreed policies the old one followed. A thinking, inquiring electorate is vital in a democracy, and I don't think we have that.
No, they will try to address their concerns. Putting something on hold simply because a bunch of people in Ireland didn't understand it is ludicrous.
I know people in Ireland who voted no and they understand exactly what is at issue. Isn't it up to the yes camp to persuade the no voters of their argument, not get shirty because they voted no? That bunch of people did form the majority of the electorate.
If they had really wanted to be democratic and yet to have referendums, it would have been a Europe-wide one, and the pro-Lisbon camp would have won massively. This isn't a matter of democracy or anything else reasonable: it's just a hurdle of obscure Irish law to overcome.
Whom do you mean by "they"? The EU itself is not and does not want to be democratic and the commission itself has said it doesn't support referendums. The EU doesn't want to be democratic.
Far easier to ratify by political consensus and damn what the people think.
T.P.D-L
Britain had attempted to join the EEC twice before 1973 when some say Edward Heath had signed away our independence, both in 1963 and in 1967. Once we had joined in 1973 under Heaths government, from there on there would always be a group of society which rebelled against it – the UK independent party was established in 1993 of whom attempt to get their members elected into the EU parliament to show Britain’s resentment - voicing a specialized group of society but not all.
Heath's Conservative government joined in the full knowledge that they would be taking us into an evolving supranational government. He deliberately deceived the public. He admitted that before he died and papers had already been released proving that anyway.
Soon after the UK had joined, Harold Wilson held a referendum to pull out of the EEC however, the turnout was unexpected and was in favour for remaining in the EEC. Shortly after in 1979 Thatcher cut funding for the EEC as she saw the majority of it went to waste - with a high percentage of the money being contributed towards agriculture, this implied we had a negative view on the EEC and was notorious for doing so, in hope to gain back our sovereignty.
Wilson did not hold that referendum in the hope of pulling out. He did everything he could to ensure that the result was a vote to stay in. The political establishment and even the CofE put their weight behind the yes campaign which massively outspent the no campaign.
The Maastricht’s treaty pretty much wiped out john major since the beginning of his leadership in 1992 subsequently resulting in a mass number of backbench rebellions and literally tearing their own party apart, with resignation of senior cabinet members, such as Norman Lamont the chancellor, which was one of many factors contributed towards the conservatives downfall in 1997.
As with previous EU treaties, the deceit continued. Did Major, for instance, have the moral right to allow every citizen of the EU to reside and work freely in the UK? He had no democratic mandate for giving up a single strand of the sovereignty he did, but the Conservatives fell mainly because they lost their reputation for economic competence after the ERM crisis.
So in conclusion ever since we had joined the EU there had been mixed emotions based on our membership, however with such contradictions within the country, it gave the impression that the UK was unhappy with the
I think the mixed emotions have been mainly between the political establishment on one side and the people on the other. It's the people of the UK who are yet to be persuaded.
EU despite it having a number of merits for us:
Increase in trade
Increase in employment
Supports a stable economy...pfft
Increase in trade
Increase in employment
Supports a stable economy...pfft
The internal market is not limited to EU member states, and as a large economy we are perfectly able to negotiate our own trade deals both with the other member states, and internationally without EU interference.
Enforces peace among its members
How much credit the EU can take for that is highly questionable.
All in all I don’t think you can say whether the EU is a benefit for us or not, because there are a number of cons and pros which come along with our membership cancelling each other out, however in my opinion its too late to withdraw from the EU as our membership has been criticised with the union more than many times in the past and if we were to pull out now, it would more than likely leave a significant dent in the UK’s profile internationally.
I can say I think the EU is not a benefit for the people of the UK when all aspects are taken into account. I don't think it's too late to leave peacefully yet. Why do you think the UK's profile would be harmed by leaving? Is it reason enough to keep us in the EU?
Wilson did not hold that referendum in the hope of pulling out. He did everything he could to ensure that the result was a vote to stay in. The political establishment and even the CofE put their weight behind the yes campaign which massively outspent the no campaign.
That’s my mistake; Heath was a strong supporter of the EEC. I must have been confused with the Labour's manifesto of 1983 when they moved sharply to the left after Heath and Callaghan were in favour of the EEC up to 1979.
but the Conservatives fell mainly because they lost their reputation for economic competence after the ERM crisis.
Although I may have not made it clear I was specifically aiming towards the ERM which was adapted by Britain in 1992 of which feature we later bailed on. That was my reason for using Lamont as my example as he resigned due to ministerial responsibility regarding the ERM.
I think the mixed emotions have been mainly between the political establishment on one side and the people on the other. It's the people of the UK who are yet to be persuaded.
Oh yes I agree, I was saying the mixed sense or directions was provoked from political parties and the executive towards the public. For example, Edward Heath and Wilson were both in favour, yet throughout conservatives leadership for 18 years it seemed as if they were unhappy with the EU, overall making the public sceptical of our membership with the union.
The internal market is not limited to EU member states, and as a large economy we are perfectly able to negotiate our own trade deals both with the other member states, and internationally without EU interference.
I didn't say it limits trade. I said it increases trade, since members of the union would generally be more reluctant to deal with another they have a relation with.
I can say I think the EU is not a benefit for the people of the UK when all aspects are taken into account. I don't think it's too late to leave peacefully yet. Why do you think the UK's profile would be harmed by leaving? Is it reason enough to keep us in the EU?
Having been in the EU for over 30 years, through a number of economically bad times and then suddenly leaving at a time of an economical downturn wouldn’t give good signs to members of the union. It would imply that they are incompetent and would give a pessimistic outlook on us; secondly with the number for jobs dependent on our membership with the EU it would be one of the worst times to leave as a great sum of jobs would vanish, although immigration would have the potential to be cut dramatically, producing many lower class job vacancies. What would be our main reason to withdraw from the union? To regain our supreme sovereignty?
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