This discussion is now closed.
Check out other Related discussions
- Becoming a pilot
- Becoming a pilot, A-Level subject choices
- How to become an airline pilot
- Are Maths, Physics and Chemistry good subjects for A-Levels?
- What option would you recommend and why?
- Pilot training fees help
- Becoming a Pilot
- Which A-levels are most suitable for aspiring pilots?
- I am a pilot working towards a commercial licence. Ask me anything!
- Question about A Level Maths and Physics
- British NASA
- Can you become a Pilot with BTEC qualifications?
- Becoming a Pilot
- Commercial Pilot Training
- Pilot
- What career should I do?
- Mature student Chem grade
- raf jobs and application
- Private Pilot License in RAF
- University
14 year old, RAF Pilot, ultimately Commercial Airline Pilot
Scroll to see replies
blue_shift86
I wanted to fly a plane too...i'm 23, can i still join the air cadets?
Yes, they are always looking for adult staff. It's well supported, well structured volunteering (and reasonably well paid!), gives plenty of transferable, professional skills and gives teenagers opportunities hard to come by elsewhere.
I'm not sure what your employer would think if you're constantly going under financially!
"Good evening ladies and Gentlemen, This is your Captain speaking. Instead of the normal donations to the Sudanese Drought Fund for this flight from London to Marseille, we would appreciate you giving any small change to the cabin crew so that the Co-Pilot can buy some new socks. Thank You"
"Good evening ladies and Gentlemen, This is your Captain speaking. Instead of the normal donations to the Sudanese Drought Fund for this flight from London to Marseille, we would appreciate you giving any small change to the cabin crew so that the Co-Pilot can buy some new socks. Thank You"
ProStacker
Your post shows a high degree of naivety. Talking about getting that far into debt and getting more debt to work as slave labour for an unknown income is sheer lunacy. Having another job? Hell - do you think a bar job will cover the difference between some £100,000 of debt and scraping by hoping to get enough hours to get into the next competitive pool?
Things could change if and when the upturn gets stronger. However, there are hundreds if not thousands of better qualified and experienced people already in the system. See how things are in a couple of years, but the airline industry will not be booming as some people hope for.
Things could change if and when the upturn gets stronger. However, there are hundreds if not thousands of better qualified and experienced people already in the system. See how things are in a couple of years, but the airline industry will not be booming as some people hope for.
who said it was £100,000+ of debt? and how are the current pilots of today not living on the streets having declared bankruptcy; with no money to show of the long and painstaking qualifications and courses they have taken? i would really love to know how they do it.
josh.edwards
who said it was £100,000+ of debt? and how are the current pilots of today not living on the streets having declared bankruptcy; with no money to show of the long and painstaking qualifications and courses they have taken? i would really love to know how they do it.
In the old days airlines would train you, but with the economy they don't now.
Those who manage it now are usually from rich families.
not only would you not even get into the RAF with that attitude....commercial flying is miles away from military flying...
and they usually have retention periods within your contracts....I think they are around 6 years and then you have to hand in the resignation 1 year in advance...so...you can, but you will be bound legally to the RAF (provided you get in) for 7 years at least if you don't take any of their bonuses or special packages
and they usually have retention periods within your contracts....I think they are around 6 years and then you have to hand in the resignation 1 year in advance...so...you can, but you will be bound legally to the RAF (provided you get in) for 7 years at least if you don't take any of their bonuses or special packages
blueshift, i believe we have been here before with you... Ok so you want to go get a loan of upto £100,000 (realisticaly) and go and do 'what makes you happy'... You dont care about money?
Some facts for you...
Last time i checked, only a couple of banks will even consider loaning you the money for flight training, and these days it must be for the intergrated schools not self-improvers...
The loan you would be offered, should you pass the (questionably) assesment, would need to be SECURED. That means that either you have your own property, or that your parents would need to act as garantors. Still, its ok for you as it wont be your house you will be losing, your parents would have to work harder to pay for YOUR mistakes. There is no option of bankruptcy.
The point is, the intergrated schools (CTC, OAA, FTE) could at one time help to get you an unsecured loan for your training with a couple of banks. The fact is that many of the hopefuls coming out of these courses (even in better times) were struggling to find jobs in the industry and had no back up careers to enable them to meet their loan repayments (average is £1000 per month) and so went bankrupt. This is why the banks will no longer take the risk, there were far far too many having to wipe their debts.
I know that some may be naive on here, due to age etc, but i fear people dont want to hear the harsh truths of the industry. The simple fact is that there are no pilot shortages coming up and attrition rates will not keep up with the number of lemmings coming out of their fATPL training courses.
WZZ gives excellent advice, particularly where millitary flying is concerned. I suggest people take heed of good advice and let your head rule your heart when such huge sums of money are concerned.
Some facts for you...
Last time i checked, only a couple of banks will even consider loaning you the money for flight training, and these days it must be for the intergrated schools not self-improvers...
The loan you would be offered, should you pass the (questionably) assesment, would need to be SECURED. That means that either you have your own property, or that your parents would need to act as garantors. Still, its ok for you as it wont be your house you will be losing, your parents would have to work harder to pay for YOUR mistakes. There is no option of bankruptcy.
who said it was £100,000+ of debt? and how are the current pilots of today not living on the streets having declared bankruptcy; with no money to show of the long and painstaking qualifications and courses they have taken? i would really love to know how they do it.
The point is, the intergrated schools (CTC, OAA, FTE) could at one time help to get you an unsecured loan for your training with a couple of banks. The fact is that many of the hopefuls coming out of these courses (even in better times) were struggling to find jobs in the industry and had no back up careers to enable them to meet their loan repayments (average is £1000 per month) and so went bankrupt. This is why the banks will no longer take the risk, there were far far too many having to wipe their debts.
I know that some may be naive on here, due to age etc, but i fear people dont want to hear the harsh truths of the industry. The simple fact is that there are no pilot shortages coming up and attrition rates will not keep up with the number of lemmings coming out of their fATPL training courses.
WZZ gives excellent advice, particularly where millitary flying is concerned. I suggest people take heed of good advice and let your head rule your heart when such huge sums of money are concerned.
josh.edwards
who said it was £100,000+ of debt?
I did. £70 000 ish to cover the full cost of the CTC Wings programme, and then £23 - 30 000 to cover the Easyjet Airbus type rating.
josh.edwards
and how are the current pilots of today not living on the streets having declared bankruptcy; with no money to show of the long and painstaking qualifications and courses they have taken? i would really love to know how they do it.
The "pilots of today" aren't those joining today. The guys who have been employed for 5-10 years are the ones without massive training loans to repay.
The guys who have popped out of CTC within the last 2 years or so? Some of them are declaring themselves bankrupt, with no money to show from their attempt at a career with their fATPL. Some of them are in crisis talks with HSBC to stop the bank taking action to repossess their parents homes, which the loans were secured on.
It is pretty grim. I wouldn't join that.
I know a number of ME pilots I flew with that are really struggling to find flying jobs and they are guys with 3000+ hours multi/captaincy experience. The jobs just aren't out there.
threeportdrift
I know a number of ME pilots I flew with that are really struggling to find flying jobs and they are guys with 3000+ hours multi/captaincy experience. The jobs just aren't out there.
I hope the market improves by the time I get out!
You a K nav then TPD?! Can't imagine having a 4 man flight deck!
Schleigg
Can't imagine having a 4 man flight deck!
How do you play bridge without one?
Shocking.Rucklo
Those who manage it now are usually from rich families.
Not necessarily. Those who feel they want to "skip the queue" and jump from zero to fATPL through a scheme like those run by CTC or OATS are often from rich families, but I know people who've done it with nothing but a £70 000 unsecured career development loan.
On the other hand, there are those who do it the long way. I know people in their late 20s who have started with a PPL, then worked slowly towards a twin rating, then the ME IR, then a CPL, then ATPL theory, then a night rating/IMC rating or other qualifications, changing the job they're doing as they go. They've done some PPL instruction once they've got their CPLs, they've flown air taxis, they've done some calibration flying, all sorts.
They end up with a variety of hours on different types, a full ATPL, and no significant debts because they've advanced at a sensible rate. They're also more employable than a CTC cadet because of this mixed experience and elevated hours. However, right now, the market's in a such a state that airlines are only interested in keeping their expensive, well-trained captains and supplementing them with slave-labour pay-to-fly idiots who want the hours.
Schleigg
"Good evening ladies and Gentlemen, This is your Captain speaking. Instead of the normal donations to the Sudanese Drought Fund for this flight from London to Marseille, we would appreciate you giving any small change to the cabin crew so that the Co-Pilot can buy some new socks. Thank You"
Well, you joke, but people should be kicking up much more of a fuss about this. I was chatting about this scheme to a colleague the other week who felt very strongly about it.
Picture the scene. You have an ex-CTC cadet working in a supermarket to try and afford his £1000 per month loan repayments, with a fATPL and no airline job. Easyjet come along and offer a pay-by-the-hour contract; £25 000 up front to pay for his TR, then they'll pay him £25 per flying hour for the first 18 months then £55 an hour for the second 18 months. No guarantee of hours, but he guesses that the UK average is something around 600 a year. He can't leave within the 3 years or you owe them the £25 000 immediately for refund of training costs.
He takes it, and in order to make those £1000 monthly repayments, he wants every hour going. HSBC are playing hard rules, and he's in an airline job, so he's got to make the payments or mum & dad lose their house. He's also just taken out an extra £25 000 debt to pay for this job.
He's completely at the mercy of the roster. No hours = no money = missed repayments, and no money to live off = rent not paid, bills not paid, no money to shop for food!
So what do you end up with? You get a 50 year old experienced training captain on the flight deck, and sitting next to him is a stressed, panicked, 25 year old first officer with £100k of debt, worried about how much flying he'll get this month and whether or not he'll put food on the table or afford his gas bill, and simultaneously wondering how he'll pay the loan arrears before HSBC send his mum nasty letters.
He's stressed, he's very probably not sleeping very well. What does he do if he catches flu? Well, he goes to work anyway; if he doesn't fly, he doesn't get paid!
So then your training captain keels over, and you have a stressed, inexperienced 25 year old with few hours, massive debts, poor sleeping patterns, all sorts of worries, and the beginning of a nasty case of flu in charge of a jet with 200 passengers.
Well done, all involved, that sounds safe to me. It's an obscene system.
blue_shift86
Maybe it is lunacy to you my friend by some people don't think about money, they think about what makes them happy, and to me and the OP that other thing is to be a pilot of an aeroplane
.
. It's been pointed out how naive this post is, but I can't let it slide. You simply cannot comprehend the enormity of not knowing if you're going to be able to pay your bills and eat at the end of the month. Likewise, even if you live with your parents, you're facing normal minimum outgoings, plus £1000 a month to service your debts; and I certainly wouldn't be happy as a parent if my child put me in the situation where I had to pay to cover their debts to save my own house.
It's an extremely selfish attitude, and one borne out of no experience whatsoever.
blue_shift86
You call it slave labour, but i'll tell you this: It beats any office based job a million times over. If any job is worth the debt it is to be a pilot!
And how many hours do you have to make this assessment? How many times have you flown a sector in the front of a 737? You have no idea what the job is like. For the most part, it is like a desk job, but one with a better view. There's the usual corporate rubbish, and all the usual stresses and strains you'd have working for a bank or anything like that.
The difference is, if you work for a bank you get fairly recompensed for your work. If you want to be a pilot, you have to pay £100k to get the job then accept an absolute pittance, maybe just enough to live on.
This is typical of the attitude that's feeding this degradation of terms and conditions across the airline world. Idiot wannabe thinks it's some sort of wonderful super-job, and as he's a stupid 18-23 year old, he doesn't think about sensible things like how he'll be able to afford to live and pay for his training costs.
As long as there are morons like that happy to pay to do the job, then schemes like this will continue.
If i could add to the posts by wzz, i feel i must reiterate, you can no longer just walk into a bank (HSBC, BBVA) and tell then you 'got in' OAA/CTC and walk out with a loan of £100,000, without a property as security. You can not go bankrupt as a direct result of such loans, if you were not able to pay the loans back you would LOSE either yours or your parents house. Is it realy worth it?
I believe the self improver route is the only justifiable way to consider doing flight training now or in the near future, even that is a bad idea at this current moment in time. If you are competant and shop around you could go from 'zero to hero' from as little as £35,000, and to do it all in the UK. There are some very good flying schools in the UK that dont bother forcing statistics and propaganda down your throat. They will be honest with you. Im in no way suggesting that the level of training at the intergrated schools is not good, but why pay so much more when you could effectively do it for half the price with the same level of training in many cases.
One thing about the modular route, if you go to the right FTO's you would be surprised how many contacts you could make in the industry. It is a very small community and one which you should strive to at least get a good name for yourself. I have already made some valuable contacts, hopefuly many more to come should i decide to go commercial in the future.
One thing about the modular route, some bigger schools will tell you that it is hard to find a job if you go down that route. This is a misleading statement, at one time it may have been 'harder' to get your first job, as CTC/OAA have links with some airlines like easyjet. This may have been a selling point at some time, but as wzz says, look at what they are doing to those swimming in the hold pool now. It is also worth pointing out that once you have gained experience and have 1500 hours to unfreeze your ATPL you will not be looked at any differently.
A couple of hypothetiocal situations.
Student A; goes to an OAA/CTC open day, believes all of the marketing spin they are being sold, they see a career as a pilot being glamorous and 'sorted for life'. They go to the 'assesment' and get a place on the course, provided they can go and get a big loan to pay for the training. They go off to the bank, secure a small mortgage on their parents house, they are proud, their child is going to Oxford. Student A goes into his/her zero to hero course and comes out the other end, forced to find a job within 6 months before they are due to start repaying their loans. They may get a Ryanair interview (at a cost) and if they get the job (assuming they can get a further £30,000 to pay for Type and line training) they will be sent off on a fairly long and intensive training course where they will be paid nothing and have to find living costs. They would also be most likely training in a foreign country and must find somewhere to live, not to mention uniforms etc... Dont forget they are not getting paid anything at this point. They then enter into an agency comtract with Brookfield where they aill work for Ryanair, being paid by the hour, working from any base in Europe. They are hoping they get as many hours as possible as if they dont get them, they dont get paid. God forbid if they get ill... Should Student A struggle to get a job with Ryanair, and they didnt sign up for the scheme with Easyjet, they apply for all sorts of jobs but keep getting knocked back as they dont have enough experience. They leave the Turbo Prop jobs till last as its sooo below them, only to find the lower pay offered by these organisations would not allow them to pay their loans, and they struggle to get a job with these operators because they are from an intergrated school. Whoops, they didnt even think about a backup career to fall back on. Its back to their parents with their tails between their legs, back to working in Tescos with their parents having to pay out for the most of the loan repayments, their licence lapses as there is no way they can afford to keep current.
Student B; wanted to be a pilot since they can remember, having left school they have been doing extensive research into the route into flying. Perhaps once considered intergrated as a good route in only to find that, after looking around, they could carry on and get a job, perhaps in the aviation industry, make numerous contacts and also get a real feel for the industry. They start saving and fitting flight training around work, paying as they go. They may get stuck for money at somepoint, but its ok because they can get upto £10,000 in a career development loan from the government. They have fun doing their hour building by taking friends and family on cross countryflights at weekends. After some time they complete their training, they still have their job which they quite enjoy, and it pays more than enough to cover their minimal debt. They also have enough left at the end of the month to keep their licence current, plus they can look forward to affording a drink at the weekend with their mates. Through sending CV's out by the truckload, they get an interview with an operator, because student B seems to know alot about the industry he/she is offered a job. The pay is £20,000 per year basic, with some fairly decent perks for a small operator. Student B knows someone who completed training at a similar time at the same flying club, he got talking to a chap who popped in now and again for a coffee, turns out he is the training captain at a localy based airline. He says there is an opening and he should go down for an interview. This guy got the job too. Debt free and no stress, enjoying the job, knowing that when they have enough experience they can go out and apply for any of the major airlines should they want to.
This may be a long drawn out post, and i have not spell checked/proof read it. These are both based on stories i have heard and experiences of friends in the industry.
I know which situation i would like to be in, particularly during these precarious few years. There is absolutely no way of knowing when it will end either...
I believe the self improver route is the only justifiable way to consider doing flight training now or in the near future, even that is a bad idea at this current moment in time. If you are competant and shop around you could go from 'zero to hero' from as little as £35,000, and to do it all in the UK. There are some very good flying schools in the UK that dont bother forcing statistics and propaganda down your throat. They will be honest with you. Im in no way suggesting that the level of training at the intergrated schools is not good, but why pay so much more when you could effectively do it for half the price with the same level of training in many cases.
One thing about the modular route, if you go to the right FTO's you would be surprised how many contacts you could make in the industry. It is a very small community and one which you should strive to at least get a good name for yourself. I have already made some valuable contacts, hopefuly many more to come should i decide to go commercial in the future.
One thing about the modular route, some bigger schools will tell you that it is hard to find a job if you go down that route. This is a misleading statement, at one time it may have been 'harder' to get your first job, as CTC/OAA have links with some airlines like easyjet. This may have been a selling point at some time, but as wzz says, look at what they are doing to those swimming in the hold pool now. It is also worth pointing out that once you have gained experience and have 1500 hours to unfreeze your ATPL you will not be looked at any differently.
A couple of hypothetiocal situations.
Student A; goes to an OAA/CTC open day, believes all of the marketing spin they are being sold, they see a career as a pilot being glamorous and 'sorted for life'. They go to the 'assesment' and get a place on the course, provided they can go and get a big loan to pay for the training. They go off to the bank, secure a small mortgage on their parents house, they are proud, their child is going to Oxford. Student A goes into his/her zero to hero course and comes out the other end, forced to find a job within 6 months before they are due to start repaying their loans. They may get a Ryanair interview (at a cost) and if they get the job (assuming they can get a further £30,000 to pay for Type and line training) they will be sent off on a fairly long and intensive training course where they will be paid nothing and have to find living costs. They would also be most likely training in a foreign country and must find somewhere to live, not to mention uniforms etc... Dont forget they are not getting paid anything at this point. They then enter into an agency comtract with Brookfield where they aill work for Ryanair, being paid by the hour, working from any base in Europe. They are hoping they get as many hours as possible as if they dont get them, they dont get paid. God forbid if they get ill... Should Student A struggle to get a job with Ryanair, and they didnt sign up for the scheme with Easyjet, they apply for all sorts of jobs but keep getting knocked back as they dont have enough experience. They leave the Turbo Prop jobs till last as its sooo below them, only to find the lower pay offered by these organisations would not allow them to pay their loans, and they struggle to get a job with these operators because they are from an intergrated school. Whoops, they didnt even think about a backup career to fall back on. Its back to their parents with their tails between their legs, back to working in Tescos with their parents having to pay out for the most of the loan repayments, their licence lapses as there is no way they can afford to keep current.
Student B; wanted to be a pilot since they can remember, having left school they have been doing extensive research into the route into flying. Perhaps once considered intergrated as a good route in only to find that, after looking around, they could carry on and get a job, perhaps in the aviation industry, make numerous contacts and also get a real feel for the industry. They start saving and fitting flight training around work, paying as they go. They may get stuck for money at somepoint, but its ok because they can get upto £10,000 in a career development loan from the government. They have fun doing their hour building by taking friends and family on cross countryflights at weekends. After some time they complete their training, they still have their job which they quite enjoy, and it pays more than enough to cover their minimal debt. They also have enough left at the end of the month to keep their licence current, plus they can look forward to affording a drink at the weekend with their mates. Through sending CV's out by the truckload, they get an interview with an operator, because student B seems to know alot about the industry he/she is offered a job. The pay is £20,000 per year basic, with some fairly decent perks for a small operator. Student B knows someone who completed training at a similar time at the same flying club, he got talking to a chap who popped in now and again for a coffee, turns out he is the training captain at a localy based airline. He says there is an opening and he should go down for an interview. This guy got the job too. Debt free and no stress, enjoying the job, knowing that when they have enough experience they can go out and apply for any of the major airlines should they want to.
This may be a long drawn out post, and i have not spell checked/proof read it. These are both based on stories i have heard and experiences of friends in the industry.
I know which situation i would like to be in, particularly during these precarious few years. There is absolutely no way of knowing when it will end either...
Wzz
It's been pointed out how naive this post is, but I can't let it slide. You simply cannot comprehend the enormity of not knowing if you're going to be able to pay your bills and eat at the end of the month. Likewise, even if you live with your parents, you're facing normal minimum outgoings, plus £1000 a month to service your debts; and I certainly wouldn't be happy as a parent if my child put me in the situation where I had to pay to cover their debts to save my own house.
It's an extremely selfish attitude, and one borne out of no experience whatsoever.
And how many hours do you have to make this assessment? How many times have you flown a sector in the front of a 737? You have no idea what the job is like. For the most part, it is like a desk job, but one with a better view. There's the usual corporate rubbish, and all the usual stresses and strains you'd have working for a bank or anything like that.
The difference is, if you work for a bank you get fairly recompensed for your work. If you want to be a pilot, you have to pay £100k to get the job then accept an absolute pittance, maybe just enough to live on.
This is typical of the attitude that's feeding this degradation of terms and conditions across the airline world. Idiot wannabe thinks it's some sort of wonderful super-job, and as he's a stupid 18-23 year old, he doesn't think about sensible things like how he'll be able to afford to live and pay for his training costs.
As long as there are morons like that happy to pay to do the job, then schemes like this will continue.
It's an extremely selfish attitude, and one borne out of no experience whatsoever.
And how many hours do you have to make this assessment? How many times have you flown a sector in the front of a 737? You have no idea what the job is like. For the most part, it is like a desk job, but one with a better view. There's the usual corporate rubbish, and all the usual stresses and strains you'd have working for a bank or anything like that.
The difference is, if you work for a bank you get fairly recompensed for your work. If you want to be a pilot, you have to pay £100k to get the job then accept an absolute pittance, maybe just enough to live on.
This is typical of the attitude that's feeding this degradation of terms and conditions across the airline world. Idiot wannabe thinks it's some sort of wonderful super-job, and as he's a stupid 18-23 year old, he doesn't think about sensible things like how he'll be able to afford to live and pay for his training costs.
As long as there are morons like that happy to pay to do the job, then schemes like this will continue.
could you just have a look at this course then please. tell me your thoughts on it as well. here's a link to the detailed course outline as well. cheers.
josh.edwards, this course may be good if you want to get your foot in the door with a view to working in the aviation industry. If your aim is to become a pilot then im not too sure of its worth, but a job in airport management would certainly be interesting and something i would like to get into. It could open doors in the future. Notice, though, that you will only gain the PPL and ATPL exams, you would still have to sponsor yourself through the rest of the flight training at some expense.
I would say go for it if your aim is not just the right hand seat of an airline. If you want to go straight into flying why not look at something like Business with a year on the job? That way you will have transferable skills and you are not narrowing down your choices to one particular industry.
I would say go for it if your aim is not just the right hand seat of an airline. If you want to go straight into flying why not look at something like Business with a year on the job? That way you will have transferable skills and you are not narrowing down your choices to one particular industry.
pug
josh.edwards, this course may be good if you want to get your foot in the door with a view to working in the aviation industry. If your aim is to become a pilot then im not too sure of its worth, but a job in airport management would certainly be interesting and something i would like to get into. It could open doors in the future. Notice, though, that you will only gain the PPL and ATPL exams, you would still have to sponsor yourself through the rest of the flight training at some expense.
I would say go for it if your aim is not just the right hand seat of an airline. If you want to go straight into flying why not look at something like Business with a year on the job? That way you will have transferable skills and you are not narrowing down your choices to one particular industry.
I would say go for it if your aim is not just the right hand seat of an airline. If you want to go straight into flying why not look at something like Business with a year on the job? That way you will have transferable skills and you are not narrowing down your choices to one particular industry.
on the course website it does say 'In addition, students can gain a frozen ATPL (Air Transport Pilots Licence) for commercial flying. This means that once sufficient flying hours are acquired, you will be able to fly commercial aircraft.'
Related discussions
- Becoming a pilot
- Becoming a pilot, A-Level subject choices
- How to become an airline pilot
- Are Maths, Physics and Chemistry good subjects for A-Levels?
- What option would you recommend and why?
- Pilot training fees help
- Becoming a Pilot
- Which A-levels are most suitable for aspiring pilots?
- I am a pilot working towards a commercial licence. Ask me anything!
- Question about A Level Maths and Physics
- British NASA
- Can you become a Pilot with BTEC qualifications?
- Becoming a Pilot
- Commercial Pilot Training
- Pilot
- What career should I do?
- Mature student Chem grade
- raf jobs and application
- Private Pilot License in RAF
- University
Latest
Trending
Last reply 3 months ago
How can I go about appealing my army application after medically unfit report?Trending
Last reply 3 months ago
How can I go about appealing my army application after medically unfit report?
