ETH Zurich QF vs Oxford MFE
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I know a lot of Italians working in Lugano, Zurich and Geneve. I'm talking about graduates as well as HF traders with 10 yrs of experience and private bankers managing portfolios worth billions.
As in any country, I think that the "racism" is mainly toward low-mid level jobs and not banking. Citizens are usually worried about the foreign worker/clerk/nurse/etc..., not the foreign trader or banker.....
IMHO, ETH is better mainly because Oxford is too expensive and I heard some not great opinions about it....
As in any country, I think that the "racism" is mainly toward low-mid level jobs and not banking. Citizens are usually worried about the foreign worker/clerk/nurse/etc..., not the foreign trader or banker.....
IMHO, ETH is better mainly because Oxford is too expensive and I heard some not great opinions about it....
no speak german=minimal job prospect in Swiss
take the safer route, and go for the known entity:Oxford
WokSz
What makes you say this? Your wealth of knowledge of the industry? 
Who the **** are you, man? Land your first job before you lecture me on the market for graduates in finance.
FYI, I recently talked to recruiters and people close to "those firms in Zug" and there is no ambiguity: they mostly recruit from London.
Hence, you need to find a grad job in London. I am pretty confident the Oxford MFE is the best programme for that, on par with LSE. Not only does it place in IB and trading, some people also get insane hedge fund and prop shop gigs every year. In no way do other schools compare, and ETH is no exception. Yes I might be biased: feel free to disagree with me and ramble about it with a senseless two-page "argumentation".
Now the original poster is free to do whatever he sees fit. Actually he should go to ETH, it would ease the competition. Personally I have better things to do than prove myself on an internet forum on a Saturday afternoon.
PS: I am sure ETH has great links with insurance companies and the like. However, that's not where you want to be. Being an actuary is not the sweet spot in finance. Plus, when you're 35 and want to switch careers, your ETH degree will be useless. Also, I sincerely believe that the Oxford MFE is more reputed than the Oxford MBA.
Academically speaking, Oxford was intellectually more challenging but overall easier than my undergrad. I am sure the ETH MSc is more rigorous; but who cares? The places where maths really are at a premium (= Jane Street) will directly recruit Oxbridge math grads anyway.
In terms of value for money... Do you finish around January at ETH? If so, you lose one year rather than six months, because in finance you usually join in July-September. My ballpark estimate of the 1st salary after an Oxford MFE is 50k-70k GBP all in. Even taxed at 40% that's a significant amount of money, and opportunity cost.
puax
Now the original poster is free to do whatever he sees fit. Actually he should go to ETH, it would ease the competition.
sorry if I take over the topic for a little (not at all anyway).
I'd like to discuss about this point.
I mean, generally is it better to go enroll in a less competitive Msc (but still respectable) in which you are sure to be one of the best, or in a very competitive one?
I mean, in the first case you are the best of the "average" hence you'll enter in IBD, in the second case you are "average" between the best students, so it'd be harder to break in.
But what about the post-recruitment? Will the competitiveness, reputation and brand of your MSc affect your career even after you maanged to get an offer, or it will be totally useless and unconsidered, since what will matter will be your job?
p.s. sorry for the bad english, but i'm an italian student finishing my 1st year at uni, I'm working on it.
Thanks.
Your rank does not matter for a one-year MSc, because you enter the recruiting season without grades. There is no way for a recruiter to know where you stand vis-à-vis your peers. At Oxford in particular, you're not really ranked. So even after graduation, only a handful of people (~15%) get a distinction, or make the dean's list.
In finance/consulting, what matters most is your undergraduate institution and results (here I have no opinion on what's best, middle of top or top of middle) as well as previous internships.
Your alma mater will always matter, albeit less. In particular, some alumni networks are more valuable than others.
Hope it helps.
PS: if you're at Bocconi, you're on the right track.
In finance/consulting, what matters most is your undergraduate institution and results (here I have no opinion on what's best, middle of top or top of middle) as well as previous internships.
Your alma mater will always matter, albeit less. In particular, some alumni networks are more valuable than others.
Hope it helps.
PS: if you're at Bocconi, you're on the right track.
puax
Who the **** are you, man? Land your first job before you lecture me on the market for graduates in finance.
FYI, I recently talked to recruiters and people close to "those firms in Zug" and there is no ambiguity: they mostly recruit from London.
Hence, you need to find a grad job in London. I am pretty confident the Oxford MFE is the best programme for that, on par with LSE. Not only does it place in IB and trading, some people also get insane hedge fund and prop shop gigs every year. In no way do other schools compare, and ETH is no exception. Yes I might be biased: feel free to disagree with me and ramble about it with a senseless two-page "argumentation".
Now the original poster is free to do whatever he sees fit. Actually he should go to ETH, it would ease the competition. Personally I have better things to do than prove myself on an internet forum on a Saturday afternoon.
PS: I am sure ETH has great links with insurance companies and the like. However, that's not where you want to be. Being an actuary is not the sweet spot in finance. Plus, when you're 35 and want to switch careers, your ETH degree will be useless. Also, I sincerely believe that the Oxford MFE is more reputed than the Oxford MBA.
Academically speaking, Oxford was intellectually more challenging but overall easier than my undergrad. I am sure the ETH MSc is more rigorous; but who cares? The places where maths really are at a premium (= Jane Street) will directly recruit Oxbridge math grads anyway.
In terms of value for money... Do you finish around January at ETH? If so, you lose one year rather than six months, because in finance you usually join in July-September. My ballpark estimate of the 1st salary after an Oxford MFE is 50k-70k GBP all in. Even taxed at 40% that's a significant amount of money, and opportunity cost.
FYI, I recently talked to recruiters and people close to "those firms in Zug" and there is no ambiguity: they mostly recruit from London.
Hence, you need to find a grad job in London. I am pretty confident the Oxford MFE is the best programme for that, on par with LSE. Not only does it place in IB and trading, some people also get insane hedge fund and prop shop gigs every year. In no way do other schools compare, and ETH is no exception. Yes I might be biased: feel free to disagree with me and ramble about it with a senseless two-page "argumentation".
Now the original poster is free to do whatever he sees fit. Actually he should go to ETH, it would ease the competition. Personally I have better things to do than prove myself on an internet forum on a Saturday afternoon.
PS: I am sure ETH has great links with insurance companies and the like. However, that's not where you want to be. Being an actuary is not the sweet spot in finance. Plus, when you're 35 and want to switch careers, your ETH degree will be useless. Also, I sincerely believe that the Oxford MFE is more reputed than the Oxford MBA.
Academically speaking, Oxford was intellectually more challenging but overall easier than my undergrad. I am sure the ETH MSc is more rigorous; but who cares? The places where maths really are at a premium (= Jane Street) will directly recruit Oxbridge math grads anyway.
In terms of value for money... Do you finish around January at ETH? If so, you lose one year rather than six months, because in finance you usually join in July-September. My ballpark estimate of the 1st salary after an Oxford MFE is 50k-70k GBP all in. Even taxed at 40% that's a significant amount of money, and opportunity cost.
I'm not an expert, but I think that this is partially true.
- Talking with some people working in HFs or WM boutiques, the impression is that they don't hire many graduates. They usually look for people with some experience (in London, Frankfurt, Zurich, etc...).
- If you absolutely want to work in London, go to Oxford
- Getting into a prop desk/HF is difficult whatever is your university. Maybe easier at Oxbridge/LSE, but my impression is that a large majority get more "standard" jobs (and I don't know how the new rules will impact this field)
- ETHZ is strong in Switzerland not only for insurance (and insurance is not only actuary, but also asset management)
- Oxford is a "professional" master, ETHZ is more academic. I think that the % of ETHZ student doing a PhD (finance, maths, stats, etc...) is way higher than MFE. And there its reputation is stellar.
- If you want to switch career later, I think that there isn't a big difference....
Sure, if you want to do a PhD in quant fin, ETH is a better preparation... but then again the MFE opens the doors to a DPhil in Oxford (with unconditional admission if you graduate in the top 15%). Oxford's reputation in economics (Nuffield, Klemperer,...), econometrics (D. F. Hendry,...) and quantitative finance (Oxford-Man institute) trumps Zurich's hands down.
As for hedge funds, prop desks and shops, MFEs certainly end up there. Last year and - I hear - this year also several people went to hedge funds and prop desks. Hell, a student even turned down a prop position at GS...
So unless you want to do a PhD, think you can get placed directly with a Swiss HF or want to work in insurance (sorry but 90% of insurance is just not cool), I don't see why one would choose ETH over Oxford. Maybe ETH is an engineering powerhouse but we're talking finance here.
I also still think it's easier to switch careers from Oxford. Sorry but there is no universal "wow" factor with ETH on your CV.
And, finally, although it is plausible that ETH grads are smarter and more valuable than MFE grads on average, here's a list of companies I directly talked to during on-campus recruitment in Oxford:
Goldman Sachs
Morgan Stanley
Blackstone
Credit Suisse
JP Morgan
BP oil trading
Jane Street
Tibra Capital
Bain Capital
Lazard
Man Group / AHL
Nomura
Barcap
BNP Paribas
Evercore
Moelis
I had interviews with 50% of them. There is no way ETH offers that exposure.
PS: of course I'm tooting my own horn. The more people apply, the more valuable my degree is.
As for hedge funds, prop desks and shops, MFEs certainly end up there. Last year and - I hear - this year also several people went to hedge funds and prop desks. Hell, a student even turned down a prop position at GS...
So unless you want to do a PhD, think you can get placed directly with a Swiss HF or want to work in insurance (sorry but 90% of insurance is just not cool), I don't see why one would choose ETH over Oxford. Maybe ETH is an engineering powerhouse but we're talking finance here.
I also still think it's easier to switch careers from Oxford. Sorry but there is no universal "wow" factor with ETH on your CV.
And, finally, although it is plausible that ETH grads are smarter and more valuable than MFE grads on average, here's a list of companies I directly talked to during on-campus recruitment in Oxford:
Goldman Sachs
Morgan Stanley
Blackstone
Credit Suisse
JP Morgan
BP oil trading
Jane Street
Tibra Capital
Bain Capital
Lazard
Man Group / AHL
Nomura
Barcap
BNP Paribas
Evercore
Moelis
I had interviews with 50% of them. There is no way ETH offers that exposure.
PS: of course I'm tooting my own horn. The more people apply, the more valuable my degree is.
Btw I came across the exact same discussion on Wilmott (http://www.wilmott.com/messageview.cfm?catid=16&threadid=77582&FTVAR_MSGDBTABLE=)
Wilmott also founded the Diploma in Mathematical Finance at Oxford. I would also say that if you think you're a quant, then apply to Oxford's MSc in Mathematical and Computational Finance, which is the best of both worlds.
Wilmott also founded the Diploma in Mathematical Finance at Oxford. I would also say that if you think you're a quant, then apply to Oxford's MSc in Mathematical and Computational Finance, which is the best of both worlds.
puax
Btw I came across the exact same discussion on Wilmott (http://www.wilmott.com/messageview.cfm?catid=16&threadid=77582&FTVAR_MSGDBTABLE=)
From Dominic Connor, a well known headhunter in Global Financial Markets , posting on Wilmott:
"As a headhunter I am viciously neutral about universities, I care only about what sells.
I have to tell you that it [ ETH ] is not what we call a 'named school' which is simply defined as one which hiring managers talk of when they mention schools they like.
That not only puts ETH behind Oxford, but over 10 courses in Britain alone.
I'm not saying it is a bad course, and you will certainly learn a lot, but assume the brand value to be very low which is unfair but true. "
Oxford will be much more fun. it will essentially be one big networking event.
the reason you don't find ETH grads in zurich is, because you can count ETH grads interested in banking with your fingers and they have exams during the summer till august-ish or maybe even longer.
i acutally met an intern from EH today, probably the only one currently around, and he said everyone he knows from ETH who wanted to, got into banking in london
i acutally met an intern from EH today, probably the only one currently around, and he said everyone he knows from ETH who wanted to, got into banking in london
I have completed the MSc QF at ETH Zurich. It was definitely a good investment for me, and got me into a great front office job. The degree is definitely very academic and theoretical, but you could argue that it's better to learn theory at uni and practical knowledge, well, on the job. Most people who work in quantitative finance come from a maths, physics, computer science background, and these people always know ETH. It's a science powerhouse, which spit out great minds like e.g. Einstein.
I would be very careful with rough judgements. Oxford is obviously a more widely known name, and every grandmother has heard of it. But this Oxford master and the Said school in general is definitely not one of Oxford's highlights, but rather a commercial sidearm which brings in some money for the poor academics. It is less selective. In contrast, the master at ETH is highly regarded at the school itself, and it is offered like any of its other degrees, at very low cost to the student. The cost of the program is actually higher at ETH than at Oxford, due to the higher number of classes and professors involved, but the costs are all covered by the huge federal budget that ETH receives from the government.
I agree that if you look at things long term, then the tuition starts to look less relevant, but getting a lesser degree AND pay huge tuition => I would bite my toes off.
If you want to work in London, then Oxford's proximity probably comes in handy, but any decent IB will pay your flight tickets for interview sessions, so I would not place too much value on that. And anybody who can feel the cold wind from Brussel's anti-bonus regulation against London knows that Switzerland is the new place to be.
If you are from the EU, then you don't need a working visa for Switzerland. If you come from outside (China, India...) then it similar to the UK or US, i.e. you need a company that is willing to sponsor you.
I would be very careful with rough judgements. Oxford is obviously a more widely known name, and every grandmother has heard of it. But this Oxford master and the Said school in general is definitely not one of Oxford's highlights, but rather a commercial sidearm which brings in some money for the poor academics. It is less selective. In contrast, the master at ETH is highly regarded at the school itself, and it is offered like any of its other degrees, at very low cost to the student. The cost of the program is actually higher at ETH than at Oxford, due to the higher number of classes and professors involved, but the costs are all covered by the huge federal budget that ETH receives from the government.
I agree that if you look at things long term, then the tuition starts to look less relevant, but getting a lesser degree AND pay huge tuition => I would bite my toes off.
If you want to work in London, then Oxford's proximity probably comes in handy, but any decent IB will pay your flight tickets for interview sessions, so I would not place too much value on that. And anybody who can feel the cold wind from Brussel's anti-bonus regulation against London knows that Switzerland is the new place to be.
If you are from the EU, then you don't need a working visa for Switzerland. If you come from outside (China, India...) then it similar to the UK or US, i.e. you need a company that is willing to sponsor you.
I haven't found their acceptance rate anywhere.
Also earnings just after graduation are pretty much similar to the comparable degrees. I haven't found the data for ETH anywhere.
On the other hand, ETH does not have any data for salaries after their degree.
Wmeier, what would be your estimation for post MSc QF earning prospects? All other degrees make this figure public.
Also earnings just after graduation are pretty much similar to the comparable degrees. I haven't found the data for ETH anywhere.
On the other hand, ETH does not have any data for salaries after their degree.
Wmeier, what would be your estimation for post MSc QF earning prospects? All other degrees make this figure public.
In my class the rate was 10%. Circa 700 applicants for 70 students, consistent with an average GMAT of 731.
Use your brain: the starting salaries are similar considered paychecks are uniform across banks. Some make more at prop shops and the like. The average MFE pay must be higher if you include people who didn't get a job and assign them a pay of zero.
Use your brain: the starting salaries are similar considered paychecks are uniform across banks. Some make more at prop shops and the like. The average MFE pay must be higher if you include people who didn't get a job and assign them a pay of zero.
I would say that the salary is not so much a question of where you graduated from, but rather where you intend to work: Switzerland, London, New York, Hong Kong... In banks everybody gets the same base salary in the beginning.
In Switzerland salaries for fresh graduates tend to be higher than in other European countries. You should expect around CHF 85-100k p.a. base salary after graduation (assuming no previous experience).
In Switzerland salaries for fresh graduates tend to be higher than in other European countries. You should expect around CHF 85-100k p.a. base salary after graduation (assuming no previous experience).
wmeier
I would say that the salary is not so much a question of where you graduated from, but rather where you intend to work: Switzerland, London, New York, Hong Kong... In banks everybody gets the same base salary in the beginning.
In Switzerland salaries for fresh graduates tend to be higher than in other European countries. You should expect around CHF 85-100k p.a. base salary after graduation (assuming no previous experience).
In Switzerland salaries for fresh graduates tend to be higher than in other European countries. You should expect around CHF 85-100k p.a. base salary after graduation (assuming no previous experience).
jsut converted it to euros, and it doesn't 85k CHF isn't much higer than startign base in germany for IB and cnsulting. in fact, probably pretty much on par with consulting starting salary, fr the big ones anyway.
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