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Reply 40
Accused rapists; yes.
Convicted rapists; no, not at all.
CombineHarvester
What's wrong with that? There will inevitably be some rape claims that are false and this law seeks to protect the innocent victim of such an accusation.


Well, the problem I have with it is that the way rape cases are dealt with, our society's attitude to rape and the way rape victims are treated are all severely messed up- as you can see by the statistics. I think the fact that we're focusing on a tiny minority of allegations and saying that the problem lies there is to totally miss the point.

I do see the reasoning, and of course I don't think that a falsely accused man deserves the crap he gets, I think that sucks. But I think that this proposal comes from the nasty, underlying attitude we have in society towards rape victims.
Fat-Love
what if a child or another person acusses someone of sexually abusing them when they were younger (not actual rape but sexual stuff). That's a pretty life destroying accusation isn't it especially if the child manages to get you into court about it. What about murder too or theft/robbery ?


Ultimately, it is because there is a large class of rape/sexual assault accusations where the only evidence of guilt is the accuser's word (often referred to as 'date rape cases' ).

For most other crimes, where this is the case, the CPS would usually decline to prosecute, because juries are rightly reluctant to convict in one-person's-word-against-another's cases, feeling that they cannot know the truth for sure.

However, for political reasons, the CPS have in recent decades come under a lot of pressure to prosecute date rape cases. As a result, the number of such cases taken to court has risen dramatically while the number of convictions has risen only slightly, which has naturally lowered the "conviction rate" (officially defined as the ratio of convictions to prosecutions).

There is a further complication in that the feminist lobby have deliberately and wrongly redefined the "conviction rate" as the ratio of convictions to *accusations*. This lowers the "conviction rate" even further, but it is not a very useful number, because it includes many obviously false or at least dubious accusations.

Feminists hold it as an article of faith that no rape accusation is ever false. Naturally this leads them to certain conclusions about the failings of the judicial process, but these conclusions are of no value because of the falsity of the premise.
Reply 43
Fat-Love
what if a child or another person acusses someone of sexually abusing them when they were younger (not actual rape but sexual stuff). That's a pretty life destroying accusation isn't it especially if the child manages to get you into court about it. What about murder too or theft/robbery ?


Hm. I guess you could apply it there too.

I'd rather be falsely accused of murder than rape, even though murder is the graver crime. Yay for feminism.
Yes, I've heard of quite a few mens lives who have been destroyed due to fake rape allogations by some reptilian bint.
Reply 45
Gavzzz
Yes because once a person is accused of a crime like that they are guilty in the eyes of the public. Once it has been confirmed in court without a shadow of a doubt then the names and details should be made public.


This
Reply 46
missygeorgia
But rape is obviously primarily a problem for women. We can't just ignore the fact that the vast, vast majority of rape victims are female. Of course we need to focus on why it is that women are being victimised in this way, and try and amend this. Obviously we should give all the support we can to male victims of rape, but as it stands, it's women who are very much the primary victims of sexual violence.


Errrrrnn wrong.

60% of rapes are committed against women, 7% against men and the remainder against children, where sex is irrelevant.

It is not a female issue.
missygeorgia
But rape is obviously primarily a problem for women. We can't just ignore the fact that the vast, vast majority of rape victims are female. Of course we need to focus on why it is that women are being victimised in this way, and try and amend this. Obviously we should give all the support we can to male victims of rape, but as it stands, it's women who are very much the primary victims of sexual violence.


Well, no. My point was that seeing as it is more of a social stigma for a man to be raped, that it whether women are raped more is something that'll never be a proven fact.

Just a quick google search proves my point:

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2001/prison/report7.html#_1_48

It suggests that more men are raped in American prisons than women in the general population of the USA.

Also, there is other evidence to show that the misconception of involuntary arousal in men vs. women creates bias insides the court; a woman can in fact rape a man, but even if convicted, these misconceptions inevitably breed a miscarriage of justice in some respects.

Do not get me wrong, I think rape is largely a crime that is mishandled in our justice systems. But feminist campaigning does nothing to help the cause of the many male victims of rape, and I think it's entirely wrong to state that 'women are the primary victims of sexual violence'.
Alex M2
Errrrrnn wrong.

60% of rapes are committed against women, 7% against men and the remainder against children, where sex is irrelevant.

It is not a female issue.


So those statistics just completely reiterated my point. 7%? come on.
Subcutaneous
It's estimated 3-9% of all rape claims are false, hardly a massive amount


Are you serious? Whilst 3% is a relatively small percentage, that's still 3% more than should be publically named and shamed before conviction.

The latest statistics I have to hand are for 2007 [report by BBC based on HO stats], but that's not too long ago, and anonymous feedback suggest that ~85,000 rapes occur each year, yet only ~800 men per year are convicted of rape. Of course there's the whole being too scared to report anything, or thinking it will do more harm, but that suggests that <1% of alleged rapists are convicted of rape.

Personally, I know a Scout Leader who was accused of rape, but was found not guilty because the apparent victim admitted to false allegations. I also know an elderly man who was robbed by two teenage girls, was acused of rape, and it took interviewing the two girls 7 times before they admitted to making false allegations. Both have had their lives turned upside down by the backlash from local residents and peers in youth organisations.

I don't agree with the way we as a nation treat the accused, yet not convicted, but I do, as a result, feel as though they should be protected from such prejudice.
If Venables' new identity is to be concealed to prevent vigilantes, I don't see why accused rapists (who could be innocent) should not also have their identities protected. It's a load of ******** that giving them anonymity will discourage rape victims from coming forward. When someone below a certain age (I believe it's 18, but could be wrong) commits a serious crime, they are given anonymity, are people seriously suggesting that this discourages their victims from coming forward?

I do believe that if they are proven to be guilty they should be named and shamed however.
Reply 51
Yes, yes they do.
How is it fair that the actions of one woman could end the livelihood of someone who could be entirely innocent? They should remain anonymous until they are proven guilty - Then you can flood the media with their identity.
Reply 52
missygeorgia
So those statistics just completely reiterated my point. 7%? come on.


To you 60% is the vast majority?

Can I get your dealer's number? You must be smoking some pretty good stuff.
Reply 53
Gavzzz
Yes because once a person is accused of a crime like that they are guilty in the eyes of the public. Once it has been confirmed in court without a shadow of a doubt then the names and details should be made public.


Agreed also.

Rape in particular could bring a person's life to ruins if it got out that they had committed it, and if this turns out to be wrong it would have terrible consequences for an innocent person.
There's a strong argument for all accused persons being given the right to anonymity. Rape in particular.
If accused rapists deserve anonymity, then so does everyone who is accused of a crime. If the law is to be changed it should be across the board. I think it's probably right that a person should retain their right to privacy until found guilty, but I see absolutely no reason why it should be the case for rape only.
missygeorgia
Well, the problem I have with it is that the way rape cases are dealt with, our society's attitude to rape and the way rape victims are treated are all severely messed up- as you can see by the statistics. I think the fact that we're focusing on a tiny minority of allegations and saying that the problem lies there is to totally miss the point.

I do see the reasoning, and of course I don't think that a falsely accused man deserves the crap he gets, I think that sucks. But I think that this proposal comes from the nasty, underlying attitude we have in society towards rape victims.

I don't think this law would make a difference to the attitude towards rape (or rape claims) in society. If anything, it'll legitimise the disgust shown towards actual rapists and the attitude of "maybe he's innocent" towards publicised rapists will disappear with this law. It should be pretty simple, once someone presses a rape charge, both the suspect and the victim should receive complete anonymity and the suspect should be named and shamed once convicted. Anything other than that is completely unfair.
Reply 57
No, because the conviction rape in this country is so poor because so few cases get a conviction. Not because the rape didn't happen, but because of technicalities, and unfortunately I am speaking from personal experience. The man who raped me is walking free today, justice wasn't served, but at the least it would have been a comfort for his identity to be made public so that other victims could have come forward.
RedRevolver
Well, no. My point was that seeing as it is more of a social stigma for a man to be raped, that it whether women are raped more is something that'll never be a proven fact.

Just a quick google search proves my point:

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2001/prison/report7.html#_1_48

It suggests that more men are raped in American prisons than women in the general population of the USA.

Also, there is other evidence to show that the misconception of involuntary arousal in men vs. women creates bias insides the court; a woman can in fact rape a man, but even if convicted, these misconceptions inevitably breed a miscarriage of justice in some respects.

Do not get me wrong, I think rape is largely a crime that is mishandled in our justice systems. But feminist campaigning does nothing to help the cause of the many male victims of rape, and I think it's entirely wrong to state that 'women are the primary victims of sexual violence'.



Of course you can't 'factually prove' much when it comes to this- I could just as easily say 'there's no way you can prove that every single woman in this country hasn't been raped'- but there are lots of very reliable studies on these things that we can't just dismiss. It seems frankly ludicrous to imply that men are raped as much as women in this country, even with the stigma for male rape victims- everything we can see in society indicates otherwise- that women are the primary victims of sexual violence.

I agree with you that the way male rape victims are treated is terrible, and they really need to be taken more seriously. But don't undermine the huge scale of rape and sexual violence against women- because it's shockingly widespread, and it really says something about our attitude towards women in our society.

(regarding the USA prison rape thing- I take your point, but I think that's a phenomena that's fairly specific to the US- or at least, not that relevant to the UK)
Alex M2
To you 60% is the vast majority?

Can I get your dealer's number? You must be smoking some pretty good stuff.


Firstly, where are your stats from?

Assuming half the child victims at least were female, then yes, that is the vast majority.

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