The Israel-Palestine Conflict Mk.III

Original post by Aj12

Do you often go out in Islamic attire?

Yes, relatively speaking that is.

Reply 2362

firewithfire

Original post by adam_zed

How is special school working out for you? Look, I dont care about your question (which doesnt even appear to make sense), my issue was on a completely different aspect of your post, so tackle it instead of hiding behind "oOoOoOoOoOo look at my unanswerable question" charade.

Please stop referring war as "reality". If an ant bites a human, it gets squashed with little effort. If the West Bank started slaughtering Israelis on the masses that you describe, those palestinians would be wiped out. There is no "inevitable" solution to this vast **** ball of complexity so please stop looking like a mug!

war is reality especially in a world where america exists and wages wars left right and centre, but thats another story, all i am saying is if palestinians aren't gonna fight for themselves they can forget about statehood, becuase no one else is gonna fight for them, you are so out of touch with reality that its beyond belief, you can live in you airy fairy world where you think you can kiss and make up but the reality is you have to fight for your right.

you post such *******s that i dont know what your 'issue' is, anyways i asked my question first so answer mine then i'll answer your 'issues', liek you 'issues' fukin ****e me up.

but do you not think that rather than being the self appointed saviour who is willing to shout about what needs to be done whilst he munches his crisps and watches the news, you should not just sit back, shut up and join in the sometimes tedious but nonetheless interesting discussion on the whole thing in this thread?

is that your so called 'issue', becuase your issue is senseless if thats what it is, i might much on my crisps, but i rather munch and be in touch with the reality of the situation, unlike you who is so out of touch with reailty and lives in an airy fairy world, thinking kissng and making up with the jews will rid the west bank of the jews.

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 2363

Cyanohydrin

13

Original post by In2deep

I've been to America and trust me, it's not the place you would feel safe walking around in Islamic attire. I'm not saying you'll get attacked or anything but you'll definitely get some awkward looks and a few words..

Having said that, as a Muslim, I would have said something similar to what the woman wearing the Niqab ( I highly doubt even a single woman in the whole of the USA wears a Burqa') said, if that is even a true story.

did you have any incidents in the US then?

Reply 2364

Original post by In2deep

Yes, relatively speaking that is.

I find it sad anyone would stigmatize you for it, there is far to much ignorance in the world.

That or maybe having been to Arabic countries a number of times I find these things more normal, than someone in the US or UK who has never seen it before.

Reply 2365

Original post by Aj12

I find it sad anyone would stigmatize you for it, there is far to much ignorance in the world.

That or maybe having been to Arabic countries a number of times I find these things more normal, than someone in the US or UK who has never seen it before.

It's fine in the UK, no problem at all. People are shocked when I tell them the UK is by far the most tolerant society I've ever been to and I've been to many countries in the world (thankfully)..

Ironically, it's easier being a Muslim in the UK than it is in UAE or Egypt, that's a whole different story though and we're side-tracking this thread :colondollar:

Reply 2366

Original post by In2deep

It's fine in the UK, no problem at all. People are shocked when I tell them the UK is by far the most tolerant society I've ever been to and I've been to many countries in the world (thankfully)..

Ironically, it's easier being a Muslim in the UK than it is in UAE or Egypt, that's a whole different story though and we're side-tracking this thread :colondollar:

Yeah would't want to distract people from their discussion of who is going to fight in Palestine lol

There we go this will keep it on topic

Palestinian Fatah-Hamas reconciliation talks 'on hold'

Reply 2367

Why are the Israelis so scared about Palestinian state declaration at the UN this September?

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 2368

Original post by In2deep

Why are the Israelis so scared about Palestinian state declaration at the UN this September?

The pre 1967 borders are seen as indefensible to Israel. It would mean were someone to invade, Israel could not have a defense indepth. This would mean they would not be able to call up their reserves or have proper time to form up their army to fight a counter attack.

Reply 2369

Original post by Aj12

The pre 1967 borders are seen as indefensible to Israel. It would mean were someone to invade, Israel could not have a defense indepth. This would mean they would not be able to call up their reserves or have proper time to form up their army to fight a counter attack.

Interesting, any sources? I would love to read a whole article on this. Also, if the 1967 borders are indefensible and hence unacceptable, what do they propose? The 1967 Borders are pretty generous if we ignore the whole Jerusalem issue, it would mean that even with "Land Swaps", the border is still indefensible right?

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 2370

Original post by In2deep

Interesting, any sources? I would love to read a whole article on this. Also, if the 1967 borders are indefensible and hence unacceptable, what do they propose? The 1967 Borders are pretty generous if we ignore the who Jerusalem issue, it would even mean that with "Land Swaps", the border is still indefensible right?

This is a summary of a very long report written by a group of Israel ex military personnel about Israel security and the borders.

They generally propose a completely toothless Palestinian state, with Israeli controlled airspace among other things. No military or anything

http://www.jcpa.org/text/security/executive_summary.pdf

This is the report in full.

http://www.jcpa.org/text/security/fullstudy.pdf

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 2371

CombineHarvester

16

Original post by In2deep

Interesting, any sources? I would love to read a whole article on this. Also, if the 1967 borders are indefensible and hence unacceptable, what do they propose? The 1967 Borders are pretty generous if we ignore the whole Jerusalem issue, it would mean that even with "Land Swaps", the border is still indefensible right?

The idea that the West Bank/Gaza could produce any viable threat to Israel is nonsense. Israel has the most powerful military in the region and a Palestinian state would have the weakest. A demilitarised border would be sufficient.

Reply 2372

thisisnew

11

Original post by In2deep

Why are the Israelis so scared about Palestinian state declaration at the UN this September?

I think one of the main problems is that they [Hamas] are attempting to worm their way to legitimacy without first renouncing "resistance" (or violence and terror).

I think the members of the UN have reason to be scared about the precedent this may set:

"There are 37 recognized and recognizable secessionist movements in Africa. There are 65 in Asia, including 13 in Burma, five in China (Uighurs, Tibetans and Mongolians among them). Russia straddles continents and faces five secessionist movements in Asian Russia and 13 more in European Russia, including Chechens. The rest of Europe has more than 50, including 18 in Italy and nine in Spain. France has four irredentist movements, four secessionist movements, five autonomist movements and several movements to change the borders of Departments. There is one each in Poland, the Netherlands, Romania and Switzerland. Parties in Greenland want to secede from Denmark and in Puerto Rico they want to secede from the United States - which also has American Indian, Southern and Texan movements to secede, as well as one in Manhattan and one in New York State. The Miskito Indians want to secede from Nicaragua and Chiapas from Mexico. French and British colonies in the Caribbean and Oceana have separatist movements."

The whole unity thing has predictably been a farce so far. Abbas and Meshaal didn't personally sign the deal according to some reports, there were disagreements about who was speaking/seating, Hamas complaining about Fatah-held prisoners, Hamas rejecting Fayyad, Hamas saying Fatah members are welcome in Gaza but they might get arrested and even Hamas themselves are having a bit of an internal dispute. And as posted talks have been postponed "indefinitely" and the same will probably happen to the already postponed elections. Don't be surprised if nearer to September you see a few rockets drop into Israel (2 have been fired in the past few weeks) in order to get them talking about Israel again.

I don't see how they can govern a sovereign state in their current situation and it would be ludicrous for the UN, a supposedly respectable and sensible international body, to grant sovereignty to a state that may well feature an uncompromising Hamas at the helm.

There is some good news however. A new poll (http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=398523) has shown that Palestinians prefer Fayyad and Abbas with 61% wanting to follow the policies and peace agenda of Abbas as opposed to 18% for Hamas policies amongst other things. Overall support for Hamas has continued to decline thankfully though one thing bothers me and that's the popularity of Marwan Barghouti who lead the first and second intifada & supposedly founded the Tanzim militia who were responsible for several attacks including the sniping of a baby. It's slightly alarming that he's seen as the front runner to take over from Abbas :tongue:

Reply 2373

Original post by thisisnew

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Right.When Palestine goes to the UN will the vote be should the state of Palestine be brought into existence?

Or will it be some sort of lukewarm idea where they say we all support the idea of a state for Palestine in the near future?

Reply 2374

thisisnew

11

Original post by Aj12

Right.When Palestine goes to the UN will the vote be should the state of Palestine be brought into existence?

Or will it be some sort of lukewarm idea where they say we all support the idea of a state for Palestine in the near future?

Hmm need to look into it actually. If they go to the General Assembly seeking recognition of a Palestinian state then it will be a non binding resolution if I'm not mistaken and there's no veto power in the GA (in essence a convenient way for a large amount of states to recognize them). If however they are seeking to become an actual member of the UN then they'll need a recommendation from the security council where the US can veto.

With that said you can still become a proper state without being an actual member so I think that's the route they'll be taking but it will be down to individual states as to whether they recognize the state or not as is the case with recognition of Israel.

(I might be wrong but this is my understanding of it)

Reply 2375

Original post by thisisnew

Hmm need to look into it actually. If they go to the General Assembly seeking recognition of a Palestinian state then it will be a non binding resolution if I'm not mistaken and there's no veto power in the GA (in essence a convenient way for a large amount of states to recognize them). If however they are seeking to become an actual member of the UN then they'll need a recommendation from the security council where the US can veto.

With that said you can still become a proper state without being an actual member so I think that's the route they'll be taking but it will be down to individual states as to whether they recognize the state or not as is the case with recognition of Israel.

(I might be wrong but this is my understanding of it)

I'll be interested to see the actual wording of the resolution in September

Reply 2376

CombineHarvester

16

The idea that these territories would 'secede' from Israel is exactly what's wrong with the anti-Palestine brigade.

Reply 2377

Original post by thisisnew

x

Firstly, there is a huge distinction we have to make, all those examples you mentioned are people within a state, the meaning of "secession" is the act of withdrawing from a political entity (in this context). while Palestine on the other hand is not part of Israel and Palestinians do not have anybody to speak on behalf of them on the political stage, at least not a organisation/party that has an equal footing with the Israeli government.

Secondly, would you accept the formation of a Palestinian State if either Hamas renounce violence and recognise Israel or Fatah goes ahead as the single leader of Palestine to the UN and forms a government?

Original post by Aj12

Right.When Palestine goes to the UN will the vote be should the state of Palestine be brought into existence?

Or will it be some sort of lukewarm idea where they say we all support the idea of a state for Palestine in the near future?

I think it's the former. There will be a vote and by the looks of it, it will get a seat at the UN. More than 130 nations already recognise Palestine.

Reply 2378

thisisnew

11

Original post by In2deep

Firstly, there is a huge distinction we have to make, all those examples you mentioned are people within a state, the meaning of "secession" is the act of withdrawing from a political entity (in this context). while Palestine on the other hand is not part of Israel and Palestinians do not have anybody to speak on behalf of them on the political stage, at least not a organisation/party that has an equal footing with the Israeli government.

Yeah, my bad. The reason I brought them up is because they or some of them arguably have just as much if not more right to statehood than Palestine so if a member who has one or more of these movements votes to recognize Palestine then they'd have little justification to deny such movements the same rights and recognition.

Secondly, would you accept the formation of a Palestinian State if either Hamas renounce violence and recognise Israel or Fatah goes ahead as the single leader of Palestine to the UN and forms a government?

Absolutely. The latter would be preferable but I don't think Hamas or the less moderate factions would be too happy about that... Would probably leader to another Fatah-Hamas conflict but yeah Hamas renouncing violence would be a huge step.

I'm wondering how a sovereign Palestine would affect the refugee issue. Over 90% of the "refugees" in Jordan have citizenship and the "refugees" that reside in Gaza will be citizens of a sovereign Palestine hence not actually refugees although the UNRWA seems determined to keep them that way by applying unique definitions and no real way to lose their refugee status. In fact some 70-80% of the refugees aren't actually refugees but displaced persons. I do however think Israel should be willing to absorb a few hundred thousand (closer to the number of actual original refugees/expelled persons) anyway we'll see times ahead are both worrying and exciting :tongue:

Reply 2379