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The Liverpool FC Society VI

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    (Original post by mar junior)
    i am NOT discrediting any player nor did i say that kenny is the god of managing, i am just saying that for a manager, winning the league with blackburn is not as easy as winning a league with a better club like Manchester united or liverpool. as the quality of players is better,

    I understand football has changed in that players were different and so were tactics however liverpool were still regarded as a top club back then. Shearer, tony gale, shay given and Le saux are very good players. but what happened when danglish left afterwards? they dropped to seventh

    Please read through my whole post instead of picking out phrases and starting full blown arguments about them. also this is a liverpool forum, not a blackburn one. blackburn right now are not title contenders so leave it like that.
    Blackburn spent big money then. They were not a small club. You called the players halfbaked duds, how is that not discrediting them? You also said if Kenny can.... thus putting him on a pedestal, like he performed a miracle.

    Players moved on and the money wasn't invested wisely, like I said, clubs change over time.

    Liverpool right now are not title contenders. You brought Blackburn into the discussion in this forum so don't preach to me about discussing them here.
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    Haha.

    Welcome to the internet.
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    (Original post by Kevmeister)
    Blackburn spent big money then. They were not a small club. You called the players halfbaked duds, how is that not discrediting them? You also said if Kenny can.... thus putting him on a pedestal, like he performed a miracle.

    Players moved on and the money wasn't invested wisely, like I said, clubs change over time.

    Liverpool right now are not title contenders. You brought Blackburn into the discussion in this forum so don't preach to me about discussing them here.
    Ok, maybe i could have used a different phrase to refer to the players. i didnt think you will get so worked up about it. to be honest i do not know much about the 1995 premier league.

    But please, name me seven players in that blackburn squad who were considered above average. and also like it or not it was kennys management skill and tactics that saw blackburn win the 1995 premiership, as seen because when he left, they dropped to seventh. also blackburns team were not exactly full of superstars

    Also how am i putting kenny on a pedastel by saying kenny can, is it not true that whenever a team wins the league, the manager gets credit for it? eg when inter won the treble didnt mourinho get praise and credit? I dont know why you have interpreted that sentence in that way

    Blackburn are not as prestigious as liverpool at the time who had won 18 league titles, And i used blackburn as an example and mentioned their name because Kenny won the league with them, You are the one who decided to start a full blown argument over my choice of words.
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    (Original post by mar junior)
    Ok, maybe i could have used a different phrase to refer to the players. i didnt think you will get so worked up about it. to be honest i do not know much about the 1995 premier league.

    But please, name me seven players in that blackburn squad who were considered above average. and also like it or not it was kennys management skill and tactics that saw blackburn win the 1995 premiership, as seen because when he left, they dropped to seventh. also blackburns team were not exactly full of superstars

    Also how am i putting kenny on a pedastel by saying kenny can, is it not true that whenever a team wins the league, the manager gets credit for it? eg when inter won the treble didnt mourinho get praise and credit? I dont know why you have interpreted that sentence in that way

    Blackburn are not as prestigious as liverpool at the time who had won 18 league titles, And i used blackburn as an example and mentioned their name because Kenny won the league with them, You are the one who decided to start a full blown argument over my choice of words.
    Sutton, Shearer, Flowers, Le Saux, Sherwood, Berg, Wilcox - definitely above average. An argument could be made to include Colin Hendry and possibly a few more, but as you say you don't know much about that time it's pointless, really. You'll no doubt discredit Sutton based on his time at Chelsea, despite it being irrelevant to his time at Blackburn.

    You put Kenny on a pedestal by making out that he won the title with average players, when it is clearly not the case. I think Shearer scored a record amount of goals that season, but he was average before that.....

    Also, Kenny did not leave Blackburn until the end of the following season. And it's a discussion, not an argument.
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    (Original post by mar junior)
    Ok, maybe i could have used a different phrase to refer to the players. i didnt think you will get so worked up about it. to be honest i do not know much about the 1995 premier league.

    But please, name me seven players in that blackburn squad who were considered above average. and also like it or not it was kennys management skill and tactics that saw blackburn win the 1995 premiership, as seen because when he left, they dropped to seventh. also blackburns team were not exactly full of superstars

    Also how am i putting kenny on a pedastel by saying kenny can, is it not true that whenever a team wins the league, the manager gets credit for it? eg when inter won the treble didnt mourinho get praise and credit? I dont know why you have interpreted that sentence in that way

    Blackburn are not as prestigious as liverpool at the time who had won 18 league titles, And i used blackburn as an example and mentioned their name because Kenny won the league with them, You are the one who decided to start a full blown argument over my choice of words.
    Please stop embarrassing yourself and every other Liverpool fan in this thread.

    Yes Kenny did well but Jack Walker spent a shed load of money to bring the title to Blackburn, they were far from a bunch of average players.
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    (Original post by Kevmeister)
    Sutton, Shearer, Flowers, Le Saux, Sherwood, Berg, Wilcox - definitely above average. An argument could be made to include Colin Hendry and possibly a few more, but as you say you don't know much about that time it's pointless, really. You'll no doubt discredit Sutton based on his time at Chelsea, despite it being irrelevant to his time at Blackburn.

    You put Kenny on a pedestal by making out that he won the title with average players, when it is clearly not the case. I think Shearer scored a record amount of goals that season, but he was average before that.....

    Also, Kenny did not leave Blackburn until the end of the following season. And it's a discussion, not an argument.
    After they won the title, Danglish resigned as manager and became director of football. and blackburn came 7th

    And like i said, when a team wins the league managers will get and deserve credit as they are the ones that make the tactics, organise and keep the team together, and signs players. so it is normal to heap praise on a manager for winning a title with a team, if managers were not important why were inter unable to win another treble without mourinho?

    As i am 16 apart from shearer, le saux and some others. i do not know in depth the skill of the others so you got me there. but if they were so good why did they magically finish 7th and around mid table in the following seasons?

    You know if i had chosen another set of words to describe the players, we wouldnt be having this argument/flamewar/discussion. i will be more careful with words from now on...
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    (Original post by AreYouDizzeeBlud_x)
    Lampard has been consistently rubbish for the senior England team, he still does tremendously well for Chelsea.

    I also never compared him to Ronaldo in technical ability, I compared him to Ronaldo in the likelihood that Kenny will do the same as Ferguson and nurture him to get the best out of him which will be the case.

    Also, Lucas did improve under Kenny and it was noticeable. He even came out and said himself in an interview that Kenny had helped him come on leaps and bounds. You can't get a better source than from the person himself. I'm not saying Lucas was rubbish before Kenny took over, he was playing very well, but he did take it to an extra level when Kenny took over, towards the end of the season he was easily one of the best midfielders in the division.
    Yes, score 15 deflections and penalties a season, tremendous.

    Disagree.
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    (Original post by mar junior)
    As i am 16 apart from shearer, le saux and some others. i do not know in depth the skill of the others so you got me there. but if they were so good why did they magically finish 7th and around mid table in the following seasons?
    Thats like asking 'Why didn't United win the treble again in 2000? Why didn't Liverpool win the Champions League again in 2006?'

    Its a ridiculous argument. Teams move on, players falter at different points in their careers. Some will peak whilst others ability drops. Its a complete non argument.
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    Interesting read on Henderson

    Why internationals mean little to Dalglish and LFC

    WHEN Emlyn Hughes climbed the steps of Wembley in May 1978, his beaming, warm smile was the perfect contrast to the cold steel of the European Cup which stood at the summit.

    It was the second time in as many years the two would embrace, and so too Clemence, Neal, Case, Callaghan, McDermott, Fairclough, Heighway and Ray Kennedy. After munching Gladbach in Rome, as the famous banner proclaimed, Club Brugge had been bruised beyond recognition.

    The whole of Europe was watching, and nowhere more attentively than England itself. Liverpool had become the first English side to win two European Cups, and they’d done so back-to-back – the Merseyside club’s own twin towers at the home of English football.

    But as the cup was passed down the line, reacquainting with old friends and meeting new, Hughes could be forgiven for turning his attention elsewhere for one solitary moment.

    The two moments which defined Hughes’ career would come in Italy and England within 12 months of each other, but sandwiched in the middle was a match between the two nations at Wembley.

    As captain of England, Hughes led his country to an impressive 2-0 win over an Italian side containing Dino Zoff, Marco Tardelli and Roberto Bettega – but it wasn’t impressive enough. The two goal victory left Italy needing a mere win against Luxembourg in their final game - an even bigger formality than it would be today - to seal qualification for the 1978 World Cup ahead of England.

    Italy won 3-0. Qualification was confirmed. Bettega would spend the summer in Buenos Aires; Hughes would watch from Barrow-in-Furness.

    A lot has been written about some Liverpool supporters’ Scouse Not English attitude; the apathy for the English national side is easily understandable. One thing that cannot be contested, though, is how much players care.

    Hughes would have wanted to lead his country out in Argentina and with that lead Clemence, Neal, McDermott and Thompson there too. There would have been no better way for Hughes to end the most glorious 12 months of his career.

    But his 12 months ended at Wembley. While Dalglish and Souness would enrol in Ally MacLeod’s Tartan Army, eleven Englishmen who helped Liverpool conquer Europe would stay at home.

    Liverpool Football Club’s relationship with the England national squad has always been tumultuous. The combination of Ian Callaghan, Tommy Smith and Jamie Carragher were capped fewer times than Phil Neville; John Barnes, Robbie Fowler and Steven Gerrard failed to reproduce their club form at international level, much to the chagrin of the media.

    Given the apparent lack of correlation between performances for club and country, supporters’ reticence for the club to invest in English talent is peculiar. To pigeon-hole any signing with nationality is peculiar enough.

    The signing of Jordan Henderson from Sunderland is an exciting one. Young, determined, versatile and professional, Henderson appears the type of player that will thrive under the guidance of Kenny Dalglish. He can tackle, pass, move and shoot – all at the age of 21; all components of a successful Premier League midfielder.

    Yet there’s a quiet voice of dissention amongst Liverpool supporters. Not because of the player himself, but rather his nationality. Henderson’s signing seems indicative of a more English-based policy from the football club, displeasing those who have become accustomed to a more continentally assembled squad.

    It’s a waste of time signing English players, some claim, because it’s the worst England side since the 1950s. Others cite the U21 European Championship currently being held in Denmark as a deterrent towards English talent.

    Not even the most jingoistic England fan would deny Spain, France and Germany possess more technique, flair and mental toughness.

    But Liverpool are not managed by Fabio Capello or Stuart Pearce; nor do their supporters bemoan every misplaced pass or every shot dragged wide. Playing for Liverpool Football Club and England are two separate entities and require two separate mentalities.

    Fifteen Englishmen, who possess 349 caps between them, started in Liverpool’s four European Cup finals, yet England only advanced beyond the first round of an international tournament once between 1976 and 1984 – failing to qualify three times. While Liverpool conquered Europe, England crumbled.

    Traditionally, Liverpool’s worst signings have been those based on international outings. Babb and Diao were bought after an excellent World Cup, while Diouf and Dimoede wowed for Senegal and France.

    If the club’s scouting network emphasised internationals in recent times, the profligacy of Fernando Torres or the devilry of Luis Suarez would have made neither a Liverpool player.

    But such are the complexities of acquiring new talent for a football club. It’s not as simple as indentifying a player, purchasing him and slotting him into the side like a mechanic finding a cog to fix a car.

    Take Jordan Henderson. Opinions on him have been based on 180 minutes of football, playing a style he won’t be playing, in a position he won’t be playing, with players he won’t be playing with. Liverpool, Dalglish, Clarke and Comolli know this, because they’ve watched him as many times as a Stadium of Light season ticket holder.

    When signing Henderson, they’ll have thought of his potential with Gerrard playing central – not with Gerrard wide left like he was for England against France in November. They’ll have imagined him with Lucas, Meireles, Suarez and Kuyt, not Rose, Mancienne and Cleverley, as he was against Spain U21s.

    For the first time in years, there’s structure and stability to both the club’s hierarchy and transfer dealings. No longer must the club sell their best players and buy poorer replacements to finance debt repayments; no longer will ineptitude at the highest level scupper plans for quality players.

    The one policy of this Liverpool is simple: purchase players who will improve Liverpool Football Club. Their nationality is irrelevant – the signings of Suarez, with reported interest in Zapata proves that – as is their current club, league or fee. It is not for the supporters to decide if those factors are suitable – if they’re suitable to Dalglish, then they’re suitable for Liverpool Football Club.

    It’s only when a player pulls on a red shirt that Liverpool supporters should be interested, because that’s all a player should be judged upon.

    Everything else is irrelevant, and it’s safe to assume everything else will be irrelevant if Jordan Henderson lifting the European Cup at Wembley in 2013 is even a remote possibility, regardless of whether England are heading to Brazil or not.
    http://thekop.liverpoolfc.tv/_Why-in...94/173471.html
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    (Original post by AreYouDizzeeBlud_x)
    Thats like asking 'Why didn't United win the treble again in 2000? Why didn't Liverpool win the Champions League again in 2006?'

    Its a ridiculous argument. Teams move on, players falter at different points in their careers. Some will peak whilst others ability drops. Its a complete non argument.
    No its like asking "why didnt blackburn put up another title challenge like the one they did last year, why did they finish around seventh after Kenny left"

    For example manchester united also have been very consistent, since the start of the league they havent finished out of the top 3, because of the playing staff and because Fergie is a legendary manager. even though players like giggs, neville, scholes, etc have grown old they are still very good first team players. the same applies with that blackburn team. why didnt they finish in or around the top 4
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    (Original post by mar junior)
    No its like asking "why didnt blackburn put up another title challenge like the one they did last year, why did they finish around seventh after Kenny left"

    For example manchester united also have been very consistent, since the start of the league they havent finished out of the top 3, because of the playing staff and because Fergie is a legendary manager. even though players like giggs, neville, scholes, etc have grown old they are still very good first team players. the same applies with that blackburn team. why didnt they finish in or around the top 4
    So much fail in one post :facepalm:
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    To be completely honest Who cares about Blackburn anyways, theyre pants to be honest. and anyways, they were and always will be rubbish and relegation strugglers. they fluked it and won the league, so now that we got that out of the way stop fighting about it and lets talk about liverpool
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    (Original post by Joburger)
    So much fail in one post :facepalm:
    If there is "so much fail" as you put it point it out? or did you not read what else i wrote

    incoherent tw*t extroardinairrre....

    To be completely honest Who cares about Blackburn anyways, theyre pants to be honest. and anyways, they were and always will be rubbish and relegation strugglers. they fluked it and won the league, so now that we got that out of the way stop fighting about it and lets talk about liverpool
    however according to these lot, the blackburn side of 1995 was like a mixture of the current barcelona side plus the brazillian world cup winning team with shearer as villa, le saux as messi, etc...
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    (Original post by mar junior)
    If there is "so much fail" as you put it point it out? or did you not read what else i wrote

    incoherent tw*t extroardinairrre....



    however according to these lot, the blackburn side of 1995 was like a mixture of the current barcelona side plus the brazillian world cup winning team with shearer as villa, le saux as messi, etc...
    Messi still has a lot to achieve to reach Le Saux's level.









    :teehee:
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    Ahhhhhh I see there's a bellend in here who believes football started in 1992...'since the start of the league' you can tell he's 16.

    Also, Dirk Kuyt is not average. There's a reason why 3 straight managers for us have picked him consistently, and there's a reason why he's a regular starter for his national team as well over players many would consider to be better than him. He ain't world class, but he's a very good and important player. Average, he ain't. If you don't care how many goals he scores for us then you're a blert, cos that's his job remember?!
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    (Original post by ChrisWilliams)
    Ahhhhhh I see there's a bellend in here who believes football started in 1992...'since the start of the league' you can tell he's 16.

    Also, Dirk Kuyt is not average. There's a reason why 3 straight managers for us have picked him consistently, and there's a reason why he's a regular starter for his national team as well over players many would consider to be better than him. He ain't world class, but he's a very good and important player. Average, he ain't. If you don't care how many goals he scores for us then you're a blert, cos that's his job remember?!
    Haha yes! Brilliant
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    http://yfrog.com/hs6vfpsnj
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    I think the Downing transfer is inevitable, but its whether we can agree a price with Villa.

    Downing wants to go, but Villa are reluctant to sell, especially with Young going.

    With two-years left on his contract, we might have to pay a bit over the odds to land him.
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    (Original post by milan5baros)
    I think the Downing transfer is inevitable, but its whether we can agree a price with Villa.

    Downing wants to go, but Villa are reluctant to sell, especially with Young going.

    With two-years left on his contract, we might have to pay a bit over the odds to land him.
    He only has a year left doesn't he?
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    (Original post by L18)
    He only has a year left doesn't he?
    Nah, two year left on Downing's deal.
Updated: January 14, 2012
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