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My Personal Views On Homosexuality
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Original post by Tommyjw
Paedeophilia is not found, as far as i am aware, in any other species, whether it be acts or not. Certainly nowhere close to the extent homosexuality is found if it is. This makes one natural in that sense and the other not. Very simple.
It is natural for the simple fact that it occurs naturally in humans. It is irrelevant whether other animals do it. We are animals, and it occurs in this species.
However, the following are excerpts from Bruce Bagemihl (1998) Biological Exuberance - Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity which attest to the prevalence of homosexuality, incest, paedophilia and child sexual activity in nature.
Heterosexual
Bonobo: our closest living relative with DNA 99.4% similar to humans "Both adult males and females interact sexually with adolescents and juveniles (three-to-nine-year-olds). In fact, young females go through a five-to-six-year period sometimes referred to as ADOLESCENT STERILITY (although no pathology is involved) during which they actively participate in heterosexual mating (often with adults) but never get pregnant. Sexual behavior between adults and infants of both sexes is common - about a third of the time it is initiated by the infant and may involve genital rubbing and full copulatory postures (including penetration of an adult female by a male infant). (Biological Exuberance - 274)
Chimpanzees: DNA 98% similar to humans: Although incestuous matings between adults are not common, mothers engage in sexual activity with their infant son fairly often. Young females typically experience a one-to-three-year period of ADOLESCENT STERILITY after their first menstruation, during which time they mate heterosexually without conceiving. (Biological Exuberance - 278)
Gorilla: "Both males and females also engage in masturbation, and younger animals frequently participate in nonpenetrative sexual activity. Mountings of the latter type are usually incestuous, involving siblings, half siblings, or (more rarely) parents and their offspring (or their siblings' offspring)." (Biological Exuberance - 283)
Orangutan: "Mothers frequently engage in incestuous contact with their infants, manually or orally stimulation the penis or clitoris (or being stimulated by the infant), and may even mount the infants." (Biological Exuberance - 287)
Gibbons (White-handed gibbon and Siamang): "In one case, a Siamang father was observed fondling his adolescent daughter's vulva with his fingers while her younger brother licked her clitoris. Mothers may invite their juvenile sons - as young as four to five years - to lick and groom their genitals (usually with no hostile reaction from the father)." (Biological Exuberance - 291)
Langur and Nilgiri Langur (Presbytis entellus and Presbytis johnii): "Females also occasionally mount males, while adult-juvenile heterosexual interactions also occur." (Biological Exuberance - 296)
Japanese Macaque: "Females in some troops frequently form consortships with sexually immature (preadolescent) males;..." [...] "In some troops, a unique form of "baby-sitting" has developed. Although males in this species do not typically participate in parenting, high-ranking males in some populations take care of infants that are not their own for short periods. They groom, carry, embrace, and protect the infants, usually with the consent of their mothers. [...] ,a few male caretakers interact sexually with infants (usually females), masturbating themselves while carrying them or even thrusting against them. (Biological Exuberance - 305)
Rhesus Macaque: "In some cases, though, "aunts" engage in aggressive or sexual interactions with the infants as well and may even try to "kidnap" another female's baby." (Biological Exuberance - 310)
Crested-Black Macaque (Macaca Nigra): "Infant and very young male Crested Blacks often mount adult females, performing pelvic thrusts and even achieving penetration. " (Biological Exuberance - 322)
Savanna Baboon, Hamadryas Baboon: "Sexual activity in Baboons also sometimes includes copulation with partners that are not optimal for breeding: adult male Savanna Baboons and adult female Hamadryas Baboons may mate with juvenile animals, incestous matings are common in inbred troops [...]" (Biological Exuberance - 327)
Tamarin and Marmosets: "Both male and female Lion Tamarins (Leontophitecus rosalia) sometimes mount their own offspring of both sexes, including adolescent and younger individuals. Approximately 1 percent of mounting activity in Common Marmosets (Callithrix jacchus) occurs among adolescent and younger males." (Biological Exuberance - 334)
Dolphin: "Young dolphins are sexually precocious, and incestuous copulation have been observed between males a few months and their mothers." (p. 346) [...] "In captivity, "baby-sitting" males have been observed harassing mothers, trying to "kidnap" their calves, and even behaving sexually towards the infants "including trying to mate with them). (Biological Exuberance - 347)
Orca: "while heterosexual interactions also occur between adults and adolescents (of both sexes) and youngsters (juveniles as well as calves)." (Biological Exuberance - 351)
Northen Fur Seal (Callorhinus Ursinus): "male Northern Fur Seals have also been known to attempt copulations with pups of their own species." (Biological Exuberance - 369)
White-tailed Dear (Odocoileus virginianus) and Mule or Black-Tailed Deer: "Incestuous activity - including fawns mounting their mothers - also occurs in these species." (Biological Exuberance - 381)
Wapiti, Elk, or Red Deer and Barasingha (Cervus elaphus) or Swamp Deer (Cervus duvauceli): "Sexual behavior by calves - including adult-calf interactions - also occurs in these species. Wapiti/Red Deer calves sometimes mount adults (including their mothers, in Red Deer), while female Red Deer occasionally mount calves." (Biological Exuberance - 385)
Caribou or Reindeer (Rangifer tarandus) and Moose (Alces Alces): "Males of booth species sometimes try to mount calves [...]" (Biological Exuberance - 389)
Giraffe: "Giraffes engage in a few forms of nonprocreative heterosexual activity as well: younger females in heat occasionally mount male calves, while calves sometimes mount their mothers." (Biological Exuberance - 393)
Blackbuck (Gazell, Antilope cervicapra): "Female Blackbucks sometimes engage in nonreproductive mounts of fawns or young animals." (Biological Exuberance - 404)
Bighorn Sheep (Ovis canadensis), Thinhorn or Dall's Sheep (Ovis dalli) and Asiatic Mouflon or Urial (Ovis orientalis): "Rams also sometimes mount lambs [...]" (Biological Exuberance - 408)
Musk-Ox and Mountain Goat: "Even during breeding years, some heterosexual courtship activity in both Muskoxen and Mountain Goats may be directed by males toward nonprocreating individuals such as yearlings and calves. [...] Females in this species have been observed mounting adult males and courting, mounting, or being mounted by their own yearlings or kids." (Biological Exuberance - 412)
Plains Zebra (Equus quagga) and Takhi or Przewalski's horse (Equus przewalskii): "In addition, male Plains Zebras often try to mate with unrelated juvenile females that are not yet sexually mature. In fact, stallions - alone or in groups of up to 18 at a time - may "abduct" adolescent females by separating and chasing them from their family groups, after which they will try to copulate with the young mares. Interestingly, the female shows the behavioral signs of being "in heat" before she reaches the age when she can actually conceive; usually an "abducted" mare returns to her family group after her period of "heat" is finished. [...] Although Takhi males are not as involved in parenting as mares, a stallion may act as a "surrogate mother" to his own foal if it has lost its mother, even allowing the foal to "suckle" on his penis sheath." (Biological Exuberance - 420)
Llama: "Adult males occasionally copulate with yearling females, who are probably not old enough to breed." (Biological Exuberance - 426)
Elephant (Afrikanska and Asiatiska): "In addition, males sometimes try to mount juvenile animals, who squeal in protest until a female intervenes." (Biological Exuberance - 430)
Laughing Hyena: "Some males, unable to copulate, engage in a form of "masturbation" in which they thrust their penis in the air and spontaneously ejaculate; others have been seen mounting cubs." (Biological Exuberance - 447)
Rufous Bettong or Rat Kangaroo (Aepyprymnus rufescens): "For example, adult males generally make more sexual approaches to juvenile females than to sexually adult females." (Biological Exuberance - 454)
Fat-Tailed Dunnart (Sminthopsis Crassicadudata): "Adult male Fat-Tailed Dunnarts sometimes display sexual interest in juvenile females, and incestuous matings have also been recorded." (Biological Exuberance - 459)
Red Squirrel (Tamaiasciuris hudsonicus) and Gray Squirrel (Sciurus carolinensis): "Juveniles, of both species often participate in mounting or sexual chases, for example, including incestuous activity between siblings or mothers being mounted by their offspring." (Biological Exuberance - 463)
Hoary Marmot (Marmot caligata): "Sexual activity also occurs among juveniles, including mounting of adults." (Biological Exuberance - 466)
Dwarf Cavy (Microcavia australis), Cui (Galea musteloides) and Aperea (Cavia aperea): "As mentioned above, sexual behavior between adults and juveniles is widespread in these species. About a quarter of all courtship and sexual interactions in Dwarf Cavies involve adult males and juveniles, while adult male Cuis also chin-rump follow juvenile females as young as two weeks old. In addition, juvenile Cuis of both sexes sometimes mount both adult males and females, including their own mothers. [...] Adult males in two other species of Cavies, the Mocó or Rock Cavy (Kerodon Rupestris) and the Préa (Galea Spixii), also sometimes court juvenile males, and youngsters mount adults of both sexes as well." (Biological Exuberance - 469)
European Shag (Phalacrocorax Aristotelis): "In a few cases, adult male Shags have been observed mating with their own chicks [...]" (Biological Exuberance - 507)
Tasmanian Native Hen (tribonyx mortierii): "[...] about 10 percent of copulation involve parents mounting their own offspring, including young chicks." (Biological Exuberance - 521)
Ring-Billed Gull (Larus delawarensis) and Common or Mew Gull (Larus canus): "[...] and about 5 percent of adults court and mount chicks. Most of this activity involves females behaving incestuously with their own offspring, including full copulatory REVERSE MOUNTS of young birds. Mounted chicks may be as young as two weeks old, and they usually collapse under the weight of the adult mounting them and cry out in distress. Some individuals appear to be "habitual molesters" in that they repeatedly interact sexually with chicks, including their own." (Biological Exuberance - 547)
Herring Gull (Larus Arentatus): "Several forms of heterosexual family abuse and adult-juvenile violence have also been documented in Herring Gulls. Males sometimes incestuously mount their own chicks and have even been seen breaking and eating their own eggs." (Biological Exuberance - 555)
Black-Headed Gull (Larus Ridibundus): "In addition, males occasionally try to mate with chicks (including their own), who may be only a few days old; juveniles also mount each other)." (Biological Exuberance - 559)
Same-sex sexual activity
"And in the majority of cases, male and female homosexualities present their own unique blends of behaviors and characteristics that defy any simplistic categorization - such as Bonobos, where sexual penetration occurs in female rather than male same-sex activity, where sexual interactions between adults and adolescents are a prominent feature of female interactions, and where males do not form strongly bonded relationships with each other the way females do, but engage in less homosexual activity overall and more affectionate activity such as openmouthed kissing." (Biological Exuberance - 30)
Bonobo: "GG-rubbing occurs among females of all ages, from adolescent to very old, but if an older and a younger female are interacting, often the younger female will be on top. (p. 271) [...] In addition, when new females (usually adolescents) join a troop, they often pair up with an older female with whom they have most of their sexual and affectionate interactions. These bond need not be exclusive - either party may have sex with other females or males - but such mentorlike pairings can last for a year or more until the newcomer is fully integrated into the troop. [...] Manual stimulation of the genitals by a partner also occurs: typically an adolescent male spreads his legs and presents his erect penis to an adult male, who takes the shaft in his hand and caresses it with up-and-down movements." (Biological Exuberance - 273)
Gorilla: "There is often intense competition among the males for "preferred" partners - often the younger males - and older, higher ranking males frequently "guard" their favorite males and fight to protect them from the advances of other males." (Biological Exuberance - 281)
White-Handed Gibbon (Hylobates lar) and Siamang (Hylobates syndactylus): "Within their nuclear family groups, male Gibbons sometimes engage in homosexual activities with each other. This incestuous activity often takes place between adolescent or younger male and his father (or stepfather, if his parents have divorced and re-paired); in Siamangs it may also occur between brothers." (Biological Exuberance - 289)
Hanuman Langur (Presbytis entellus) and Nilgiri Langur (Presbytis Langur): "All females participate freely in homosexual mounting, including lactating, pregnant, menstruating, ovulating, and nonovulating females. This behavior is especially common among mothers, who have developed a special "baby-sitting" system: they transfer their young to other individuals in the troop (usually other females but sometimes males) for a short time (a similar pattern is found in Nilgiri Langurs). This allows them to engage in homosexual (and other) activites. Most mounting between females occurs among adults, through some involves adults with juveniles (up to four years old), usually with the younger female mounting the older one. Altough most homosexual participants are unrelated, some mountings are incestous, mostly between half sisters (about 27 percent of all lesbian mounts) and more rarely, between mother and daughter (about 1 percent of mounts); heterosexual matings are virtually never incestuous." (Biological Exuberance - 294-295)
Japanese Macaque (Macaca fuscata): "Homosexual pairings occur among females of all ages, from adolescents to the very old, and sometimes an adult female will pair with a pubescent female. Interestingly, an incest taboo is in effect for homosexual but not heterosexual courtships: females never choose close relatives (mothers, sisters, daughters, granddaugthers, first cousins) as partners, whereas brother-sister and mother-son consorts do occasionally occur. Aunts and nieces, however, do not generally recognize each other as kin in this species, and so they sometimes consort together." (Biological Exuberance - 303)
Crab-Eating Macaque (Macata fascicularis): "Males can also develop intense sexual relationships with one another, especially between older and younger males. In one such pair observed in captivity, affectionate embraces frequently led to sexual arousal and homosexual mounting, often accompanied by excited lip-smacking or crooning sounds; the male being mounted sometimes even turned his head to kiss his partner during a mount." (Biological Exuberance - 317)
Pig Tailed Macaque (Macaca nemestrina): "Some same-sex mountings is incestuous, e.g., between mother and daughter or siblings of either sex." (Biological Exuberance - 321)
Crested Black Macaque (Macaca nigra): "Younger males often mount older ones in this species." (Biological Exuberance - 321)
"Baboon" (other species): "Among the Patas Monkeys (Erythrocebus patas), adolescent and younger males often fondle and nuzzles the scrotum and genitals of adult males." (Biological Exuberance - 328)
(Common) Squirrel Monkey (Saimiri sciureus): "Homosexual mounting sometimes occurs between male Squirrel Monkeys, especially younger individuals or between an older and younger (adult) partner; adult males also perform the genital display to each other." (Biological Exuberance - 332)
Lion Tamarins (Leontopithecus rosalia) and White-fronted Capuchin Monkeys (Cebus Albifrons): "Both male and female Lion Tamarins (Leontopithecus rosalia) sometimes mount their own offspring of both sexes, including adolescents and younger individuals. Approximately 1 percent of mounting activity in Common Mamosets (Callithrix Jacchus) occurs among adolescent and younger males (brother living in the same family group). In White-fronted Capuchin Monkeys (Cebus Albifrons), young males occasionally suck and fondle the scrotum of older males, while homosexual activity among females (including mounting) also occurs in Brown Capuchins (C. apella) and Weeper Capuchins (C. olivaceous)." (Biological Exuberance - 334)
Verreaux's Sifaka (Propithecus Verreauxi): "Male Verreaux's Sifakas sometimes mount other males during the mating season. The mounted animal - usually a younger adult or adolescent male - often snaps at the mounter and tries to wriggle free (as do females trying to escape from unwelcome heterosexual advances)." (Biological Exuberance - 336)
Bottlenose Dolphin (Tursiops truncatus) and Spinner Dolphin (Stenella lingirostris): "If there is an age difference between male partners, either may penetrate the other, and Bottlenose adolescents have even been observed penetrating much older males." (Biological Exuberance - 343)
Orca (Orcinus orca): "Altough males of all ages participate in homosexual activities, this behaviour is most prevalent among "adolescent" Orcas (sexually mature individuals 12-25 years old) More than three quarters of all sessions involve males who are more than five years apart in age, altough age-mates also interact together (especially among adolescents)." (Biological Exuberance - 350)
Gray Seal (Halichoerus grypus) and Northern Elephant Seal (Mirounga angustirostris): "Those males who have completed their molt often roll around in pairs near the water and mount each other; bulls of all ages participate in this activity. Both adolescent and younger adult Northern Elephant Seal bulls also engage in homosexual mounting during the molt period. This occurs in shallow waters near the shore, often as part of extended bouts of harmless playfighting among clusters of males. [...] Adult males do not participate in this activity. However, they do sometimes mount younger adolescent and juvenile males (two to four years old). Typically the older male approaches the younger male at rest, moving up alongside him and sometimes placing his front flipper over his back in the position characteristic of heterosexual copulations. Usually the younger male struggles to escape, and the mounter may try to subdue him by pressing or bouncing his neck down on top of him or biting his neck. The older male may have an erection and attempt to penetrate the younger male, but he rarely succeeds. Altough they prefer juveniles or adolescents, a few bulls also try to copulate with much younger animals, such as weaned pups of both sexes (who strongly resist their advances)." (Biological Exuberance - 361)
Australian Sea Lion (Neophoca cinerea) and New zealand Sea Lion (Phocarctos hookeri): "All age groups participate, altough there is often an age difference between the two males, with the younger male typically mounting the older one (especially in New Zealand Sea Lions)." (Biological Exuberance - 367 - 368)
Walrus (Odobenus Rosmarus): "Typically a younger male displays to an older one, and courting males often situate themselves in the water near a favorite cliff face, boulder, or rock formation at the water's edge. The spectacular display consists of inflation of the throat pouches - often preceded by head bowing - interspersed with dives by one or both males, and an incredible series of vocalizations that form a courtship "song". (p. 371) [...] Although most homosexual behaviour is confined to the summer haul-outs, younger males sometimes also mount adults or other younger males during the breeding season. Groups of younger Walruses may crowd around an older male and roll on top of him; in addition, an adult male occasionally sings his courtship songs to a group of younger males or is accompanied by a younger attendant male while he sings. Often, his companion surfaces and dives in synchrony with him. This behavior, known as SHADOWING, occurs regardless of whether the adult is courting a female. [...] During breeding season, up to a third of mounting activity may take place between younger males or between adult and younger males, and 2-19 percent of singing males have a younger male companion "shadowing" them." (Biological Exuberance - 372)
White-Tailed Deer (Odocoileus virginianus): "Adult male White-tailed Deer sometimes mount each other, as do yearling males (especially during the nonbreeding season); occasionally a younger male mounts an older one during this activity." (Biological Exuberance - 379)
Wapiti, Elk, or Red Deer (Cervus elaphus) and Barasingha or Swamp Deer (Cervus duvauceli): "Usually the two animals engaging in same-sex activity are fully grown adults, but in male Wapiti homosexual mounting may occur between adult bulls and spikehorns (yearlings whose antlers are spikes, having yet to develop prongs). Red Deer yearlings also participate in same-sex activity including occasional incestuous homosexual mountings by females of their mothers." (Biological Exuberance - 383 - 384)
Caribou or Reindeer (Rangifer tarandus) and Moose (Alces alces): "Caribou sometimes mount each other, as do younger males, while yearling Moose have been observed trying to mount adult bulls. In addition, bull Moose sometimes associate with younger male companions." (Biological Exuberance - 388)
Pronghorn (Antilocapra americana): "Males of all age groups participate in homosexual courtship and mounting, although adult males usually direct their attentions to adolescent males. Mounting between males sometimes occurs during sparring or play-fighting as well." (Biological Exuberance - 394)
Bighorn Sheep (Ovis canadensis) and Thinhorn or Dall's Sheep (Ovis dalli): "Typically an older, higher ranking male will court a male younger than him, using a sequence of stylized movements." (Biological Exuberance - 406)
Mountain Goat (Oreamnos americanus): "Adult male Mountain Goats court younger (yearling) males, again using the species typical heterosexual behavior patterns: the courting male approaches the other in a crouching position, creeping on his stomach with his head stretched forward (a posture referred to as the LOW-STRETCH). He may also flick his tongue in and out of his mouth while making soft bussing sound, jerk his head sideways, and attempt to lick the other male's flanks. Typically the yearling male responds aggressively to the courting adult. Adult males occasionally perform this display toward other adults as well. In addition, yearling females sometimes mount their own mothers. [...] In contrast, yearling Mountain Goats that are courted by older males are primarily heterosexuals, since they reject most same-sex advances." (Biological Exuberance - 411)
African Elephant (Loxodonta africana) and Asiatic Elephant (Elephas maximas): "Homosexual mating lasts about the same lenght as heterosexual mating, generally less than a minute, altough one male may mount another several times in succession. Both older bulls and younger males participate in this activity. [...] Male Elephants also form "companionships" usually composed of an older bull and an attendant younger male (in contrast, there are no long-lasting heterosexual bonds in these species). In African Elephants, the younger male often helps the older one by guarding him or pulling down branches for him; in other cases, the older bull may help a younger male (or vice versa) who is injured or suffering from blindness of paralysis. The two males are constant companions and generally isolated from other Elephants; occasionally, an older bull will have two attendants. Among Asiatic Elephants, such male companionships appear not to be as long-lasting as in African Elephants. Younger attendant males in African Elephants are sometimes reported to have enlarged genitalia." (Biological Exuberance - 428 -429)
Spotted Hyena (Crocuta crocuta): "Homosexual mounting between females also occur in this species; in some cases an adolescent or younger adult mounts an older one." (Biological Exuberance - 446)
Rufous Bettongs or Rat Kangaroo (Aepyprymnus rufescens): "Some homosexual interactions in Rufous Bettongs involve adult females courting and mounting juvenile females and vice versa." (Biological Exuberance - 454)
Gray Squirell (Sciurus carolinensis): "Gray Squirells are sequentially or chronologically bisexual: juveniles, adolescents, and young adults (up to one and a half years old) show a preference for homosexual activity, while older adults generally exhibit much less same-sex mountings." (Biological Exuberance - 463)
Dwarf Cavy (Microcavia australis), Cui or Yellow-Toothed Cavy (Galea musteloides) and Aperea or Wild Cavy (Cavia Aperea): "In Dwarf Cavies, adult males are sexually attracted to juveniles of both sexes. A typical homosexual courtship begins with the adult and the younger male sitting quietly together - often right in front of the youngster's mother, who is not visibly disturbed. The two males may kiss and nuzzle their noses together, after which the adult begins to gently nibble on the juvenile's rump. This is often followed by a courtship behavior known as CHIN-RUMP FOLLOWING, in which the adult male places his chin on the youngster's rump, as they move together in circles or figure-eight patterns. If the male is especially aroused, he will stop to pat his paws against the juvenile's rump, sometimes even licking, sniffing, and nuzzling the anus and perineal region while lifting up the youngster's hindquarters with his nose. Adult males frequently have favorite males that they prefer to court and interact sexually with, actively seeking them out while ignoring others. (p. 467) [...] Adult male Apereas sometimes court younger males by RUMPING, in which the adult throws one or both hind legs over the rump of the youngsters. [...] Adult males occasionally also have an adolescent companion; the two males sit and feed together, as well as kiss one another. Sometimes the adult male will permit his companion to mount a female that he is courting. (p. 468) [...] Adult males in two other species of Cavies, the Mocó or Rock Cavy (Kerodon rupestris) and the Preá (Galea spixii), also sometimes court juvenile males, and youngsters mount adults of both sexes as well." (Biological Exuberance - 469)
Ring-Billed Gull (Larus delawarensis): "For example, one or both partners in a homosexual pair are often younger females: couples in which there is an age difference between the two females - one an adult, the other an adolescent or younger adult - are particularly common in some populations." (Biological Exuberance - 545)
Guianan Cock-of-the-rock (Rupicola rupicola): "Homosexual activity between adult and adolescent males, as well as among adolescent males, is a routine occurence in Guianan Cock-of-the-Rock. Males court and display to each other, as well as engage in homosexual mounting. (p. 567) [...] If an adolescent male approaches an adult who is courting a female, the female usally leaves (or is chased away), and the two males turn their attentions to each other." (Biological Exuberance - 568)
Swallow-Tailed Manakin (Chiroxiphia caudata): "Male Swallow-tailed Manakins perform an elaborate group courtship ritual, the JUMP DISPLAY. Sometimes this display is directed toward females, sometimes toward yearling or younger adult males (the latter resembling females in their green plumage, but distinct because of their red-orange caps), and less commonly toward another adult male." (Biological Exuberance - 572)
Bicolored Antbird (Gymnopithys bicolor) and Ocellated Antbird (Phaenostictus mcleannani): "Homosexual pair-bonds are sometimes long-lasting associations, persisting for many years. Partners may both be adults, or an older bird may pair with a younger one. In Ocellated Antbirds, father-son courtship-feedings also sometimes occur when a younger male remains within the clan structure." (Biological Exuberance - 576)
Original post by konvictz0007
I said if we are to consider homosexuality being a choice then there is a gene of some sort. Of course genetics is not the science I am studying therefore my knowledge in that specific area is limited, as is yours. I said gene of some sort, it may not be a gene but if it is a choice then by your initial definition of orientation then clearly there is something that fixes ones sexual attractions to their own sex. It is that something which I am referring to when I say gene or some sorts. (Of course since we have established there is nothing to conclusively suggest this 'gene of some sort' exists, I am simply investigating the case if it were to exist).
1. I will assume you meant 'not a choice'.
2. 'Gene of some sort' means a gene meaning genetic. And like I said it may not necessarily be genetic. But I see what you meant. You merely used the wrong words.
3. Actually the general consensus on this forum seems to be that both NYU and I have provided enough evidence to make the assertion that sexual orientation is not a choice, and therefore that something or many things determine one's sexual orientation.
I did not say anywhere that I feel homosexuals were not part of the human species. It was my suggestion that whatever it is that is preventing them from being sexually attracted to the opposite sex is a drawback of some sort which is preventing them from breeding and producing fertile offspring - the definition of a species.
You implied it with your post. By what you said given the definition of a homo sapiens, otherwise known as the human species, a homosexual could not be a homo sapien. So following logically what you said that is what you implied.
And yes infertile people do fall into this category as they are unable to produce as per the definition of a species. That is why doctors and medical researchers look for solutions to help them achieve the definition of a species. You mention that human biologists and medical researchers have found a way for people in this category to reproduce in this manner which includes homosexuals. You are wrong as is it impossible for homosexuals to interbreed and produce fertile offspring. Try again.
A homosexual could in fact have a child. Also two females can have children related to both of them. But it being related to both parents doesn't make change the fact that both homosexuals could in fact produce a child. So what I said is valid.
And this previous point had nothing to do with incestuous relationships, it was a separate point - has it become illegal to make more than one point per post? And also I had noticed you intentionally did not respond to that point, you questioned the reasoning of the point rather than addressing the point it self.
Ah I didn't realize. I apologize, the way I read the post I thought the rest was addressing your first statement on incestuous relationships hence my confusion.
Original post by Jamie
But it is disputable. Studies have shown that damage generally only occurs when a child is coerced to engage in sexual activity, e.g rape. Consensual sexual activity generally has no negative side affects, and in fact in many cases "victims" self-report that they had a positive experience. Amazingly, this is very similar for adults.
Original post by Jamie
Original post by Jamie
Original post by Jamie
Children are more likely to commit "child abuse" because in that household sexual activity is normalised as an acceptable activity. Therefore the child sees no wrong in engaging in mutually enjoyable sexual activity with other children. However they don't grow up to be child abusers or paedophiles, they have merely developed sexually much earlier than normal.
Original post by Tommyjw
Lol, try harder next time rather than using failed examples. Learn what the word means before thinking your imaginary example of a mouse having sex with baby mice is comparable.
What paedophilia?
As in for an adult to have sex or attempt to have sex with a sexually immature juvenile.
The difference between me and you is you are talking about abstract concepts you have read about. In the last month alone I have had to deal with 2 child abuse cases involving children aged under 10 years. [I work as an emergency childrens doctor]
Paedophilia is a natural phenomenon occuring in multiple species.
But many species eat their young and maul each other to death.
Saying it occurs in nature does not apologise for nor excuse it in humans..
Original post by Jamie
A couple of articles does not evidence make.
How many articles, research papers, peer-reviewed scientific studies and highly accredited expert psychologists and anthropologists all saying the same thing will it take?
You have to at least admit, so much conclusive evidence at least raises the possibility. The possibility that conventional wisdom might be wrong. You have to ask yourself, has the conventional wisdom of society ever been wrong?
Original post by Stefan1991
But it is disputable. Studies have shown that damage generally only occurs when a child is coerced to engage in sexual activity, e.g rape. Consensual sexual activity generally has no negative side affects, and in fact in many cases "victims" self-report that they had a positive experience. Amazingly, this is very similar for adults.
You do not understand consent in children.
Original post by Stefan1991
How many articles, research papers, peer-reviewed scientific studies and highly accredited expert psychologists and anthropologists all saying the same thing will it take?
You have to at least admit, so much conclusive evidence at least raises the possibility. The possibility that conventional wisdom might be wrong. You have to ask yourself, has the conventional wisdom of society ever been wrong?
You have to at least admit, so much conclusive evidence at least raises the possibility. The possibility that conventional wisdom might be wrong. You have to ask yourself, has the conventional wisdom of society ever been wrong?
Flipside.
What harm is caused by NOT allowing grown adults to have sex with young children
Original post by Stefan1991
How many articles, research papers, peer-reviewed scientific studies and highly accredited expert psychologists and anthropologists all saying the same thing will it take?
You have to at least admit, so much conclusive evidence at least raises the possibility. The possibility that conventional wisdom might be wrong. You have to ask yourself, has the conventional wisdom of society ever been wrong?
You have to at least admit, so much conclusive evidence at least raises the possibility. The possibility that conventional wisdom might be wrong. You have to ask yourself, has the conventional wisdom of society ever been wrong?
Above 5%
There is a 5% possibility of a type 1 error - saying that an effect exists when it doesn't. If over 5% of the credible research shows the opposite to the paradigm then it will be taken seriously.
Of course that's assuming the research is flawless and there are no confounds.
Original post by Stefan1991
Thanks for ignoring the question. How are any of those things comparable to choosing to engage in sexual activity? e.g. masturbation, touching etc
So having sex didn't impact on your life in any way? You didn't have any feelings for her and she was just taking the pill and you didn't even bother to think about contraception?
Original post by Jamie
As in for an adult to have sex or attempt to have sex with a sexually immature juvenile.
So you dont even understand the term, good to know, now i know why you talk such nonsense.
Original post by Jamie
Flipside.
What harm is caused by NOT allowing grown adults to have sex with young children
What harm is caused by NOT allowing grown adults to have sex with young children
Same harm that might be caused banning anyone from being able to express their sexuality? I'm not saying it should be allowed, I'm merely pointing that it's factually incorrect to suggest it is universally or inherently harmful.
Why sexual activity would magically be okay for those over 16 and magically harmful for those under 16, is beyond me. Because it is beyond reason.
Original post by Jamie
You do not understand consent in children.
Why don't you explain for us? I can understand why a child under 18 cannot consent to invasive medical procedures, but to say it is impossible to consent to sexual activity? I do not.
Original post by Stefan1991
Why don't you explain for us? I can understand why a child under 18 cannot consent to invasive medical procedures, but to say it is impossible to consent to sexual activity? I do not.
You think its limited to invasive medical procedures? When I was 15 I wasn't allowed any say in whether or not I was given a vaccine. I couldn't fill a prescription for antacids. I requested a blood test for anaemia on the advice of my mum's friend who was a nurse, and was told I wasn't old enough to ask for one...
The law isn't plucked out of thin air you know? There may be a bit of leeway in terms of individual differences, but there is a reason it is there.
Original post by minimarshmallow
Above 5%
There is a 5% possibility of a type 1 error - saying that an effect exists when it doesn't. If over 5% of the credible research shows the opposite to the paradigm then it will be taken seriously.
Of course that's assuming the research is flawless and there are no confounds.
There is a 5% possibility of a type 1 error - saying that an effect exists when it doesn't. If over 5% of the credible research shows the opposite to the paradigm then it will be taken seriously.
Of course that's assuming the research is flawless and there are no confounds.
I'd love to see a single study which says the opposite. I have yet to.
In this discussion I currently have 100% of the credible research. You'll need about 400 studies directly contradicting what they all say in order to push them all into your 5% type 1 error. Although the probability of all these different studies and expert researchers coincidentally making some strange mistakes forcing them all to the same conclusions seems quite low.
Care to offer some recent studies which disprove the hypothesis?
Original post by minimarshmallow
You think its limited to invasive medical procedures? When I was 15 I wasn't allowed any say in whether or not I was given a vaccine. I couldn't fill a prescription for antacids. I requested a blood test for anaemia on the advice of my mum's friend who was a nurse, and was told I wasn't old enough to ask for one...
The law isn't plucked out of thin air you know? There may be a bit of leeway in terms of individual differences, but there is a reason it is there.
The law isn't plucked out of thin air you know? There may be a bit of leeway in terms of individual differences, but there is a reason it is there.
I'm still failing to see how this applies to simple sexual stimulation and contact between persons...
I see you're still avoiding the difficult questions. They're difficult for a reason, there is no rational answer to give.
Original post by minimarshmallow
So having sex didn't impact on your life in any way? You didn't have any feelings for her and she was just taking the pill and you didn't even bother to think about contraception?
As I've said, there were only positives.
Original post by Stefan1991
I'd love to see a single study which says the opposite. I have yet to.
In this discussion I currently have 100% of the credible research. You'll need about 400 studies directly contradicting what they all say in order to push them all into your 5% type 1 error. Although the probability of all these different studies and expert researchers coincidentally making some strange mistakes forcing them all to the same conclusions seems quite low.
Care to offer some recent studies which disprove the hypothesis?
In this discussion I currently have 100% of the credible research. You'll need about 400 studies directly contradicting what they all say in order to push them all into your 5% type 1 error. Although the probability of all these different studies and expert researchers coincidentally making some strange mistakes forcing them all to the same conclusions seems quite low.
Care to offer some recent studies which disprove the hypothesis?
I don't have any to hand but I would probably be able to find some using google scholar or google books when it isn't half 5 in the morning.
And non of the studies you have presented are flawless, because no study is. The 5% type 1 error rate is the convention, but would only apply to studies that have absolutely no confounding variables at play. So I don't need 400.
Read the entire post next time.
Original post by Stefan1991
I'm still failing to see how this applies to simple sexual stimulation and contact between persons...
I see you're still avoiding the difficult questions. They're difficult for a reason, there is no rational answer to give.
I see you're still avoiding the difficult questions. They're difficult for a reason, there is no rational answer to give.
As I said earlier, did you having sex have no impact on your life whatsoever? I assume you had no feelings for her, and you knew for certain she'd had no sexual contact before you so had no chance of STIs and was infertile so you didn't have to think about pregnancy. No? Well then...
Original post by Stefan1991
As I've said, there were only positives.
And these could just have easily been negatives.
I know plenty of people who had sex underage who got STIs or got pregnant/got their girlfriend pregnant or were used and heartbroken - but couldn't see any of this coming beforehand due to the underdeveloped frontal lobe!
Original post by Tommyjw
So you dont even understand the term, good to know, now i know why you talk such nonsense.
"As a medical diagnosis, pedophilia, or paedophilia, is defined as a psychiatric disorder in adults or late adolescents (persons age 16 or older) typically characterized by a primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children (generally age 13 years or younger, though onset of puberty may vary)"
You are a rather negative character aren't you.
You tell others they are wrong and talk rubbish but never correct or give your own opinion.
Original post by Jamie
Indeed. And lets look at your last point.
'As in for an adult to have sex or attempt to have sex with a sexually immature juvenile.'
See the difference? Pretty obvious tbh.
Original post by Stefan1991
Same harm that might be caused banning anyone from being able to express their sexuality? I'm not saying it should be allowed, I'm merely pointing that it's factually incorrect to suggest it is universally or inherently harmful.
Why sexual activity would magically be okay for those over 16 and magically harmful for those under 16, is beyond me. Because it is beyond reason.
Why sexual activity would magically be okay for those over 16 and magically harmful for those under 16, is beyond me. Because it is beyond reason.
Its a completely arbritrary line drawn by this society. This society as others have set the bar lower.
But one should differentiate between two sorts of underage sex. That with a sexually mature teenager like a 14 year old is very different to that with a sexually immature 8 year old.
Original post by Stefan1991
Why don't you explain for us? I can understand why a child under 18 cannot consent to invasive medical procedures, but to say it is impossible to consent to sexual activity? I do not.
Why don't you explain for us? I can understand why a child under 18 cannot consent to invasive medical procedures, but to say it is impossible to consent to sexual activity? I do not.
Therein lies the problem. You view sexual intercourse as a completely benign entity. Whereas it technically has more risk and consequences than many medical procedures such as taking a bloodtest.
THere are various aspects to consent which require a level of maturity, understanding and dealing with long term consequences.
Its not simple. You don't become competent to consent at a specific age, and not all children will be at the same level of others of the same age.
Again, arbritray lines for 16 were created, with specific tests and rules applied to consent in under 16 years of age.
I can't see a 40 year old guy checking the 12 year old he is about to bang is Fraser competent.
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