RN or RAF?

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GDT, now called ODT (Operational) (or it was last time I looked, probably changed 3 more times by now) is just Gas and Guns, plus some first aid. BH made the point, you don't spend several million pounds training someone to fly an aircraft only to expect them to get involved with section battle drills. OK, so that's the aircrew perspective, but BH's point is well made, RAF Officers are trained for specific roles, there is no equivalent common infantry or bridge position that all RAF Officers are required to obtain skills in, because an air campaign simply does not work like that. What we all need to know is how to use our personal weapon, how to do the appropriate NBC drills and some first aid.

There might be some mucking about in the mud at IOT, but that is just a cheap and easy way to apply pressure to test leadership skills, courage, determination etc

If we require specific field living training because ops are going on outside a 5 star hotel, than that is a) bl**dy bad form and b) trained for prior to deployment :smile:

Reply 21

defnek

Thanks, everyone. I'm really interested in doing history or english at uni; they are the subjects i like best now (i'm doing AS levels). By the way, about 'crawling around in the mud'...i'm not so much into that, but i do love camping and adventure training etc (i've done DofEs, and gone on courses in places like north wales and the Highlands).

Reply 22

Shéamais

To be honest what's military training without mud?

Surely RAF officers should get trained like army officer and then specialise later. You get army pilots, engineering officers, communications officers and so on and they can all soldier (or should be able to).

Go on give your wishy washy reasons against training RAF personnel to fight properly. Unless of course you have some genuine reasons why they shouldn't.

Reply 23

KSpin

Because they don't need to, therefore a waste of money and time?

Reply 24

Wzz

I can fight properly. I'm very handy with the L85 and the variety of pistols I'm meant to be able to shoot people with.

There will never be a situation, ever, where I'm going to have to lead a section battle drill. It's completely, utterly pointless.

My training took something in the region of 6 years. Why expand it with something outwith my job description, which I'd then have to practice to keep current? My actual job keeps me busy enough, and the annual CCS top-up is more than enough.

By your reckoning, why don't we train all Army officers to steer submarines? And why can't all Naval engineers also train as Typhoon pilots?

I'm a specialist (regardless of what they tell me!), and I'm happy being good at my specialisation. If you believe that being a military officer starts and ends with section battle drills then you're very much mistaken.

Reply 25

Shéamais

Army pilots can do it, surely that means they are better then.

Reply 26

Wzz

Army officer pilots are generally only in flying posts for single tours before disappearing back to the usual Army career-chasing appointments. Hence they need to be trained as infanteers as they'll be one again shortly.

I am not going to be an infantry officer at any point in my career. Likewise, if AAC officer pilots were only going to be pilots, it'd be a waste of time them learning all of that at Sandhurst.

Blatant attempts at inflammatory comments aside, saying one pilot is better than another because he can lead a section battle drill is like saying one pilot is better than another because he's good at cricket.

It's got nothing to do with your specialisation, and nothing to do with being a good pilot. A GR7 QWI is not a worse pilot than a new Lynx AAC mate because he can't lead a section into battle. He's much better because he can lead a formation of up to 30-odd aircraft into battle.

Relevance!

Reply 27

Shéamais

To be honest, leading a section is a corporal's job, but any officer should have the ability to do it.

Leading a platoon/troop is what your all getting confused with, an army officer has post commissioning training for the platoon stuff. And so it's fair enough if RAF/RN officers can't do it.

Reply 28

Wzz

DPM

To be honest, leading a section is a corporal's job, and so any officer should have the ability to do it.

I disagree. My SAC ops assistants book flight plans, I have corporals who service engines, and I've watched a team pull a gearbox out of a Tornado. I couldn't do any of those jobs because I'm not trained for them. There's no need for me to be trained for them because I work with people who are.

DPM

Leading a platoon/troop is what your all getting confused with, an army officer has post commissioning training for the platoon stuff. And so it's fair enough if RAF/RN officers can't do it.

Yes; I'm sure I mentioned the PCBC at some point. This is what I've been saying all along; your comments such as:

DPM

Surely crawling around in the mud is the best bit of training?

Surely doing section attacks are better than sitting in lectures?

... are blinkered and show that you don't know what an RAF officer does. Lectures have been infinitely more useful to me than lying in mud!

Likewise,

DPM

What about Ground defence training?

Surely you do some proper fieldcraft in that part of the course?

... shows a lack of appreciation with what we do on ops. Fieldcraft is no use to us at all. I've been trained in escape and evasion, sure, and front line aircrew do things like that to a very, very high standard. But that's all; it's relevant for me to know how to escape and survive after ejection, but it's unlikely I'm going to encounter a group of people without an officer who need a section battle drill actioned.

Lastly,

DPM

Surely RAF officers should get trained like army officer and then specialise later. You get army pilots, engineering officers, communications officers and so on and they can all soldier (or should be able to).

Go on give your wishy washy reasons against training RAF personnel to fight properly. Unless of course you have some genuine reasons why they shouldn't.

... demonstrates that whatever Army training you've done so far involves a fair bit of indoctrination! You evidently don't understand what workshare you'd have on joint ops, or what anyone in the RAF really does.

A reason why the RAF shouldn't be trained to "fight properly?" Because it's the Army's job. Everyone in the RAF can protect themselves, and everyone can fight. It's a completely stupid idea to suggest that we should all be able to fill in for the equivalent Army rank.

DPM

And so it's fair enough if RAF/RN officers can't do it.

I think we'll leave it at that.

Reply 29

Shéamais

Wzz

... are blinkered and show that you don't know what an RAF officer does. Lectures have been infinitely more useful to me than lying in mud!

You've misunderstood me, lectures normally are important, but I'm talking about enjoyment now, it's more fun to be running around firing blanks than sitting in lectures.

Reply 30

Wzz

DPM

You've misunderstood me, lectures normally are important, but I'm talking about enjoyment now, it's more fun to be running around firing blanks than sitting in lectures.

Well, it'd be boring if we all liked the same things. I was quite content working through lectures for things like groundschool as it brings you a step closer to flying; and right now, it'd take an awful lot of effort to get me anywhere near mud. In fact it takes a fair bit of effort to get me into CS95 in the first place.

Reply 31

Onearmedbandit

Do they let disabled people into the SAS? I'm just kidding :p:

I couldn't stand being a paratrooper, and that's what most SAS soldiers are, right? Is 'soldier' the right word? This totally the wrong thread for this.

I'd like to be in the RAF if only as some kind of intelligence or as a lawyer (they must like people with law degrees?) but I was wondering what are the basic requirements for entry into any of the armed forces?

Reply 32

Wzz

Errrr... you may indeed have picked the wrong thread. How about a visit to the top of the screen and the search function? You'll find out about entry requirements on various threads.

Reply 33

Shéamais

After hearing all this about the RAF, the RAF as one of my choices after university is becoming less likely. I thought you'd at least get trained basic fieldcraft. Air cadets gives a better impression of Army officer life than RAF officer life, from my experience anyway.

RAF Regiment is still an option though.

Reply 34

Shéamais

Onearmedbandit

I couldn't stand being a paratrooper, and that's what most SAS soldiers are, right? Is 'soldier' the right word?

SAS Soldiers are Troopers, and prospective Troopers can come from any unit in the British Army, Royal Marines, and RAF Regiment, not just the Parachute Regiment.

Onearmedbandit

I was wondering what are the basic requirements for entry into any of the armed forces?

•

Physical and Medical Fitness

•

Mental Aptitude for specific job

•

Confidence

•

Motivation

Must be some more but can't think of any at the moment.

Reply 35

Rizza Razzu

I joined the RAF as potential aircrew, i can tell you all that i did plenty of crawling around in mud and a fair bit of fieldcraft during my basic training.

Reply 36

BlackHawk

DPM

I wouldn't base your career on what's been said on an internet forum. I would suggest that you have a look at what RAF Officers really do and go on a base visit. Officers don't do masses of fieldcraft as the RAF has a different management structure to the Army. Officers are trained and do what they need to, not what someone thinks they 'should' do because they are Officers. There are Officers that are trained in the field, such as the RAF Reg and 1 ACC of the FCs, but only because that is what their job entails. During pilot and WSO training you do Hawkeye and LSE which teaches you how to survive if you eject and have to survive some time before rescue. If you make it to a front line FJ squadron then you've got the 'conduct after capture' course where you learn what it's like and how to deal with torture.

So Officers are trained for what they need.

Reply 37

Onearmedbandit

DPM

SAS Soldiers are Troopers, and prospective Troopers can come from any unit in the British Army, Royal Marines, and RAF Regiment, not just the Parachute Regiment.

I know, but I've read that 90% of SAS peepo are former paratroopers.

Reply 38

Shéamais

Onearmedbandit

I know, but I've read that 90% of SAS peepo are former paratroopers.

Highly likely, 90% seems a bit high though.

Reply 39

GR4pilot

After reading Thunder and Lightning I'd go with what they did. Let them interrogate you until it begins to hurt then give them loads of gen that's on the website or news. From what they said it seemed to serve them well.