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Original post by und

Spoiler


Yeah simultaneous equations will work fine. Playing the exam game slightly, it's usually safe to assume that solutions will exist if they ask you to find said solutions explicitly in STEP; although I wouldn't be surprised if they expected verification of the values you found in this case - IIRC, the examiner's report for this paper pointed out that the last part of this question was completed in full by very few candidates.

Did my alternative hint make much sense? It's a lot easier to verify that the chosen a,b,c satisfy a suitable cubic than it is for that (n+1)th multivariable thing they expect you to prove. :p:

I guess I have got better at spotting things but not good enough yet. It's something that I will improve in as I do more and more questions.

Without doubt. :smile:

Original post by und
But how do you know that it's some rational multiple of root 2 in the first place?

Because that's how the value of the sine function at pi/4 is defined - this isn't an assumption in any form so it doesn't require "proof".
Original post by Lord of the Flies
It damn sure is. :biggrin:


Yes, it boils down to the irrationality of 2\sqrt{2}. If cos(π/2n)\cos(\pi/2^n) was rational, then 2\sqrt{2} will turn out to be rational. :tongue:
Original post by Lord of the Flies
It damn sure is. :biggrin: I suppose you could argue something like the following:

cosπ4=12(((4cos2π2n2)22)2)21\cos \dfrac{\pi}{4}=\dfrac{1}{2}\left( \cdots \left( \left(4\cos^2\dfrac{\pi}{2^{n}}-2\right)^2-2\right)^2\cdots \right)^2-1

LHS is irr. so the first bracket is irr \to second is irr. \cdots\to last bracket is irr.


Da*** is that hideous mess?
Original post by .Username.
1988 step I, q1, I drew the graph and found the first solution n=m, I'm sure there are more but I don't know how to go about it


where the hell do you find the 1988 papers or any papers earlier than 1998 in fact?
Original post by nahomyemane778
where the hell do you find the 1988 papers or any papers earlier than 1998 in fact?


Download the Megapack in the OP.
Original post by Lord of the Flies
Download the Megapack in the OP.


much obliged
Original post by und
Oh, OK. For some reason I thought it was some exercise in analysis where we couldn't assume the properties of trigonometric functions!


But how do you know that it's some rational multiple of root 2 in the first place?


You mean irrational, well sin(45) = 0.5*squrt 2. 0.5 is rational, root two is irrational so the product of a rational and an irrational is irrational.
Reply 5987
Original post by Farhan.Hanif93
Yeah simultaneous equations will work fine. Playing the exam game slightly, it's usually safe to assume that solutions will exist if they ask you to find said solutions explicitly in STEP; although I wouldn't be surprised if they expected verification of the values you found in this case - IIRC, the examiner's report for this paper pointed out that the last part of this question was completed in full by very few candidates.

Did my alternative hint make much sense? It's a lot easier to verify that the chosen a,b,c satisfy a suitable cubic than it is for that (n+1)th multivariable thing they expect you to prove. :p:

Your method certainly makes a lot more sense in the context of the question, and as I said in hindsight the equalities they get you to find are a dead give away. To be honest I'm not surprised very few people managed it. The first two parts are very easy, so candidates must have thought "I'll just do these bits and I'll have plenty of time to work something out for the last part" and then got a shock, because it's either a mess and takes quite a while (the way I did it), or not necessarily easy to spot (the intended method). At least now I know what to look for when those expressions come up in a question! It also doesn't help that at first I thought n was a natural number because I was doing a slightly differently worded copy of the question where it was not stated that the relation held for 'all' n. Therefore I ended up looking for some sort of inductive proof that would work, and that really wasted my time.

On a related note, I've seen some questions recently where the wording is a complete mess, meaning either the questions are difficult to understand, or they don't make any sense at all. Examples are STEP II 2000 Q10 (I showed it to a couple of people and all of them drew different and incorrect diagrams, before I realised what it was actually meant to look like), and STEP I 2007 Q4, where the two equations cannot be identical because it is given that acb2ac\neq b^2 and the only way they can be identical is if a=b=ca=b=c.
Original post by jack.hadamard
I use injective and surjective for that matter.


Original post by Lord of the Flies

Spoiler



I use epic and monic :teehee:

In fact, one often says "there exists a homo such that..."
(edited 11 years ago)
Reply 5989
Original post by mashmammad
You mean irrational, well sin(45) = 0.5*squrt 2. 0.5 is rational, root two is irrational so the product of a rational and an irrational is irrational.

When I said a rational multiple I meant a number of the form pq2\frac{p}{q}\sqrt{2} where p,qZp,q\in \mathbb{Z} and gcd(p,q)=1gcd(p,q)=1.

But what I meant was that I thought you couldn't assume that sinπ4=22sin\frac{\pi}{4}=\frac{\sqrt{2}}{2}.
Original post by und
STEP I 2007 Q4, where the two equations cannot be identical because it is given that acb2ac\neq b^2 and the only way they can be identical is if a=b=ca=b=c.


This has been discussed before: people are confused by the or statement:

x=1x=±1x=1\Rightarrow x=\pm 1 is a true statement, even though x1x\neq -1

inb4 ukdragon and his logic shiz

Original post by ukdragon37
I use epic and monic :teehee:

In fact, one often says "there exists a homo such that..."


:lol:

Reminds me of this:

Spoiler

(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Lord of the Flies
This has been discussed before: people are confused by the or statement:

x=1x=±1x=1\Rightarrow x=\pm 1 is a true statement, even though x1x\neq 1

inb4 ukdragon and his logic shiz


That was me who brought that issue up... long ago :rolleyes:


---------


I thought I almost got a STEP III question, but it has defeated me alas. Q10 STEP III speciment paper. The 1st part was simple, but the explanation in the answers used loads of modulo stuff. When I just gave a small explanation which I thought woudl explain it enough... me being overly simplistic I suppose. Oh and the divisibility proof seems to not be able to be cracked by the an induction proof of Uk+1 - Uk. Which most divisibility proofs are normally proved by.

Sigh I shouldnt have gotten my hopes up :frown: need to go back to that STEP I 2008 paper, so I can show him that i've actually done something on the correct paper for Tuesday :tongue:
Original post by Genesis2703
I thought I almost got a STEP III question, but it has defeated me alas. Q10 STEP III speciment paper. The 1st part was simple, but the explanation in the answers used loads of modulo stuff. When I just gave a small explanation which I thought woudl explain it enough... me being overly simplistic I suppose. Oh and the divisibility proof seems to not be able to be cracked by the an induction proof of Uk+1 - Uk. Which most divisibility proofs are normally proved by.


I recommend you learn modular arithmetic, it will make any question which mentions divisibility a whole lot easier. Also, the basics (which is all you'll need in STEP) can be learnt in 5 minutes. Then it's just a matter of getting used to.
Reply 5993
Original post by Lord of the Flies
This has been discussed before: people are confused by the or statement:

x=1x=±1x=1\Rightarrow x=\pm 1 is a true statement, even though x1x\neq 1

inb4 ukdragon and his logic shiz

I don't think that's an excuse for the poor wording of this particular question. It should simply ask: "deduce that k=1".
Hey I need to say whether this is true or false with justification

There exists a polynomial P such that

|P(x)-cos(x)|<=10^(-6) for all real x

I have no idea where to start except I think it may have something to do with the approximation for cos(x).

Any tips or hints would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
Original post by und
I don't think that's an excuse for the poor wording of this particular question. It should simply ask: "deduce that k=1".


The wording is sometimes poor indeed. Another example (worse in my opinion) is I Q8 2005. You're explicitly told that x=1y=2x=1\Rightarrow y=2 yet y=1xy=-1-x is acknowledged as a solution to the equation. Still bugs me.
Original post by James7361539
Hey I need to say whether this is true or false with justification

There exists a polynomial P such that

|P(x)-cos(x)|<=10^(-6) for all real x

I have no idea where to start except I think it may have something to do with the approximation for cos(x).

Any tips or hints would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.


What is the limit of p(x)|p(x)| as xx\to \infty if pp is non constant?

What if pp is constant? (hint: range of cos)
Original post by Lord of the Flies
This has been discussed before: people are confused by the or statement:

x=1x=±1x=1\Rightarrow x=\pm 1 is a true statement, even though x1x\neq 1

inb4 ukdragon and his logic shiz


And here comes the logic shiz...

If x1x\neq 1 then the implication is vacuously true no? Because the assumption is false, instead of having demonstrated the point you are trying to make. Although I suspect you already know that :tongue:
(edited 11 years ago)
Reply 5998
Original post by James7361539
Hey I need to say whether this is true or false with justification

There exists a polynomial P such that

|P(x)-cos(x)|<=10^(-6) for all real x

I have no idea where to start except I think it may have something to do with the approximation for cos(x).

Any tips or hints would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Think about what happens as x tends to infinity. Which terms of the polynomial are relevant?
Original post by James7361539
Hey I need to say whether this is true or false with justification

There exists a polynomial P such that

|P(x)-cos(x)|<=10^(-6) for all real x

I have no idea where to start except I think it may have something to do with the approximation for cos(x).

Any tips or hints would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.


This question is covered in one of the Siklos booklets (I did this question on Friday). It's somewhere early on in the booklet I think (by which I mean within the first 20 questions...)

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